Copper Cookware: The Topic

[JoNorvelleWalker]

2 hours ago, Deephaven said:

Out of the request of our designer, I went and tested an induction rangetop.  Shockingly it was rather amazing.  I’ve seriously loved our BlueStar, but will be replacing the range here in the next months with an induction setup.

 

This brings me to a pan problem.  This is a terribly dirty picture of our kitchen as I was doing a bunch of prep work for a family member in need, but while the pans were out I shot a pic.

 

There were two in the sink I forgot to include...but all of those were painstakingly carried home from Paris and none of them will work on the induction.  I love the pans and how they’ve treated me the past 25 years, but have to look forward.  To mimic these as closely as possible there are 4 major choices, 3 of which belong in this thread for discussion and one alternative outlier.  This brings me to a question and if the Q&A for this great thread 

was still open, I'd ask there but think it fits best in this thread now. 

 

For this thread, I’d prefer to look into the Saucier choices as I am not buying a matching set and will pick each pan for it’s purpose.  For these I have convinced myself copper most likely makes sense.  Here are the choices. 

 

Saucier	Thickness	Cu/Al	Price
deBuyer Prima Matera	2mm	1.8mm	$$$
Falk Copper Core	2.5mm	1.9mm	$$
Mauviel M'6S	2.7mm	1.5mm	$$
Demeyere Atlantis	3.3mm	2mm	$

 

 

Other options and their thickness I nixed already:

All Clad D3 2.6mm, Madein 2.7mm/2.3mm, Hestan Copper 2.3mm (only 1mm copper), Mauviel Induc’nox 2.6mm, Fissler (flat bottom saucier)

 

If money were no object, I think the Prima Matera spec wise looks the most interesting and like what I had, but only 1.8mm of copper coming from 2.5mm frightens me and while the Falk Copper Coeur have a little less and are "ruined“ by the extra stainless but are significantly less money.

 

All of the above options are cheaper in Europe and being I will be going in November for work I thought I would either piggyback a trip to Belgium or France to grab what I need.

 

So if you were choosing a copper saucier and were willing to bend the budget to make it work, what would you choose and why? 

 

I have lots of Falk and some Demeyere.  One problem I have with Atlantis is that most of the weight is in the bottom, making poring unwieldy.  When I want a pot, what I usually grab is Fissler.

 

[Deephaven]

1 hour ago, afs said:

I have Demeyere Proline/Atlantis and Falk Copper Core in the test kitchen here (several dozen pieces total).  I've looked at Prima Matera.  Mauviel makes me nervous for various reasons which I'll get into, but it might be very nice cookware.

I realized that the Demeyere was an outlier and not copper in the saucier, but included it as it seemed to be the most logical non-copper answer to my question.  The M'6s actually has a magnetic bottom.  

...at least from the pictures at Dehillerin...I realize that those aren't "labeled" M'6s, but my experience with their stuff is that my guess is that it is right, plus if I bought I'd do it there again.

 

I partially posted my embarrassing picture to show how much I will also "clean my copper".  Basically never.  I don't care.  I cook with it.  The patina I find awesome.

 

38 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I have lots of Falk and some Demeyere.  One problem I have with Atlantis is that most of the weight is in the bottom, making poring unwieldy.  When I want a pot, what I usually grab is Fissler.

 

Is that referring to the saucier in particular?  I ask because for sauce pans I am definitely contemplating Fissler pans, but was most interested in sauciers (and actually frying pans) related to this thread.  I have a complex over the lack of cladding of the conductor up the sides of a saucier which led me to post.

 

2 hours ago, afs said:

 

I have Demeyere Proline/Atlantis and Falk Copper Core in the test kitchen here (several dozen pieces total). 

Awesome.  So if you were just buying a few sauciers, which would you choose?  I love the lack of rivets for this, but also imagine the copper coeur is more responsive.

2 hours ago, afs said:

 

First of all, I believe that the Demeyre Atlantis sauciers are fully-clad aluminum pans (as are the frying pans...sometimes marketed separately as "Proline"). 

 

That is correct.  I also cheated and only used the thickness on the larger saucier.  The smaller are thinner by a couple tenths.

2 hours ago, afs said:

I use the Demeyere gear for certain applications

Curious what applications.  As for the lids, I generally prefer universal silicon glass lids as I can reach for one and have it cover multiple pans...ie, I suck at organizing lids.

2 hours ago, afs said:

 

Most of the cookware in active use here is Falk Copper Core.  It's all fully-clad, so I get a nice temperature gradient.  It's copper, so I get very responsive heating and very quick preheating (which is doubly great on a temperature-controlled induction hob like the Control Freak).  

Noticeably more responsive than the Demeyere?

2 hours ago, afs said:

The deBuyer Prima Matera have been on my list solely out of interest because of their exposed copper. 

