Milk chocolate

[Wendy DeBord]

Unforunately I don't get the chance to try a wide variety of chocolate brands. I recently bought Valrona's milk chocolate (retail) and I personally was a little supprised by it. I'm currently using all E. Guttaird's line at work.........I've always thought the E. Guttaird milk chocolate to be a little bit waxie and timid (compared to fechlin's I used at a previous job, and admired)..........until I tasted Valrona's. I expected the Valrona to be great and really much better then the Guttiard and Fechlin, I'm supprised that I thought it wasn't nearly as good.

This has me wondering if others feel the same way, that Valrona's milk chocolate is pretty weak? Or am I missing something? Am I comparing it too much to a typical American candy bar and not really the 'right standards'?

So, who's milk chocolate are you buying?

[ladyyoung98]

i hope im spelling it right but....ghiradelli

[artisanbaker]

i think that valrhona's is phenomenal but not as good as bernachon's...

:)

[waic]

I have never been a big fan of Valrhona, for baking or for eating. For eating, I recommend a German bar called Ritter. It's pretty popular with kids in Germany, but really has a nice smooth milky taste.

For baking, I recommend adding a little semisweet chocolate into any milk chocolate brand. Callebaut or Valhrona will work nicely.

[nightscotsman]

For most situations we use Cocao Barry (easy to work with and good flavor), but I've found out that we recently switched to E Guittard for some things like enrobing chocolate bon bons. I'm told the reason is the E Guittard is more mildly flavored and lets the flavor of the fillings come through better.

[Wendy DeBord]

I do like the E. Guittard in my truffles. It really does play a back seat to your flavorings (now that you mention it) and I swear I get a thinner shell with it then other brands I've used...........unbelievably thin!

But what about Valrona's milk chocolate..... In the French pastry books they (Herme I should probably say) seem to use it exclusively as if it was the best brand available. Indeed I was blown away by Valrona's darker chocolates (I've never worked with them though).

Is it my American taste buds that makes me think the Valrona milk chocolate is sub-par? Is it a "good" brand of milk chocolate and my taste is off? Or do the French not care about milk chocolate enough to have the best of it?

[KarenS]

I use Cocoa Barry primarily, and sometimes Valrhona. I will go out of my way to use Valrhona white choc- as I feel it is excellent.

[RB2]

I also believe that Valrhona Milk Chocolate taste great, but then again I generally don't prefer milk chocolate in general and haven't found any other brands that I particularly enjoy while I have tried many others.

[chefpeon]

Is it my American taste buds that makes me think the Valrona milk chocolate is sub-par? Is it a "good" brand of milk chocolate and my taste is off? Or do the French not care about milk chocolate enough to have the best of it?

You should just trust yourself and your judgement....it's what makes you you. Your judgement and the decisions you make are what shapes you into the PC you are......and somewhat defines your style.

Taste is so subjective. You can ask a million people for their opinions, and they'll all be different.

Go with your gut. Go with what you like.....if it pleases you, it'll please a hell of a lot of people too.

Except in the case where I'm working with stuff that I don't like, I don't really ask for other people's opinions, because I know if I do, it's just like opening a big can of worms. I'll get lots of feedback both positive and negative and it ends up stressing me out and making me second guess myself. Don't need it.

Generally it's pretty simple. I make something. I taste it. If I like it, it goes out, if I don't, it's back to the drawing board. It's all part of stress-free zen baking.

[aidensnd2]

I've never been a big fan of Valrhona's milk chocolate. Their dark and white are fantastic but the taste of the milk isn't that impressive. All of them are really nice to work with though, easily my favorites out of all I have tried.

For milk chocolate taste I too like E Guittard. A lot of times I'll add in about 10% of their dark in with the milk and that seems to beef up the flavor also.

[FWED]

Wendy, Wendy, Wendy. You are a wonderful pastry chef. Trust your gut level feelings as to which milk chocolate you like and don’t like. I whole heartedly agree with Anne’s (chefpeon) sentiments. Don’t get hung up on brand names. Many companies can and do make several types of milk chocolate each with its own distinctive flavor profile. You might decide to use one brand for one project and another brand for a different project.

What is also interesting about this thread is the question of what it is about the particular flavor profile that you do or don’t like. If you could answer that it might help you in selecting milk chocolate in the future regardless of brand. I personally don’t care for milk chocolates that are to milky. In other words I prefer milk chocolates that have very low or very subtle milk flavors. I have close friends that prefer just the opposite. So there you are.

