"Culinary Wasteland": Naples, Florida

[chefdg]

A fellow employee of mine once said that Naples is a "culinary wasteland". Is there any truth to this statement? I need proof.

[Tonyy13]

Well, I don't know about Naples, but I have been surely dissapointed w/ the Orlando Food Scene...Check out my previous thread for more info...

[Gifted Gourmet]

see what you think I have a friend who lives there and has some very good things to report about the restaurants ...

[ecruz1026]

If Baleen in Naples is like the one in Coconut Grove, then you have at least one winner. In my travels to Naples, I've never been overly impressed with the restaurants.

[chefdg]

Thanks for the article GG, but I must say that it is pretty ambiguous in describing the scene. I have lived and worked in this town for nearly 4 years and have not once experienced cutting edge cuisine, or anything that comes close to it. I could go on for days about my frustrations but I will leave that up to other members to post. Consider this a cry for help. I want Naples to have better food, and I know I cannot do it alone.

[orenlund]

Absolutely a culinary wasteland. I went hungry for the first three months I was here and I still have issues if I dont want one of three holes in the wall that Ive found. I don't blame the clientele either, as most of the cooks/chefs in the city do. There are plenty of old people in every city, this one has a sizable young population with money, at least every season. Also these people are from NY and DC and real cities, so many would appreciate someone working hard and giving them real food. What I've encountered is laziness and apathy, there are so many things you can blame, and NO ONE (as far as I've seen) actually doing it right, that everyone just looks to get by so they can have a full two day weekend, or go out after work before the bars close. Im leaving soon and a big reason is the restaurant scene is pathetic.

Wow, I wasn't expecting such a diatribe...sorry 'bout that.

-oren

[ecruz1026]

Absolutely a culinary wasteland. I went hungry for the first three months I was here and I still have issues if I dont want one of three holes in the wall that Ive found.  I don't blame the clientele either, as most of the cooks/chefs in the city do.  There are plenty of old people in every city, this one has a sizable young population with money, at least every season.  Also these people are from NY and DC and real cities, so many would appreciate someone working hard and giving them real food.  What I've encountered is laziness and apathy, there are so many things you can blame, and NO ONE (as far as I've seen) actually doing it right, that everyone just looks to get by so they can have a full two day weekend, or go out after work before the bars close.  Im leaving soon and a big reason is the restaurant scene is pathetic.

Wow, I wasn't expecting such a diatribe...sorry 'bout that.

-oren

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I gotta agree with you. Florida as a whole is pretty mediocre when it comes to restaurants. Laziness and apathy run rampant and cleanliness is sometimes an afterthought. Supermarkets are the same, no variety and no exploitation of locally grown produce. This state has a lot of potential when it comes to gastronomy, but it doesn't seem to have the drive. Good luck wherever you go.

[Busboy]

I hate to generalize, but in my Travels Through America, such as they are, there just aren't that many good restaurants scenes, period, outside of major cities. And often, in fast-growing areas like Naples is (I assume), chain-led mediocrity either camouflages or drives out of business good local stuff -- rib shacks, raw bars, the OK food but charming waitresses place where they call you "hun" and remember how you like your steaks cooked and your martini made -- so you can't even find them.

So, not that this is a particularly helpful post, but you can take comfort in the fact that you are not alone.

PS -- no disrespect to the many good high-end or worthy local spots scattered about the country in between the coasts. I know they they're out there, there's just too few of them.

[chefdg]

I waited for nearly 40 minutes for a pizza at lunch in a restaurant that has been here for 10 years only to find that the crust was previously frozen and the sauce was straight out of the can. The only thing good about it was the cheese. Right next to me was a table of very distinguised retirees that were having a conversation about their worldly travels and personall posessions with some young sales person who wanted their money and it hit me hard. (This is going to sound so corney but I will write it any way) we need to catch up people!! There are hungry people out there that need good, nutritious, creative, and locally inspired food. I wish I had a huge bull horn and a monte carlo that I could cruise around town with and yell at all the restaurants. "Wake up and smell the fucking coffee". I'm stuck in this hell for saken town and it must change.

[Gifted Gourmet]

If I am reading the same version of 'the food in Florida must change' written by so many people in a number of locations, I have to stop to inquire about how this has happened in the first place. And why it seems to be continuing.

Do you suppose that because Florida is so tourist-oriented that there is a general attitude among restaurant owners that whatever one offers will be perfectly adequate?

Opinions on this question? Chefdg?

Why is mediocre the standard, ecruz?