My draw isn't the exposed copper that I won't clean, but the lack of the stainless "insulator".  Figured they should be a step more responsive than the Falk for that reason.  Probably splitting hairs, but hey, I overkill everything!

2 hours ago, afs said:

As for me, I bought more than a half dozen different pans and tested them--and then ended up buying more Falk pans after the testing was complete.  Your results and goals may vary.

I had contemplated that as well.  Worst case I lose a little money.  I just want a shopping list here so I can pick my destination.  I don't think I have time for both Paris and Belgium, but that does sound like a fun trip   Work has me in Europe at least 3x a year though so I can grab more later.  Will need something to start cooking right away once the house is done though.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

26 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

Is that referring to the saucier in particular?  I ask because for sauce pans I am definitely contemplating Fissler pans, but was most interested in sauciers (and actually frying pans) related to this thread.  I have a complex over the lack of cladding of the conductor up the sides of a saucier which led me to post.

 

No, sorry, I was complaining about the balance of the Atlantis sauce pan.  My Demeyere saucier is from the John Pawson line, not Atlantis, although I believe the construction is similar.

 

[Deephaven]

1 hour ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

No, sorry, I was complaining about the balance of the Atlantis sauce pan.  My Demeyere saucier is from the John Pawson line, not Atlantis, although I believe the construction is similar.

 

Don't be sorry, great to know.  Helps the other decisions as well.  Being the copper pot thread, I didn't want to bring discussions of my non-copper selections to the front but had planned on Fissler for the straight walled sauce pans that I don't buy in saucier style.  As for the Pawson, different handles and lids but otherwise Atlantis as far as I can tell.  

[afs]

2 hours ago, Deephaven said:

The M'6s actually has a magnetic bottom.  

...at least from the pictures at Dehillerin...I realize that those aren't "labeled" M'6s, but my experience with their stuff is that my guess is that it is right, plus if I bought I'd do it there again.

 

Oh, I love a good puzzle!

 

I headed over to e dehillerin's website and found that pan (and the "CURVED SAUTE PAN IN COPPER S/STEEL - INDUCTION").  It looks like those are deBuyer pans (by the logo on the top of the saute pan's handle, maybe...but especially by the design on the bottom which looks just like Prima Matera).  Or they're maybe a custom-branded product for e dehillerin.  Curious.

 

I dug into the M'6s over on eBay (item 166091634031) and can see that they indeed have a stainless steel bottom (and it looks like the bottom outer rim is stainless steel too, cleverly hid in the photos).  Kitchen Universe describes their copper as a "copper polish" and the photo on Kitchen Universe seems to indicate that the pan is actually an aluminum pan with a shiny copper polish layer on the visible perimeter.  Do you happen to have a source as to the 1.5mm copper noted earlier?  I would love to find some sources from Mauviel.

 

2 hours ago, Deephaven said:

Awesome.  So if you were just buying a few sauciers, which would you choose?  I love the lack of rivets for this, but also imagine the copper coeur is more responsive.

 

For sauciers, I really like the Falk Copper Core but I could live with the Demeyere Proline/Atlantis sauciers.  The Falk are definitely prettier in my eyes and I love the responsiveness, but the Demeyere sauciers are probably quite fine as pans (although not copper, so I don't want to veer off-topic here)
 

2 hours ago, Deephaven said:

[re: Demeyere]
Curious what applications.

Sometimes I use the Demeyre Atlantis/Proline (aluminum) frying pans to make omelets.  They don't have any hard edges and they spread out heat pretty evenly.  I usually cook other styles of eggs in a 20cm Falk Copper Core saute pan.
 

2 hours ago, Deephaven said:

[re: Falk vs Demeyere]
Noticeably more responsive than the Demeyere?

 

The Demeyere Atlantis copper disc pans are pretty responsive.  I could live with them.  I have several Demeyere Proline/Atlantis pans, but for some reason I usually reach for the Falk Copper Core instead.  But if I'm making something like grilled cheese and I don't have a big enough induction burner, then I go for the Demeyere copper disc-bottom saute pan since I'm just trying to cook the bottom evenly.

I used to always cook things like bacon in the Demeyere frying pans because I cook at a fairly low temperature (137C vs. a more traditional bacon cooking temperature like 160-165C)--and the Demeyere pans welled up the bacon grease and cooked the bacon more evenly.  But after going back and forth a few times, I realized that I could get equal or better results with a Falk Copper Core 28cm frying pan if I had a big enough burner or just moved the pan around every time I flipped the bacon (to optimize heat under the appropriate edge).  I love "set it and forget it" but I'm also continually seeking the best end product, so I'm torn between the two lines sometimes.
 

2 hours ago, Deephaven said:

[re: Prima Matera]

My draw isn't the exposed copper that I won't clean, but the lack of the stainless "insulator".  Figured they should be a step more responsive than the Falk for that reason.  Probably splitting hairs, but hey, I overkill everything!

