PA Liquor Laws

[kguetzow]

Being a Chicago native most of my life. I am still having trouble dealing with PA liquor laws. It seems like all the PA natives have just gotten used to them. They of course seem backwards, kindergartenish, and pointless. I understand monopolies don't like to give up power, but isn't there something people could do to bring the state into this century?

Naive I'm sure

Kurt

[Behemoth]

I recently moved from Philadelphia to Illinois so I have no response, I just want to gloat.

[kguetzow]

All I have to say is SAMS LIQUORS!

I lived a mile away.......................now 750 miles away.

DAMNIT!

What my question really is, is why don't Pennsylvanians seem to question this situation. It's like it just isn't up for discussion

[Behemoth]

It has been. For example, two years ago some liquor stores in Philly started opening on Sundays. And then they had a bunch of Christiam protesters outside with placards saying it was a sin to drink on the lord's day. Also when I left, several Philadelphia restaurants were trying to negotiate loosening the rules (their success in past years gave them some leverage with city hall, which in turn put pressure on Harrisburg.) Maybe Katie Loeb can say something about what happened there. But basically, I think it is typical state politics. Someone's cousin or nephew runs the state stores, people complained with no results, then finally gave up and resigned themselves to stocking up in Jersey.

[kguetzow]

It takes pressure to change things, and people have just gotten used to this.

I actually can live with the state stores, but the beer by the case thing is so annoying and silly. It doesn't curb my drinking it increases it. Now I have multiple cases in my house instead of a six pack. Perhaps Katie can enlighten in more detail.

Have you been to Sams yet?

[Mummer]

I think any European would look at our liquor laws and exclaim, "Now I understand the re-election of George Bush."

[davidbdesilva]

You are forgetting, what I think is the issue in this whole thing: the union (and this is from someone who works for a union). It seems that they have an iron-clad grasp around someone's cajones and refuse to let go. They have already said that the sale of the state stores would bring billions in revenue to Pennsylvania but no budging seems in sight. Maybe I have it all wrong but that seems to be the issue here.

[kguetzow]

It seems to me that the union and modernity should be able to coexist.

The Bush comment is so true.

You reminded me of another thing I can't get over. I keep clicking my heels, but I never et back to Kansas

[john b]

You are forgetting, what I think is the issue in this whole thing: the union (and this is from someone who works for a union). It seems that they have an iron-clad grasp around someone's cajones and refuse to let go. They have already said that the sale of the state stores would bring billions in revenue to Pennsylvania but no budging seems in sight. Maybe I have it all wrong but that seems to be the issue here.

←

That "someone" whose cajones are in the vice grips (ouch!) is the state legislature. It seems that every few years, some legislator will give some lip service to the idea of privatizing the liquor biz, then the idea quietly fades away.

Thankfully, I live in NJ.

[Capaneus]

It seems to me that the union and modernity should be able to coexist. 

The Bush comment is so true.

You reminded me of another thing I can't get over.  I keep clicking my heels, but I never et back to Kansas

←

"The Union" is an accurate but insufficient accunt of the problem. The fact, ultimately, is that there is very no political constituency for doing away with a sizable center of power in Pa politics. Wine drinkers aren't numerous, even if we do carry more clout that just numbers. For politicians, as with the Parking Authority, the Convention Center and PGW, the revenue of the State Stores is almost beside the point. The real power in all these bureaucracies lies in the patronage, and the favors it gives you to bestow - and to recall when needed. Those who have control of these grow dependent on them, and those who don't covet them. No one wants to do away with them.

*Still*, we are forcing change. Anyone who has shopped at PLCB stores for any period of time has noticed the improvement. In fact, on a (very few) items, we get great deals. And last Summer the Board seemed to be in play for the first time ever. Sure, it was probably just a feint by Fumo, but even that would have been inconceivable a few years ago.

[wkl]

Recently, I was in Food Source on Route 1 near Chadds Ford and noticed that a Pa State store had opened inside this "high end" grocery store.Great idea to mix food and wine togethor.

Living in Delaware I had never been in a Pa state store, intrigued I went in after purchasing some groceries.The first thing that hit me was the temperature.It must have been 70 degrees in there.If not more.The grocery store is low 60's top.Why they close the wine shop off and crank the heat is beyond me.They have a good selection, older burg's (97,98), barolo, muscadet, etc. enough to grab the wine lovers attention.I noticed a fair amount of bottles with scratched labels or labels that looked like they had been reapplied.I bought a Jadot '97 Pommard and a Grivot '98 Vosne Romanee.Both were cooked.I was the only one in the store for 25 minutes and none of the three employees offered to help me.