Why must "chain-led mediocrity either camouflages or drives out of business good local stuff", Busboy?

And orenlund, this is one of the saddest yet:"Im leaving soon and a big reason is the restaurant scene is pathetic."

There is money to be spent liberally, I am given to understand, in Naples ... and yet??

[Bill_H]

If I am reading the same version of 'the food in Florida must change' written by so many people in a number of locations, I have to stop to inquire about how this has happened in the first place. And why it seems to be continuing.

Do you suppose that because Florida is so tourist-oriented that there is a general attitude among restaurant owners that whatever one offers will be perfectly adequate?

Opinions on this question? Chefdg?

Why is mediocre the standard, ecruz?

Why must "chain-led mediocrity either camouflages or drives out of business good local stuff", Busboy?

And orenlund, this is one of the saddest yet:"Im leaving soon and a big reason is the restaurant scene is pathetic."

There is money to be spent liberally, I am given to understand, in Naples ... and yet??

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Well Melissa, it's really 4 things:

1) Your first point is correct. As much of the dining in Florida is done by tourists, and often tourists with families or retirees, the restaraunts are prone to maximize their one-time profit and not worry about return business.

2) Almost all the people who complain so vociferously about Florida food are from somewhere else, and what they're really whining about is that they can't get what they had when they were at "home" It's actually not limited to the food down here, I hear it constantly from transplants about the weather and the culture and the sports and the people and the blah blah blah. If it's so great where you came from, really, go back. We like it here and won't miss you. If you're going to stay, stop complaining, learn to appreciate what we have here, and maybe do your part to make it better?

3) Florida has another issue from a food perspective - it's a very young state as far as growth, and since that is the fact it has been at the vanguard of the recent proliferation of chains throughout America, whether food, retail or whatever. If you want a depressing thought, Florida will not become NYC, but rather eventually NYC will become Florida - if you don't believe look at the recent success of retail and restaurant chains in Manhattan. Darden is headquartered in Orlando, Outback is from Tampa, and Hooters started in Clearwater. They are all taking over America. We are all being Super-Sized, it's up to us to fight the power

4) Florida is also a state of have and have-nots, and while there are pockets of wealth on the coasts, it is still a quite poor state in-between, both in rural areas as well as retirees on fixed incomes. Since much of the wealth is at an advanced age, restaurants that serve sophisticated diners outside of Miami have a hard time getting a steady flow of customers.

It's a complex issue, but if you look hard enough, you can still get a great meal.

Edited January 27, 2005 by Bill_H (log)

[ecruz1026]

If I am reading the same version of 'the food in Florida must change' written by so many people in a number of locations, I have to stop to inquire about how this has happened in the first place. And why it seems to be continuing.

Do you suppose that because Florida is so tourist-oriented that there is a general attitude among restaurant owners that whatever one offers will be perfectly adequate?

Opinions on this question? Chefdg?

Why is mediocre the standard, ecruz?

Why must "chain-led mediocrity either camouflages or drives out of business good local stuff", Busboy?

And orenlund, this is one of the saddest yet:"Im leaving soon and a big reason is the restaurant scene is pathetic."

There is money to be spent liberally, I am given to understand, in Naples ... and yet??

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Well Melissa, it's really 4 things:

1) Your first point is correct. As much of the dining in Florida is done by tourists, and often tourists with families or retirees, the restaraunts are prone to maximize their one-time profit and not worry about return business.

2) Almost all the people who complain so vociferously about Florida food are from somewhere else, and what they're really whining about is that they can't get what they had when they were at "home" It's actually not limited to the food down here, I hear it constantly from transplants about the weather and the culture and the sports and the people and the blah blah blah. If it's so great where you came from, really, go back. We like it here and won't miss you. If you're going to stay, stop complaining, learn to appreciate what we have here, and maybe do your part to make it better?

3) Florida has another issue from a food perspective - it's a very young state as far as growth, and since that is the fact it has been at the vanguard of the recent proliferation of chains throughout America, whether food, retail or whatever. If you want a depressing thought, Florida will not become NYC, but rather eventually NYC will become Florida - if you don't believe look at the recent success of retail and restaurant chains in Manhattan. Darden is headquartered in Orlando, Outback is from Tampa, and Hooters started in Clearwater. They are all taking over America. We are all being Super-Sized, it's up to us to fight the power

4) Florida is also a state of have and have-nots, and while there are pockets of wealth on the coasts, it is still a quite poor state in-between, both in rural areas as well as retirees on fixed incomes. Since much of the wealth is at an advanced age, restaurants that serve sophisticated diners outside of Miami have a hard time getting a steady flow of customers.