 

Lol, I went through the same thought process.  I wondered if the thin stainless steel layer on the outside would make the Falk pan less responsiveness.  I guess it could go either way.  Now I wish I had a Prima Matera here to run some tests.

 

BTW, two final notes on Prima Matera:
1. There are induction-compatible AND non-induction-compatible versions of that product line.  If going induction, please be absolutely sure you're buying the induction-compatible version.  I don't know why they made two options, as it's so confusing.

2. If money is not a big concern, it looks like deBuyer has been expanding their Prima Matera line and that there are now more shapes and/or sizes of pans available than when I originally investigated it.  So it may be more competitive now with the other copper options, from a variety standpoint.

 

Then again, if money isn't a big concern, there are always silver pans   [Sorry, off topic.  And way out of my budget.  I'll stop there.]

[Deephaven]

7 minutes ago, afs said:

I headed over to e dehillerin's website and found that pan (and the "CURVED SAUTE PAN IN COPPER S/STEEL - INDUCTION").  It looks like those are deBuyer pans (by the logo on the top of the saute pan's handle, maybe...but especially by the design on the bottom which looks just like Prima Matera).  Or they're maybe a custom-branded product for e dehillerin.  Curious.

 

Classically Mauviel has made their pans.  You will recognize the Inductnox finish from the past as the Mauviel pre-M'cook series.  I think they spec'd handles and had them built that way.

7 minutes ago, afs said:

 

I dug into the M'6s over on eBay (item 166091634031) and can see that they indeed have a stainless steel bottom (and it looks like the bottom outer rim is stainless steel too, cleverly hid in the photos).  Kitchen Universe describes their copper as a "copper polish" and the photo on Kitchen Universe seems to indicate that the pan is actually an aluminum pan with a shiny copper polish layer on the visible perimeter.  Do you happen to have a source as to the 1.5mm copper noted earlier?  I would love to find some sources from Mauviel.

I can't link my source...directly that is.  I emailed Mauviel to ask.  They also have a "requirement" of 60% only power which they clarified was to prevent being sued for warping a pan due to heating it too high and had no issues putting the pans on full boost power to compensate for when a cold hunk of anything hits the pan you are trying to brown.

 

7 minutes ago, afs said:

For sauciers, I really like the Falk Copper Core but I could live with the Demeyere Proline/Atlantis sauciers.  The Falk are definitely prettier in my eyes and I love the responsiveness, but the Demeyere sauciers are probably quite fine as pans (although not copper, so I don't want to veer off-topic here)

More responsive and equally as even or is there a trade off.  I don't care about the price difference if one is truly better.  My goal was to replace my copper pans and if the Demeyere is the better choice even being a copper thread I think it is logical to discuss.  If it is just a cheaper approximation of the Falk then that works for me as well.  Either way it means a trip to Belgium which is fun.

 

7 minutes ago, afs said:

Sometimes I use the Demeyre Atlantis/Proline (aluminum) frying pans to make omelets.  They don't have any hard edges and they spread out heat pretty evenly.  I usually cook other styles of eggs in a 20cm Falk Copper Core saute pan.

Probably for a different thread, but sounds like you like the Proline frying pan.  Had contemplated getting one of those regardless of what copper I buy solely as a "replacement" for my cast iron...although not sure I will get rid of the cast.  I am diseased.

7 minutes ago, afs said:

The Demeyere Atlantis copper disc pans are pretty responsive.  I could live with them.  I have several Demeyere Proline/Atlantis pans, but for some reason I usually reach for the Falk Copper Core instead.  But if I'm making something like grilled cheese and I don't have a big enough induction burner, then I go for the Demeyere copper disc-bottom saute pan since I'm just trying to cook the bottom evenly.

For that though I assume a Fissler disk bottom may be even better?  I need a saute as well....

7 minutes ago, afs said:

Lol, I went through the same thought process.  I wondered if the thin stainless steel layer on the outside would make the Falk pan less responsiveness.  I guess it could go either way.  Now I wish I had a Prima Matera here to run some tests....

Then again, if money isn't a big concern, there are always silver pans   [Sorry, off topic.  And way out of my budget.  I'll stop there.]

Where generally are you?  Perhaps I should buy one and we test.

And NO silver is NOT in my budget...and isn't induction friendly so there is no way I am stretching it.

 

[afs]

17 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

[re: Demeyere copper disc-bottom pans]

For that though I assume a Fissler disk bottom may be even better?  I need a saute as well....

I have Fissler OP pans.  The Demeyere copper disc-bottom pans seem to spread heat more evenly (as seen in both my cooking and under an IR camera).  Actually the Paderno Grand Gourmet pans may perform better than my Fissler pans as well.  All of the above are nice pans in various applications.

Regarding silver, I of course mean induction-compatible silver pans.  You wouldn't even notice the stainless steel layer welded on the bottom    If you and I were on the same side of the pond perhaps fun would ensue.

Edited August 1, 2023 by afs (log)