You might contact the egullet member Clay Gorden about the difference in flavor profiles of Valrona, Guittard, and Fechlin milk chocolate. He knows more about chocolate than all of us combined.

[SteveCleve]

I'm new. I'm sure I'm about to get voted off the island - BUT...Trader's Joe's Pound Plus chocolate bars are great (and a great value). 17.6 ounces for under $4.00 I'm almost positive they are made for TJ by Callebaut. The milk chocolate (along with the bittersweet and 70%) is delicious.

[nightscotsman]

I'm new.  I'm sure I'm about to get voted off the island - BUT...Trader's Joe's Pound Plus chocolate bars are great (and a great value).  17.6 ounces for under $4.00  I'm almost positive they are made for TJ by Callebaut.  The milk chocolate (along with the bittersweet and 70%) is delicious.

←

Don't worry, Steve - you won't have to swim back to civilization. The Trader Joe's chocolate bars ARE quite good (most likely produced by Callebaut). Certainly better than Guittard's regular line and a hell of a great price for retail chocolate. I just wish they had a white chocolate version.

[Wendy DeBord]

Yes, I do trust my personal tastes. That's why I mention my opinion. I was supprised that I wasn't crazy for Valrona's milk chocolate! BUT I'm certainly interested in how my opinion compares to others. It would be a lie to say I've done extensive chocolate tastings.

Sometimes (almost always) your memory of taste can fail you when you don't do side by side tasting. Of which I've never done (BUT SHOULD). Therefore I listen to others reccomendations, and have been well rewarded for doing so. I'm very happy with the E. Guittard line I'm using..........I dipped more truffles last night and I'm just blown away by how thin my shells are using their semi sweet. It's all in the brand, I've never gotten this nice of shells with other brands.

[Steve Klc]

Wendy, you owe it to yourself to try many many different chocolate brands, can you imagine a halfway decent chef anywhere in this country who hasn't tried all the different meat vendors available to him, sought out farms, free range chicken varieties, Niman Ranch pork vs. other pork, olive oils, whatever--these are what we create and combine with. So if you feel you haven't worked with enough chocolates yet, get cracking. Make it happen.

There's all kinds of chocolate knowledge, it's good to gather from all perspectives: growers, buyers, books, from reading manufacturer's literature about their products, to those selling it, promoting it, tasting it, and then from those actually having the chops to transform it, having the skills and palate and experience to produce and provoke something with it as an ingredient. Big big differences in degree and perception and knowledge.

How something tastes to each of us is going to be different, especially when heated or combined, and it has little to do with what a flavor "profile" might be going in--the real action is going to take place very personally, very individually, within our palates as perceivers and creators--and within our framework for integrating other ingredients and then processing these tastes, flavors, notes. Variability in recipe, conching, milk powder, malt, caramel, high or low cacao percentages, waxiness or meltability, sugar, vanilla, all affect how something works, how something tastes in use, how we might cover some aspect up or choose to bring some aspect out, and it does so in very unique and personal ways, so much so it renders most sensory guidance on this, frankly, a distraction. The experts and the manufacturers don't want you to read this, but that's just the way it is.

Performance-wise, how something tempers and covers, now that's not subjective, that can be quanitifed and qualified through the scientific method, through trial. That's like a lab experiment, variables can be eliminated and it can be replicated.

But how any one of us reacts to the taste of, say Valrhona's Jivara, and the value and creative worth we ascribe to it, will vary. And that's a good thing.

That's because taste is and always will be subjective, so too will media perception. I happen to love the Valrhona "Jivara" milk chocolate Wendy, always have, is that the Valrhona milk you tried? I like eating it plain and I like using it. But then I appreciate a lot of other milk chocolates for their subtle and not-so-subtle differences as well. What is it about the Jivara you don't like, what are you basing your sub-par assessment of it on? Plain, in a mousse, a ganache, a glaze, with what other flavors? Take Neil's comment: "the E Guittard is more mildly flavored and lets the flavor of the fillings come through better." That's right, it's also much less expensive than Valrhona or Cluizel, and some chocolatiers would take the other approach, choosing a chocolate to use, and pairing with a more subtle filling flavor or no filling flavor, just so the flavor of the chocolate comes through better. Different strokes for different folks--and likely different profit margins. But this is a good example of a "rule" I too have heard used that isn't a rule at all--it's nothing more than preference, subjectivity, based on individual experience. Make your own rules.

