Good coffee in Paris?

[phaelon56]

Last minute request for suggestions.

1) best places for coffee in Paris (both generically and specifically)

2) what to order if I want good robust drip or presspot coffee? (the French word/phrase)

3) Where is good espresso available if anywhere? (Cafe Danton off Rue Ste. Germaine was suggested as one possibility)

4) Is there such a thing as a truly high quality Italian style cappuccino in Paris? (i.e. made with great espresso and properly steamed milk in the right proportions)

[Ptipois]

I have answers for 1) and 2) but not for 3) and 4).

1) Some of the best coffee to be purchased in Paris: Verlet, 256, rue Saint-Honoré.

2) All their coffees are good, some rare coffees may be bought only at their place. Ask them for advice. They will apply the right grind if you mention you're using a presspot (the best method, according to them).

[bleudauvergne]

Owen, I'll add my two cents about ordering coffee to drink. The coffee you order in cafes is good most everywhere. People who live or spend a lot of time in Paris may have suggestions about the best places to go for a good cup of coffee. There are a few ways you can order it.

Cafe - This will get you a little cup of strong coffee.

Cafe au lait - This will get you a little cup of strong coffee lengthened with hot milk in a bigger cup.

"Americano"- This will get you the strong coffee lengthened with hot water in the bigger cup.

Double (doo-ble)- This will get you a double shot of the little one in a bigger cup.

Cappuccino - Not a French specialty but they do it, quality varies, again I leave this to the Parisians to recommend a place that serves a good one.

I hope you have a wonderful time in Paris.

[Gary Marshall]

you'll be fine, they have starbucks now

[John Talbott]

Cafe - This will get you a little cup of strong coffee. 

 

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For someone like myself who likes his coffee, preferably Illy which available in some places, strong as in Naples (eg in Italian ristretto) ask for serré (that is dense).

[bleudauvergne]

Cafe - This will get you a little cup of strong coffee. 

 

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For someone like myself who likes his coffee, preferably Illy which available in some places, strong as in Naples (eg in Italian ristretto) ask for serré (that is dense).

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Serré - this will get you 10 droplets of pure caffeine which you have to lick out of the bottom of the little cup.

[Ptipois]

you'll be fine, they have starbucks now 

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Hehe, I agree with this...

My personal advice about coffee in France (and in Paris in particular) would be to pick coffee-oriented chains like Illy or Segafreddo, or places like Café de Colombie, where you'll be served only pure arabica coffee. We French have a problem with our coffee supply. Most of what you get in "troquets" (average cafes and brasseries) is brewed from robusta beans, because of our privileged commercial relationships with our former African colonies (Ivory Coast, Cameroun) that grow mostly robusta. This is a unique situation ; most European countries (with a stress on Italy) and America prefer arabica. Now, though some robustas may be drinkable, most of the time they're terribly bitter, acidic and rich in caffeine. This accounts for the characteristic (and, to me, horrid) taste of the French "petit noir". And when the espresso machine isn't properly maintained, the taste is even worse.

[porkpa]

I guess I'm probably one of the few who just likes a plain American type coffee such as Maxwell House. I hate Starbucks. I find it much too strong. I'll occasionally enjoy a capuccino, but my overall preference is Maxwell House black or its close equivalent. Whenever I'm in Paris I'm forced to have coffee in the morning at (dread) McDonalds. My wife feels the same way. My first trip in the morning is usually to Mickey D's returning with a sack of two containers of McDonalds coffee.

Porkpa

you'll be fine, they have starbucks now 

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Hehe, I agree with this...

My personal advice about coffee in France (and in Paris in particular) would be to pick coffee-oriented chains like Illy or Segafreddo, or places like Café de Colombie, where you'll be served only pure arabica coffee. We French have a problem with our coffee supply. Most of what you get in "troquets" (average cafes and brasseries) is brewed from robusta beans, because of our privileged commercial relationships with our former African colonies (Ivory Coast, Cameroun) that grow mostly robusta. This is a unique situation ; most European countries (with a stress on Italy) and America prefer arabica. Now, though some robustas may be drinkable, most of the time they're terribly bitter, acidic and rich in caffeine. This accounts for the characteristic (and, to me, horrid) taste of the French "petit noir". And when the espresso machine isn't properly maintained, the taste is even worse.