All in all, kinda of disapointing experience.However, I may go back and stick with current vintages.Although I really question their storage quality.

If I lived in Pa I would strongly voice my opinion on changing their system.Or shop in Del., NJ, or Md.

[NulloModo]

PA is interesting with liquor laws... It seems they are woefully behind the times with regards to how the actual liquor is sold (but then again, nothing compares to the hell of trying to buy booze in NC or SC, although I hear Utah is pretty damn bad too) but when it comes to bars, they are way ahead of DE, with still allowing drinkers to smoke, and with having much more reasonable hours, and less limits on happy hour specials, etc. So, buy your booze for home consumption in DE, go out to party in PA, seems like the logical conclusion.

[herbacidal]

There've been previous threads on PLCB and PA beer stores here and here plus probably some others if you go far enough back.

Basically, there's a few different reasons why the system is the way it is and why it is unilikely to change dramatically soon. The PLCB workers' union, politics, the protests of the overly religious, beer store owners, are all different things preventing significant change such as selling off the state store system or integrating beer into the State Stores.

At the same time Jonathan Newman, the current PLCB chairman, has made very significant progress and changes in recent years and I think he will continue to do much to modernize and improve the system.

Smalller changes that would be nice to make in my eyes are:

doing away with the by the case law for beer

making it easier to restaurants and caterers to purchase wine and liquor, including but not limited to increasing the discount from its current 7-8%

I can't remember anything else, since I rarely buy alcohol in PA.

[KatieLoeb]

Don't get me started...

The PLCB (the C stands for CONTROL) is now and will always be a self-perpetuating middleman between the wine and spirit purveyors and the PA wholesale (restaurants & caterers) and retail consumers. There is no incentive to change the system and any legislation to do away with the agency is viewed as genocide by the hundreds of bureaucrats and administrators that are on the state payroll. Not going to happen anytime soon. I hope to soon have the opportunity to engage Chairman Newman in a dialogue about that and many other issues. I'll keep you posted on any progress in that regard.

On the up side, as Herb mentioned, it's getting a whole lot better. Chairman Newman is doing a great job and is clearly a wine aficionado himself. The buying power the state of PA wields is enormous and there have been some fierce bargains of very good wine of late. I try my best to keep up with that on THIS thread, and there are lots of regular contributors who compare tasting notes and the eternal chase for that last bottle we covet.

[MarketStEl]

Every Republican governor of the state from the 1970s up to but not including Tom Ridge has made a show of moving to privatize the state liquor stores. And I think even Ridge paid some lip service to this.

Besides the reasons others have already given here, I think one of the big reasons the state liquor laws remain as they are is because of the rural-urban divide in this state--compounded here by a geographic difference between the two biggest cities.

The people in the "Alabama in between" parts of the state really have little or no interest in changing the way liquor and beer are sold; by and large, they sympathize somewhat with the religious folk who picketed the 1218 Chestnut Street PLCB SuperStore on the first Sunday it was open for business.

If Allegheny County were closer to a state that did not also have a controlled system of alcohol sales, there might be more efforts to change things, but as it stands now, the main people agitating for a more drinker-friendly system are Southeastern Pennsylvanians, who live just a hop, skip and jump away from New Jersey, Delaware and (in the case of southern Chester County) Maryland. As long as it's only Philly-area consumers who are doing all the agitating, there won't be any real changes aside from those that can be made by an oenophile Liquor Control Board chairman such as the one currently in charge.

[wkl]

Don't get me started...

On the up side, as Herb mentioned, it's getting a whole lot better.  Chairman Newman is doing a great job and is clearly a wine aficionado himself.  The buying power the state of PA wields is enormous and there have been some fierce bargains of very good wine of late.  I try my best to keep up with that on THIS thread, and there are lots of regular contributors who compare tasting notes and the eternal chase for that last bottle we covet. 

←

If the wine is poorly handled and stored in hot stores or warehouses, I have to wonder how good a bargain plcb can provide.

[kguetzow]

Every Republican governor of the state from the 1970s up to but not including Tom Ridge has made a show of moving to privatize the state liquor stores. And I think even Ridge paid some lip service to this.