At the moment, I'm using the Jivara in one of my current desserts--the "Cafe de olla" from Oyamel, Colleen and I just came back from Disneyworld where we did it for 800 people, the component I make with it is a creamy milk chocolate-espresso flan, which I then pour flat into a wide bowl about 1/4" deep to set up. I first developed the dessert around the Cluizel 45% milk chocolate, but switched early on for price and availability reasons, Dairyland was doing a shitty job delivering the quantity I needed and their salesman was, well, a typical clueless salesman, so then I adjusted my recipe accordingly to make the switch--and started bringing Valrhona in from another distributor and another salesman. These are both above the 40% cacao content level, the Valrhona more creamy and sweet, and of the two I enjoy eating the Cluizel out of hand, as pure chocolate, much more. As we all know, however, desserts and bon bons are not one pure ingredient eaten and assessed out of hand.

In this dessert, I'm balancing the milk chocolate primarily with espresso (from Chiapas grown beans, City roast) and also with a melange of other flavors: piloncillo, anise, allspice, clove, almond, some Valrhona cocoa powder and salt--so the milk chocolate is there but it's used in such a way that it adds up to something else entirely. In this dish, the way it is plated and eaten, you can take one spoonful of flan by itself, another of flan with the cacao-almond crumble, a third with some flan, crumble and piloncillo-spice syrup, and fourth a spoonful of flan, crumble, syrup and a bit of anise ice cream, and fifth, if you are dextrous, all those with a bit of Kahlua gelatin to boot. And with each bite the milk chocolate figures differently into the taste equation, including being occluded. This also breaks a few of the dumb "rules" I've heard over time from supposed experts--the milk chocolate is not strong enough to be a good match with coffee rule, the desserts should have no more than 3 main flavors rule, you should be able to taste the chocolate at all times.

No, no, no--the milk chocolate is what I want it to be and the dessert is what I want it to be (and also, of course, what my chef friend Jose Andres wants it to be!)

The E. Guittard milk chocolate is cheaper and tastes sweeter to me, it's a 38%, and I've used it in other things. Could I make it work in this dessert? Sure. I personally don't care for its texture when eaten plain, but that has little if nothing to do with how I'd make it work in a dessert application. For the price it is a typically too sweet but serviceable milk chocolate, nothing more, nothing less, unless you make it more. I think the tip expressed earlier by aidensnd about adding x percent of a dark chocolate to a milk chocolate based recipe is a good one, and something I've done at times for years. I also have always liked the flavor of the El Rey milk, eaten out of hand and used in ganache and desserts, it's a 45% and maybe my favorite all-around milk, but their distribution problems in my market proved problematic for me. Esprit des alpes has one really nice milk in their line as well, which is very Swiss-styled, as do many other manufacturers.

Confectionary applications, thin shells of couverture, are a different animal completely from a dessert or pastry application--and how you perceive a chocolate and why you choose a chocolate will always defy any broad generalization, like "Valrhona" this or "Callebaut" that. Go with your palate and experience and have the confidence in yourself as a creator that you can taste something blind--and then imagine what might go well with it. As you swallow it and the flavor changes at the end, what else might be good there? Licorice? Rosemary? Lemon? You never know. That's because we're all unique creators, with unique approaches and palates and creative processes. That doesn't show up on paper, that isn't something you can read, and that certainly isn't anything that can be conveyed. That's something you do and feel.

Wendy, in the case of the E. Guittard 61%, I'm glad you've finally gotten some experience tempering and working with it, on eG a few of us been preaching its value as a great tasting great performing couverture for years now. But there's no reason why you shouldn't also be getting equally thin shells with any roughly comparable performing couverture--say the Cacao Noel or the Esprit des Alpes 63% Garnet.