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Edited January 14, 2005 by Bux (log)

[Bux]

Last minute request for suggestions. 

1) best places for coffee in Paris (both generically and specifically)

2) what  to order if I want good robust drip or presspot coffee? (the French word/phrase)

3) Where is good espresso available if anywhere?  (Cafe Danton off Rue Ste. Germaine was suggested as one possibility)

4) Is there such a thing as a truly high quality Italian style cappuccino in Paris? (i.e. made with great espresso and properly steamed milk in the right proportions)

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Generally speaking, except for breakfast coffee in a hotel, you're going to get an espresso when you order coffee. You can order express (maybe one "ess") or just café. Either way, you're going to get espresso in a cafe and almost always in a restaurant. At the height of my francophilia, I used to love the flavor, simply because it was French, but it's not the best coffee in Europe by a long shot. To my taste the best coffee in Europe is not Italian, although the average espresso in Italy beats what you'll get in France every time. My favorite espresso have been in Spain. Unfortunately I have come to believe that there must be a lot of local coffee roasting going on in Spain as some areas have much better coffee than others. Also cafes generally served a better espresso than restaurants in Spain and Italian suppliers -- Illy for one -- are making great inroads, although I still prefer the best of the Spanish coffees.

Back to France which is the topic. Over the years I've seen a lot of ways to make coffee in French restaurants, but lately, I've only seen espresso machines in bars and restaurants. I wonder if anyone uses a presspot commercially. I suspect they're used in homes a lot. I think hotels use drip for breakfast coffee, but I'm not sure about that.

I very rarely drink coffee with milk. To depart once again, purely for educational reasons I have tried my wife's coffee (con leche) in Spain where coffee in the afternoon comes with milk unless ordered black (actually cafe solo) as opposed to France and Italy where it's served without milk unless you ask for it. In Galicia, I found the cafe con leche to be exceptionally good. In France, you can specify café au lait or café crème, (with milk or cream) but you will get whatever they normally serve and the milk will be steamed and sometimes frothy. Don't expect it will be milk or cream as ordered. The terms are interchangeable as far as cafes are concerned. For what it's worth, noisette will get you a cup of espresso with just enough milk to stain it nut color -- macchiato(?) in Italian.

Of course all of that refers to the run of the mill coffee. I'm sure there are specialty shops, but I haven't checked them out. More often than not, I prefer to have my breakfast at a bar than in my hotel, simply because it takes less time, it gets me out into the streets earlier and I'm not tempted to stuff myself at a buffet table (if it's a swanky hotel). Once I recall preferring the Bar Brazza from all other cafes and bars near our hotel. Later I realized this was a chain. Not the best coffee in the world, but better than average for Paris, in my humble opinion. I love a good espresso, but it's never been central to my Parisian experiences. Other opinions may be more astute in this area and I'd like to hear if anyone has seen presspots in restaurants or other establishments -- not including presspots for sale for home use.

[John Talbott]

Now, though some robustas may be drinkable, most of the time they're terribly bitter, acidic and rich in caffeine. This accounts for the characteristic (and, to me, horrid) taste of the French "petit noir". And when the espresso machine isn't properly maintained, the taste is even worse.

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It's good to hear someone French explain the horrid condition of French coffee and confirm why I always note which restos serve Illy. Luckily my Monoprix has Illy and I don't need to go farther.

[bleudauvergne]

Now, though some robustas may be drinkable, most of the time they're terribly bitter, acidic and rich in caffeine. This accounts for the characteristic (and, to me, horrid) taste of the French "petit noir". And when the espresso machine isn't properly maintained, the taste is even worse.

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It's good to hear someone French explain the horrid condition of French coffee and confirm why I always note which restos serve Illy. Luckily my Monoprix has Illy and I don't need to go farther.

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Hmmm, Illy. This is a brand? What does the package look like? We must try it.

At the height of my francophilia, I used to love the flavor, simply because it was French, but it's not the best coffee in Europe by a long shot.

Sigh. I'm clearly at the height of my francophilia. I think it generally can be quite good in a cafe. Some are better than others, yes, but I certainly don't go into a cafe thinking, oh darn, I have to drink this stinking French cafe coffee again. I would certainly not claim French coffee to be the best overall in Europe in formal terms of taste, but I won't dismiss it, because it is a different animal. I am interested to see how Owen fares in Paris and what he thinks about the overall comparison once his notes are in.