It's a complex issue, but if you look hard enough, you can still get a great meal.

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Excellent post Bill. Your background is in sociology perhaps?

I agree, most of the people that gripe about food here are not from here. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'll fess up, I'm a born and bred Angeleno (but note that I am a Dolphins, Marlins and Heat fan) so growing up in one of the largest cities in the country can spoil you. It's not that I'm yearning for what I can get back home. Believe me, I've given up on finding good Mexican food here. But as an example, you take the typical Mexican place in L.A. and the typical Cuban place in Miami you can see a world of difference. The Mexican food tends to be prepared with more care, the facilities are usually cleaner and the staff attentive. It's embarassing what a Cuban place here offers.

Then there's the produce, organic food, farmers market phenomena. Not only in California, but all over the country, there are great, good-sized farmers markets with produce, meats, cheeses, etc. In a word, the farmers markets in my area suck. Not stink, suck. They're tiny, with virtually no selection. The bulk of the produce is something I can find in my local supermarket, but just a little cheaper. However, I'm committed to keeping these things going because I know what an important part of the community they can be so on Saturdays and Sundays I make my rounds in Coral Gables and Pincrest to buy my veggies.

I agree, Florida is a new state on the culinary map and it's as if there is a polarity between those trying to drag it into the world class destination and those that want to keep the status quo. I don't want Florida to become another California and I don't want Miami to become the 6th bourough, but if there's improvements that can be made by benchmarking practices in other places, then dang it, why not make 'em.

[Gifted Gourmet]

What a beautiful analysis, Bill, on the possible origins of this food situation as it currently exists in the state of Florida! I think much of your thinking tends to agree with what I have read about the culinary issues.

And I love those lines:

I hear it constantly from transplants about the weather and the culture and the sports and the people and the blah blah blah. If it's so great where you came from, really, go back. We like it here and won't miss you. If you're going to stay, stop complaining, learn to appreciate what we have here, and maybe do your part to make it better?

I have heard those same laments about how Atlanta isn't the great cities of the North (usually NYC and environs) ... but my usual response is close to yours on this ...

I enjoyed your comments, ecruz, on the topic as well, particularly these:

I agree, Florida is a new state on the culinary map and it's as if there is a polarity between those trying to drag it into the world class destination and those that want to keep the status quo. I don't want Florida to become another California and I don't want Miami to become the 6th bourough, but if there's improvements that can be made by benchmarking practices in other places, then dang it, why not make 'em.

Seems you both are on the right track when your desire for improvements to be made by those who need to and can do something to ameliorate the situation. I appreciate your insightful comments and suggestions to my questions!

[SobaAddict70]

Interesting that this thread popped up given the article below.

Where, after the application of a keen Gigondas to settle nerves frazzled by traffic, you might enjoy a perfect Provençal-style fish soup, dense with flavor, brightened by saffron, accompanied by a true, garlicky rouille, with croutons. (There is, too, a fine onion soup with Gruyère and toast.) A ridiculously flavorful crispy duck confit could follow, with a kind of pommes sarladaise - layered, yes, cooked in goose fat, no - and some mango fries that are far better than the image those words can conjure.

Choice Tables: Naples, Florida (Sam Sifton) (from the NYTimes DIGEST update for Wednesday, 26 January 2005. Scroll down for the appropriate link.)

The article discusses three restaurants: Bleu Provence, Pinchers Crab Shack and Artisans in the Dining Room, in the Ritz-Carlton Naples Hotel. If you've been there, what do you think of these?

Soba

[Gifted Gourmet]

Gee, Soba, never expected my pleas to be answered so quickly! Thank you for finding and bringing up this delightfully appropos article!

[robyn]

I don't know why everyone is picking on Naples. Naples (the city) has a population of 20,000 people. The county it's in (and it's a big county) has a population of 286,000 (much of it seasonal - December to April). How many places in the world with populations this large have a wealth of excellent restaurants?

One thing about Florida. There are a lot of people here - but they're all spread out. We in Jacksonville have a population about 1/10 the size of New York in an area about 10 times as big. And most of the state has bad ---> terrible traffic - which doesn't encourage people to drive 30 miles round trip to go to dinner.

As for food shopping - I think it's really good. A lot of good chains. Perhaps people looking for "artisan vegetables" aren't going to find them (because - for the most part - they're not grown here) - but you can't beat the fresh local shrimp this time of year (16-20 Mayport shrimp for $11/pound). Or local citrus (especially the "not for export" stuff that's blemished - and cheap - but every bit as flavorful as the "export" stuff).