By the way, I'm lucky in that my active relationship working with really good chocolate goes back a bit, and after actively conducting side-by-side blind tastings of good chocolate for maybe 10 years, before some of those riding the current awareness bandwagon realized there was something even worth climbing onto, I'm coming to the increasing realization that that process--evaluating a chocolate bar as one might evaluate a bottle of wine--while very easy for the amateur or dilletante to hone in on--is actually over-rated and unimportant once you get past a certain entry level hurdle: do it often enough with the same chocolates and you'll realize that how you taste, how you perceive, will be affected by the order, number, age and storage of the chocolates you select--the temperature, time of day, your mood, what else you've eaten, etc. Your perceptions will change and change back. Do it often enough, you'll become able to recognize Jivara from Cluizel from El Rey from Guittard just from the texture and mouthfeel, you won't even have to fully taste it, to identify it--but so what? What's that gotten you? Once you discover that for yourself--hey, all these pretty good chocolates are different and here's how they are different to me, it's like you've stepped up to the plate and realize you're gonna have to hit a curve or a fastball or a slider and that each pitcher is gonna throw it to you a little differently--you still have to hit it, you still have to do something with it. In the case of a chocolate, you apply heat or cold, you add cream or butter or yolks or cinnamon to it, you layer flavor, you apply more techniques learned over time--in short you transform it. And that's the really valuable knowledge.

I'm sure if you spent some time with the Jivara, Wendy, and tried it in a few things, you'd find something you adore it in--even if you may not actually enjoy eating it out of hand. Also realize milk chocolate spoils readily, and is especially mistreated in retail situations. Make sure you're working from a fresh sample from a reliable vendor. And don't lose one bit of sleep over the fact that you may prefer other milk chocolates--there are plenty fo excellent ones out there, and plenty of ways to adapt to the one you have on hand.

[Wendy DeBord]

Ahhhhhhhhh, lots of really great points Steve! I agree totally that out of hand and used in something can be very different.............and it's something I didn't consider well enough. I only bought one small bar so I'm eating it out of hand and making comparisions to what I'm used to. Normally if you were to hand me a milk chocolate candy bar I'd have it gone with-in the half hour. The Valrona milk chocolate is the first bar of milk chocolate that's lasted me for over a week of nibbling.

The E. Guittard milk choc. is more mild taste wise (besides the differences in mouth feel which is the most noticable objection to the E. Guittard) then the Valrona. What is it that makes the Valrona different then so many other milk chocolates (all the milk chocolates I've tasted)? When I eat it out of hand it doesn't stay on my palate as long as other brands or it's just not as memorable making me crave more? Does it have less sugar then it's competitors?

I've never tasted a milk chocolate quite like the Valrona and the thought of using milk chocolate with such aggessive flavor combos as you mentioned hadn't crossed my mind yet. But after tasting the Valrona I can see how it would be an excellent match in your dessert.........and how other milk chocolates wouldn't be as good of a choice. Until now (tasting the Valrona) I really thought all milk chocolates were pretty darn close. The differences in brands (eating out of hand) among semi sweets, bitter sweets and whites is up until now been far more dramatic for me then tasting various milk chocolates. Sorry to say that this is the first light bulb turning on moment for me in milk chocolate. That's really the essence of why this stood out to me and why I needed to ask others about their milk chocolate tastes/likes/dislikes.

Side note: o.k. now I have to rethink why my shells are so thin lately. It would be nice to say I've gotten better, but I don't really think I'm doing anything differently. Other then my room is much warmer where I'm dipping now then from other kitchens.......... and now that I think about it my chocolate never gets cold to where I have to rewarm it= more fluidity. Hum............and I'm also thinking about the tip of warming your molds (I forget who taught that in a seminar, but it was someone major) ah shear dumb luck but I wouldn't be aware of that if Steve hadn't posted his previous response. YET.............why then are rooms designed for chocolate work cool? It speeds up your setting but works against your chocolates fluidity and your molds.

[chocartist]

I think it's much more difficult to find a good milk chocolate than a dark one for various reasons. I happen to love Peter's Broc Milk Chocolate. In case you're not aware of it, Daniel Peter (this chocolate's namesake) and Henri Nestle were the inventors of milk chocolate. Today Broc is manufactured here using the original Swiss formula.

[Carbo]

Yep, I second the recomendation for Peter's - used tons of it until I became more trained in the nuances of higher-butterfat choc. Mostly known only to foodservice users, (the big food companies distribute it), and, used to be featured in the King Arthur catalogue - don't know if it still is. The staff there called it the "insider's" choice for milk choc.

Edited October 31, 2004 by Carbo (log)

[artisanbaker]

I used to work with Broc and found it both painfully sweet and thick. Fortunately there are varying viscosities. I used to add cocoa butter to it to thin it and make it manageable for enrobing. I would say, however, that for the mainstream general public it would be a profitable choice for quality production.