[John Talbott]

Hmmm, Illy.  This is a brand?  What does the package look like?  We must try it. 

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It is a brand.

It's in Red and Green square metal cans about 6 inches tall. See here for example. They also sell premeasured little trucs.

In my Monoprix they're just to the right of the "bricks" of other coffees.

[phaelon56]

Hmmm, Illy. This is a brand? What does the package look like? We must try it.

Yes, as John pointed out - it's a brand and is, along with LaVazza, the largest or best selling brand in Italy. It's far better than average for a canned espresso coffee but that is its primary use - for espresso. It's also helpful to seek out a vendor who does a large sales volume (e.g. a store where expatriate Italians shop). Illy is pretty good when it's fresh but they're so large and ship in such volume that in many places, especially here in the US, it's easy to get some that's been on the shelf for too long.

Thanks to all for the helpful info. When traveling in unfamiliar locales I've always looked for the Illy sign and have more often than not had better than average or at least acceptable espresso in places where good espresso is not common. Imagine my pleasure when I spotted this little cafe in Cozumel Mexico (an island full of bad coffee and even worse espresso). And the drink was good. It was the Illy sign that lured me in.

[menton1]

Enjoy your trip to France, Owen.. (Jealous).

I've been to France many, many times, and the coffee just about anywhere is terrific. Getting off the red-eye at 9AM the first order of business is to get that first shot of coffee. What a rush!!

In my experience it's actually difficult to get a BAD cup of coffee in France. If it's espresso you want, just order a "café" The capuccino is called just that, and it's just about the same as in Italy. A "café crème" is actually similar to what we call cafe au lait. (but much better). One thing I recommend for sure is to stay AWAY from Starbucks in France.

If you want to buy coffee to take home (not sure if that passes the APHIS criteria) we usually go to the supermarket and just grap a couple of vacuum packs. They are usually better than anything you can get in the US and very cheap!

Where are you going in France?

(Have a great trip!)

Edited January 14, 2005 by menton1 (log)

[phaelon56]

Where are you going in France?

Paris. We only have a week and at this time of year it seems to make sense to just focus on that - as if a week will allow us to do more than even scratch the surface

[Bux]

I don't dismiss coffee in France. I rarely start the day without a cup and more often than not finish dinner in a restaurant with a coffee, unless there's some nice cafe nearby that's still open. A coffee sometime in the afternoon is not unlikely either. By the way, when I say coffee, I mean espresso. I'd rather have an espresso in France that what I've traditionally found in the US before Starbucks. I think the chains have better coffee than the really bitter espresso that was always served with a lemon peel in NY. Nevertheless, as I've noted elsewhere, those chains are basically selling flavored milk drinks and espresso doesn't seem to be their long shot. Actually their shot is usually too long. Still, I favor parts of Spain and Italy when it comes to coffee. I used to hate American coffee when I returned from my early trips to France, but about twenty years ago, we revisited Italy and when we returned, I found I had lost all taste for American coffee and don't think I've had more than half a dozen cups in the last two decades and those were purely to appear polite.

[menton1]

Paris.  We only have a week and at this time of year it seems to make sense to just focus on that - as if a week will allow us to do more than even scratch the surface 

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Great!! Please give us some more details of your trip!!

Edited January 15, 2005 by menton1 (log)

[Ptipois]

It is a brand.

It's in Red and Green square metal cans about 6 inches tall.

In my Monoprix they're just to the right of the "bricks" of other coffees.

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While we're in the coffee department at Monoprix, if you see any Malongo cans, by all means try them. Of course pick the all-arabica stuff, but it is clearly understood by everybody that robusta coffees are low-grade. Those who choose it do so par habitude or because robusta has a lot of caffeine and does give quite a kick.

The robusta situation in French cafés (and many bistrots) is not going to change, except in places where there is some sort of coffee consciousness. At other places (brûleries, salons de thé, chocolatiers, good restaurants, etc.) you'll be likely to get pure arabicas.

Two other hints to answer the original question of this thread:

- Hédiard has good coffees and good coffee advisers. I do like, also, the coffee vendors at La Grande Epicerie du Bon Marché, very reliable and helpful, with a great choice of beans. They even had some Liquidambar maragogype before the plantation was abandoned because it didn't make enough profit (loud cries of grief).