I've lived in Florida for over 30 years now - and there's not one part of the state I haven't been to/through (many many times). Before anyone criticizes what one can/can't get here - one ought to familiarize oneself with the local food industries (especially since food is the second largest industry in the state - after tourism). Get out of Miami - or Naples - or whereever - and go see what grows in all that black muck around Lake Okeechobee (hint - it's not artisan vegetables). Robyn

Edited January 27, 2005 by robyn (log)

[joiei]

Robyn, I heartly second your opinion. If you are having trouble finding something in your markets, have you asked the market manager if he can get it?

And when your here, your sure not there. How many have tried the markets in south Dade county? Have you been to "Robert is here" in Homestead? Have you checked out the tropical fruits that are grown fresh here? Have you been to Fruit and Spice Park in South Dade county? Guys, this is Florida, not the delmarva peninsula or Napa Valley.

If you want to have changes in your local farmers markets, get involved, get on the board of directors or find another market and talk to the vendors. Tell them what kinds of fresh produce you would like to see. Most vendors will be happy to try something new if they know there might be a demand for it.

In terms of the local Cuban restaurants, do you only go to the tourists places, or do you search out little local family owned places? I used to go to a place on outer Flagler that was wonderful and I was one of the only non hispanics in the place. I dream about the flavors of the black beans.

Where ever one lives, it is your community and is only as good as you let it be. If you want change, you have to be that change sometimes.

God, was I getting preachy there or what. It is just that I love the uniqueness of the South of Florida and of All of Florida. There is such a diversity that you do not find in other states. Get out and explore. Talk to your chefs, challenge them to be more creative, not to reproduce what you were used to back home. There are too many cultural and ecological differences.

Florida is a cool place, learn its history. And that did not start with Boca. In fact, in 1898, the 3 largest cities in the state were in this order, Key West-18,000, Jacksonville-17,000 and Pensacola-12,000. Until the 60's it was primarily an agricultural economy and environment. And in the 80's, two food revolutions started there. Floribbean and Neuvo Latino which have been exported all over the world.

yes, there is some pretty bad food to be found in Florida, but from my travels, I have found that there is some pretty bad food to be found everywhere. And what some of the locals wax poetic over, i find pretty dull and yuck.

Where ever you are, make the most of it instead of whining about it.

[chefdg]

Where ever you are, make the most of it instead of whining about it.

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[chefdg]

If I am reading the same version of 'the food in Florida must change' written by so many people in a number of locations, I have to stop to inquire about how this has happened in the first place. And why it seems to be continuing.

Do you suppose that because Florida is so tourist-oriented that there is a general attitude among restaurant owners that whatever one offers will be perfectly adequate?

Opinions on this question? Chefdg?

"Butts in the seats" as one restaurant owner once put it. Thats the bottom line, and I could speculate the reasons and motives for this attitude but that would take all day. I think so many business people go into the restaurant business and ruin it, all they care about is money, returns, and profits, all important of coarse, but the food is the reason people go to restaurants and the food will bring them back.

[SobaAddict70]

Where ever you are, make the most of it instead of whining about it.

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"Whining" is the exact opposite for the reason this topic was started, sorry if you interpreted it as such.  And yes I have been to the markets (farmers and fruit stands), spoken to the owners, not managers, I was born in Homestead and traveled frequently with my father selling Florida produce from Kissimmee to Marathon.  I know Florida has so much to offer from the swamps of lake okechobee (sp) to the Gulf and the Atlantic, Immokalee tomatoes and Indian River fruit, but, here in Naples, we are not doing a good enough job of translating those wonderful things to the plates of the worldly traveled guests and that is what pisses me off.  At the moment I cannot afford my own restaurant so if I am not the owner than I can only fight so hard before I have to give in to frozen fish and out of state or out of country produce.

Secondly, I worked in the Dining Room at the Ritz and without a doubt the food is cutting edge and very nice but they are also a 5 star 4 diamond establishment.  And Bleu Provence is nice, but it is French, with no regional accents.  I will be checking out the third restaurant in the article.

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My point was that given the article's focus on Naples, it's not quite a culinary wasteland (to me). And where's smoke, as the saying goes, there's usually fire. (meaning that if there's three good restaurants, there must be more....somewhere.)