Besides the reasons others have already given here, I think one of the big reasons the state liquor laws remain as they are is because of the rural-urban divide in this state--compounded here by a geographic difference between the two biggest cities.

The people in the "Alabama in between" parts of the state really have little or no interest in changing the way liquor and beer are sold; by and large, they sympathize somewhat with the religious folk who picketed the 1218 Chestnut Street PLCB SuperStore on the first Sunday it was open for business.

If Allegheny County were closer to a state that did not also have a controlled system of alcohol sales, there might be more efforts to change things, but as it stands now, the main people agitating for a more drinker-friendly system are Southeastern Pennsylvanians, who live just a hop, skip and jump away from New Jersey, Delaware and (in the case of southern Chester County) Maryland.  As long as it's only Philly-area consumers who are doing all the agitating, there won't be any real changes aside from those that can be made by an oenophile Liquor Control Board chairman such as the one currently in charge.

←

I think this regional explanation makes sense. What has struck me is the apathy I percieve when mentioning this issue to PA natives. They're just so used to it that they don't see any reason to question it. What really gets me is that the "blue" aspect of the laws don't seem to accomplish anything for religious right. It doesn't restrict drinking, and the case rule actually increases the amount and availability of beer. Perhaps the resistence to change also comes from seems to be an "all or nothing" fear in the minds of state employees. The buying power of the state IS huge and certainly can be a plus. Keep state control just make it less illogical and stiff. ok ok wah wah wah

On a more humorous note, in Illinois there are a few drive thru liquor stores. I always got a kick out of how irresponsible it felt when I used them. Drinking and driving......say it isn't so!

[mrbigjas]

I think this regional explanation makes sense.  What has struck me is the apathy I percieve when mentioning this issue to PA natives.  They're just so used to it that they don't see any reason to question it. 

i've bitched about it long and loudly, on this very forum.

What really gets me is that the "blue" aspect of the laws don't seem to accomplish anything for religious right.  It doesn't restrict drinking, and the case rule actually increases the amount and availability of beer.

what really gets me is some hayseed from pennsyltucky telling me that jesus doesn't want me buying a bottle of wine on a sunday or after 9 at night--and then being able to enforce it, rather than having to listen to me laughing at them.

On a more humorous note, in Illinois there are a few drive thru liquor stores.  I always got a kick out of how irresponsible it felt when I used them.  Drinking and driving......say it isn't so!

actually upstate in the aforementioned pennsyltucky where my family is from, they have a couple of drive-through beer distributorships. also they fry potato chips in lard up there. you can get a case of yuengling and a big bag of good's and never get out of your car. now that's a party!

[philadining]

actually upstate in the aforementioned pennsyltucky where my family is from, they have a couple of drive-through beer distributorships.

←

There's a drive-through beer distributor in Phoenixville. It's not big, but they have some decent brews. I've always wondered if I could call ahead, roll in slowly and get a case without even stopping the car...

Sadly, no lard-fried chips in sight.

[Rich Pawlak]

Don't get me started...

The PLCB (the C stands for CONTROL) is now and will always be a self-perpetuating middleman between the wine and spirit purveyors and the PA wholesale (restaurants & caterers) and retail consumers. There is no incentive to change the system and any legislation to do away with the agency is viewed as genocide by the hundreds of bureaucrats and administrators that are on the state payroll. Not going to happen anytime soon. I hope to soon have the opportunity to engage Chairman Newman in a dialogue about that and many other issues. I'll keep you posted on any progress in that regard.

I smell a LIVELY Q&A here, if you could arrange it. Might the wildest, liveliest one on eGullet to date!

[kguetzow]

Don't get me started...

The PLCB (the C stands for CONTROL) is now and will always be a self-perpetuating middleman between the wine and spirit purveyors and the PA wholesale (restaurants & caterers) and retail consumers. There is no incentive to change the system and any legislation to do away with the agency is viewed as genocide by the hundreds of bureaucrats and administrators that are on the state payroll. Not going to happen anytime soon. I hope to soon have the opportunity to engage Chairman Newman in a dialogue about that and many other issues. I'll keep you posted on any progress in that regard.

I smell a LIVELY Q&A here, if you could arrange it. Might the wildest, liveliest one on eGullet to date!

←

That would be quite interesting!

[lancastermike]

Every Republican governor of the state from the 1970s up to but not including Tom Ridge has made a show of moving to privatize the state liquor stores. And I think even Ridge paid some lip service to this.