- The Water Bar at Colette's (rue Saint-Honoré) has excellent coffee, cappucino and lattes. Call the place hype, but it's very pleasantly designed, has a warm atmosphere, and these guys do make good coffee. Besides, it's so close to Verlet...

[Ptipois]

It's good to hear someone French explain the horrid condition of French coffee and confirm why I always note which restos serve Illy.  Luckily my Monoprix has Illy and I don't need  to go farther.

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My case among the French is by no means a rule. I am often amazed at what my countrypeople can gulp in and get away with (for me, a Parisian espresso means instant migraine). But I thought I hated espresso coffee before I got a chance to get away from France and go to, say, Italy. That was a long time ago. Now I love coffee but I still hate French espressos. I enjoy coffee when I make it at home, or when I'm abroad, or when I visit a place that makes good coffee (an Illy- or Lavazza- or Segafredo-bar, or the basement at Colette's, etc.).

I'm not such a fan of Starbucks (I find it too strong too), but I did appreciate the coffee served in England at chains like Aroma, for instance.

[Bux]

At other places (brûleries, salons de thé, chocolatiers, good restaurants, etc.) you'll be likely to get pure arabicas.

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I was about to say that I thought I'd had better coffee in salons du thé than I have had at cafés, oddly enough, but I thought it was just a thought I had based on a very limited selection. Now I suspect it may be a trusim. The other interesting thing about salons du thé is that they tend to have fewer smokers than bars or cafes and thus they're very often been our choice tor breakast.

[Ptipois]

When it comes to describing coffee in Paris, you've seen my manners: I'm an utter brute. So I'd better go all the way: I think that, in most French cafés, coffee sucks.

It can be very good in other places, salons de thé not the least of them. And you may get proper breakfasts there, avoiding troquets. I mean, early in the morning when you need gradual adaptation to the cruel outside world, who needs triple-priced croissants, brusque service, watery jelly, tartines spread with 1 micron of butter and, in your cup, the concentrated juice from a thousand dirty socks? At least the baguette is always fresh and the dingling noise of cups and cutlery is cheerful and musical.

In hotels they often use the drip method, but their coffee is of the horseshoe type (add more coffee if the horseshoe doesn't float). You could dip a pen in it and write. Hotel people probably believe their clients die at night instead of falling asleep.

[menton1]

When it comes to describing coffee in Paris, you've seen my manners: I'm an utter brute. So I'd better go all the way: I think that, in most French cafés, coffee sucks.

I respectfully disagree. I LOVE the coffee in France. As I said before, getting off the red eye and having that first coffee in a cafe is a terrific rush. I think that most coffee, if freshly ground daily and made in the Italian espresso machines, will be good. I do not like the way Europeans do drip coffee, however. I think this is an area where Americans have them beat. I have had drip coffee made for me in France when a guest at someone's house, and also at Chambres d'Hote, and always in Italy hotels where breakfast is included. Invariably, the drip coffee is horrid. But the "café" at the Cafés, whether straight, or as a "crème" I have always found to be wonderful.

[Malawry]

BTW, now is sale time in the stores; if you want a new Bodum french press pot or other coffee paraphernelia I saw great selections at Printe,ps and Gallerie Lafayette. Machines sold in France won't help Americans much though. And I think gourmet emporiums like Fauchon and Hediard don't "get" sales, so don't look for special coffee deals there. I did enjoy extremely friendly and knowledgeable service from the gentleman at the Hediard coffee counter in Madeline yesterday.

[bleudauvergne]

Malawry - great that you're taking advantage of the sales. It is rather bothersome to see a big sale sign on a kitchen supply place and then find out they're willing to give you 5% off. But there are many excellent finds especially as the sales continue, especially at the stores that rotate their inventory because they keep marking down until the end.

Gosh I wonder how Owen's doing. No news is good news I assume.

[bleudauvergne]

When it comes to describing coffee in Paris, you've seen my manners: I'm an utter brute. So I'd better go all the way: I think that, in most French cafés, coffee sucks.

I respectfully disagree. I LOVE the coffee in France. ...But the "café" at the Cafés, whether straight, or as a "crème" I have always found to be wonderful.

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I fall in the love French coffee camp. We also found that there is a certain way of roasting coffees that's done in the alpine region, that makes an excellent very refined coffee and it has to be very finely ground. I don't know the name of it though.