We are all in a position to enable things to improve. Vote with your wallet, if not your heart. Make your opinions heard, repeat them often enough and eventually someone will hear you. Expend the effort if you really care about the issue. It takes time, but eventually you'll accomplish your goal.

[Busboy]

If I am reading the same version of 'the food in Florida must change' written by so many people in a number of locations, I have to stop to inquire about how this has happened in the first place. And why it seems to be continuing.

Why must "chain-led mediocrity either camouflages or drives out of business good local stuff", Busboy?

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That's the $64,000 question, isn't it?

If I was feeling philosophical, I'd say that in a world where seat-belt laws are enforced, diving boards are taken out of public swimming pools, cookbooks are banned from public libraries and little league coaches are fingerprinted, we've lost our capacity for risk, and thus, adventure. Why risk the local joint with its odd recipes and uncertain cleanliness, when Applebie's offers a consistent replica of home cooking, nationally known brands and little cards on the doors that tell you exactly when the bathroom was cleaned?

If I was feeling snotty I'd say that -- despite the massive growth in the "gourmet" food, media and restaurant industries -- American palates are crap, and that most Americans prefer "perfect," tasteless produce to "hand-raised" food; they prefer grease, sugar and salt to flavor, technique and spice; and that they prefer the same food they grew up with -- every damn night -- to the joys of dicovering something odd and delicious.

If I was feeling pragmatic, I'd say that there's something to be said for finding a place that offers a known price-value ratio at a nearby intersection with a guaranteed minimum quality, as opposed to hunting through restaurants of unknown quality and price to find a hidden gem.

If I was feeling bitter, I'd say that too many independent restaurants are just as lousy as the chains, and that pre-fab, pre-fried food doesn't taste any better from Mom's Kitchen than it does from TGI Friday's, and, at least Friday's takes American Express.

If I was feeling demographic, I'd say that so many areas have grown so quickly that independent restauranteurs just can't keep up -- it takes the shark-attitude of a chain to smell blood when ground is first broken on the new intersection, and get a store put up before a local would-be restauranteur even knows a subdvision is coming in.

And, if I was feeling optimistic, I'd say that it's because the revolution has only just begun, and when we come down from the hills, The Cheesecake Factory will be a thing of the past.

PS: Making the most of where you are is certainly a categorical imperative. But just because there are a few good things doesn't mean that the scene as a whole doesn't suck.

Edited January 29, 2005 by Busboy (log)

[Random Alias]

And, if I was feeling optimistic, I'd say that it's because the revolution has only just begun, and when we come down from the hills, The Cheesecake Factory will be a thing of the past.

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Even a sandwhich shop has to be a chain to survive today. Sandwhiches - cheap, simple, almost foolproof, yet Joe Public would rather go to Subway. We're doomed - move to a big city.

[Busboy]

And, if I was feeling optimistic, I'd say that it's because the revolution has only just begun, and when we come down from the hills, The Cheesecake Factory will be a thing of the past.

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Even a sandwhich shop has to be a chain to survive today. Sandwhiches - cheap, simple, almost foolproof, yet Joe Public would rather go to Subway. We're doomed - move to a big city.

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See point 2, "if I was feeling snotty."

Fortunately, from my house in DC, I can walk to probably 50 independent restaurants in less than half an hour (I like to walk). Now, they're not all worth walking to, but it's a luxury I appreciate more every time I visit my parent's in the Atlanta suburbs, where it seems there's barely 50 non-chains in a 30 minute drive.

[robyn]

Fortunately, from my house in DC, I can walk to probably 50 independent restaurants in less than half an hour (I like to walk).  Now, they're not all worth walking to, but it's a luxury I appreciate more every time I visit my parent's in the Atlanta suburbs, where it seems there's barely 50 non-chains in a 30 minute drive.

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How many are worth walking to?

It doesn't surprise me that there aren't many great places in the large towns and smaller cities in the US. What does surprise me is how many mediocre (and frequently overpriced) places there are in large cities in the US. Even New York (where I long ago gave up on the romantic notion of stumbling around in a particular neighborhood hoping to wander into a terrific place I hadn't been to before). Ditto Atlanta (which has a fair number of excellent restaurants - but you just don't hop into a car - start driving around - and expect to get lucky and find them). Robyn

[TerrelK]

I have lived in Ft. Myers, NY and Seattle and there's no doubt the big cities have the best restaurants, but I do think FL is improving. If you want a real culinary treat of the chocolate variety go to Norman Love's chocolate factory & store near the Ft. Myers airport. We always assumed the food was so bad in SW FL because midwesterners came here while people from the East Coast went to Miami.