Besides the reasons others have already given here, I think one of the big reasons the state liquor laws remain as they are is because of the rural-urban divide in this state--compounded here by a geographic difference between the two biggest cities.

The people in the "Alabama in between" parts of the state really have little or no interest in changing the way liquor and beer are sold; by and large, they sympathize somewhat with the religious folk who picketed the 1218 Chestnut Street PLCB SuperStore on the first Sunday it was open for business.

If Allegheny County were closer to a state that did not also have a controlled system of alcohol sales, there might be more efforts to change things, but as it stands now, the main people agitating for a more drinker-friendly system are Southeastern Pennsylvanians, who live just a hop, skip and jump away from New Jersey, Delaware and (in the case of southern Chester County) Maryland.  As long as it's only Philly-area consumers who are doing all the agitating, there won't be any real changes aside from those that can be made by an oenophile Liquor Control Board chairman such as the one currently in charge.

←

I live in Lancaster County, and frankly find your characterisation of the rest of the Commonwealth to be offensive. Were I live there are a signifigant amount of conservative folks who oppose change in the system. There are also lots of folks,like me, who woulld like to see change. This sure ain't Alabama here and a discussion of the merits of the PLCB and changes to it are best served without ridiculous statements like that being made. I often post here about wine offerings at the PLCB specailty store in Lancaster, which is open on Sundays, by the way.

What would you think of someone posting that everyone in Philadelphia is in favor of this change because the town is full of drunks.

My reply here does not begin to describe my upset at these sterotypical, ridulous statements you made. True Fact: I do not agree with those who oppose change and picketed PLCB stores. However, I support there right to do so without calling them names or suggesting they are from Alabama. Your unsupported generalisations about folks who live were I do are un fonded and unfair.

Edited January 13, 2005 by lancastermike (log)

[kguetzow]

Every Republican governor of the state from the 1970s up to but not including Tom Ridge has made a show of moving to privatize the state liquor stores. And I think even Ridge paid some lip service to this.

Besides the reasons others have already given here, I think one of the big reasons the state liquor laws remain as they are is because of the rural-urban divide in this state--compounded here by a geographic difference between the two biggest cities.

The people in the "Alabama in between" parts of the state really have little or no interest in changing the way liquor and beer are sold; by and large, they sympathize somewhat with the religious folk who picketed the 1218 Chestnut Street PLCB SuperStore on the first Sunday it was open for business.

If Allegheny County were closer to a state that did not also have a controlled system of alcohol sales, there might be more efforts to change things, but as it stands now, the main people agitating for a more drinker-friendly system are Southeastern Pennsylvanians, who live just a hop, skip and jump away from New Jersey, Delaware and (in the case of southern Chester County) Maryland.  As long as it's only Philly-area consumers who are doing all the agitating, there won't be any real changes aside from those that can be made by an oenophile Liquor Control Board chairman such as the one currently in charge.

←

I live in Lancaster County, and frankly find your characterisation of the rest of the Commonwealth to be offensive. Were I live there are a signifigant amount of conservative folks who oppose change in the system. There are also lots of folks,like me, who woulld like to see change. This sure ain't Alabama here and a discussion of the merits of the PLCB and changes to it are best served without ridiculous statements like that being made. I often post here about wine offerings at the PLCB specailty store in Lancaster, which is open on Sundays, by the way.

What would you think of someone posting that everyone in Philadelphia is in favor of this change because the town is full of drunks.

My reply here does not begin to describe my upset at these sterotypical, ridulous statements you made. True Fact: I do not agree with those who oppose change and picketed PLCB stores. However, I support there right to do so without calling them names or suggesting they are from Alabama. Your unsupported generalisations about folks who live were I do are un fonded and unfair.

←

[/quote

Anyone from Alabama offended by the comparisons Pennsylvanians?

[Holly Moore]

To All:

Please, no more generalizations about residents of various areas of the state. It's invalid and not in the spirt of eGullet or the eGullet Member Agreement.

Otherwise I'm going to have to step in and do some heavy pruning.

[mrbigjas]

sorry about that y'all; sometimes i get my dander up when i start discussing the ridiculousness of the lcb.

see, kgeutzow? some of us don't just accept it, but rant and rave till we get all offensive and say shit we don't mean.

edited for punctuational clarity

Edited January 13, 2005 by mrbigjas (log)