[chocophile]

TJ's Pound Plus bars are a good bargain and are good choices for eating chocolates for what they are. They can be used for baking but I have found them to be not fluid enough when tempered to work with even when I am pushing 92. (I recently used the milk for making s'mores for my daughter's Brownie troop - dip the graham cracker into the tempered milk chocolate add a mini marshmallow and let set. Yumm, but the chocolate was really too thick. The girls liked them though and I suppose that's what really counts.)

There are a lot of great milk chocolates out there but everything that has been said here about evaluating chocolate for eating versus baking versus molding/enrobing is right. They are three different applications and each needs to be approached separately - technically as well as with regards to taste.

From a tasting perspective I have found it most useful to comparatively taste several chocolates at the same time in flights of four to five and choose a favorite, then compare favorites from different flights. It's the comparative aspect of tasting that seems to work best for me; it's much harder to do in isolation.

Did any of you see New York Magazine this past issue? They asked Francois Payard to do a blindfolded taste test of mass market chocolates and confections. His impressions may surprise you - he got virtually all of them wrong and "liked" some things that I am pretty sure he never would have admitted to liking if he knew what he was eating.

For me, I tend to like - for eating - milk chocolates with at least 45% cocoa content; the Cluizel 45% Lait pur Java and the Slittis 45, 62, and 70% have been among my favorites, but recently I've been eating the Felchlin Creole (49%) and the new Plantations 48%.

I don't do much baking or chocolate making with milk chocolate but when I do I tend to look for simple flavors with caramel notes that fit within a budget that's usually not mine to set. I look for chocolates (milk and dark) that don't take away from the other flavors I am trying to convey; complement, not contrast. For much of my event work I go to a shop down in Arthur Avenue in the Bronx (which is not too far from me) that sells a workable Callebaut milk and dark in chunks for about $4/lb retail and I just go there and buy only what I need when I need it. For what I do with it and for the intended audience it's perfect.

:Clay

[Anatolia]

I'm new to all this and after reading this forum am so glad to find people who think and talk about chocolate the way I do. I am currently having difficult finding the Valrhona chocolate feves havecome to enjoy working with so much - I saw Dairyland mentioned are there other compnaies or websites from which I might be able to get ahold of what I am looking for!?!?

for the record and backed up by Payard's chocolate taste test in NY Magazine - when it comes to taste to each his own with a blindfold on

ps thanks for helping the new girl

[rickster]

You could try www.chocosphere.com or www.chocolatesource.com for valrhona feves.

[tan319]

I use the Jivara lactee Valrhona 40% and Cocoa Noel 38%, each for different reasons, and I can see where Wendy wouldn't be knock down drag out excited by the Jivara.

I dig the caramel notes of the Noel a lot and always find myself salting the Jivara to bring up some notes.

I liked the Guittard milk quite a bit and would probably use it if I could get an existing vendor to carry it.

I also like the C.Barry milk a lot and would love to try the Papousie.

[tchorst]

for ganaches I like E. Guittard for it's ease of mixing flavors with. For enrobing I like Cluizel for it's fluidity of use and higher %. I'll be using the higher % plantation soon for testing. I have a feeling I'll like it

Tim

[hayasaka.k]

Oi...

As a happily-addicted "baby" to the pastry life, all you seasoned eGulleters provide an amazing window of inspiration for me to oogle through. Although at times (such as this one), I am overwhelmed by how much I have yet to experience! My days (and nights) are quickly becoming more well-scheduled than when in university, and now I am tempted to take out the more-naptime-than-bedtime between "bread class" and "religious studies" to add a chocolate study as well. Have I over-specifically-divided my interests? Do I still make sense outside of my own head?

Back to the topic... sort of.

I have been hand-picking a small group to conduct tasting parties with me but haven't found any reasonbly-sized "tasting sets" available; is it more viable to suggest I simply buy individual bars and chop those up? Would it be more helpful (re: less confusing) if I limit tastings by region (several brands of dark, all from Ecuador), or brand (different regions offered by the same brand)? And would the same approach apply if sampling by cocoa %?

Edited to add: (My apologies for hijacking this thread!) I tried searching more info on eG and online as well but have only found tips for eating chocolate tastings. Aside from workability, is there more to look at from a baking perspective?

Edited November 6, 2004 by hayasaka.k (log)