Divulging names of Restaurant "finds"

[pierre45]

This topic was discussed under" la regalade". I thought its important enough to merit a separate topic.

John talbot makes some excellent points about why names of rest finds should be shared,therefore i am going to mention the cons

When a name is mentioned,specially repeatedly to a large audience.the ability of the rest to cope becomes streched.Three things usually happen.

-Instead of the previous 1 sitting 2 are initiated,putting the end to leasurly dining.

-Prices go up.Bien sure ,this is capitalism after all.

-Service is harried and the quality of food deteriorates.Smaller portions become degustation opportunity?. Tourists are not fussy,n'est ce pas.

I am going to give names of restaurants that have gone that route. or are on their way.

-La regalade

-le clos des gourmets

-au bon accueil

-aux Lyonnais

-L'entredgeu.Not yet but on its way(I'm dining there with american friends this sat)

Etc,etc

Obviousely this is a dilemna.How do you share your find without destroying the charm and pleasure of one's discovery.

[Bux]

Thanks Pierre. I was thinking this deserved a separate topic while I was posting in the Régalade thread and my post there was obviously prompted by the conversation we had. It should be clear from what I've already said on the subject, that I have mixed feelings. I feel I can both substantiate and oppose your claims depending on the examples I choose.

The food deteriorates not so much because the tourists are not fussy as much as because they're not a repeat customer on an individual basis. A week later they're gone from the scene and can't return no matter who much or how little they enjoyed their meal. Moreover a good enough review in a magazine or guide will assure a steady flow of potential diners for at least a year from the one good meal the reviewer had, no matter how much the quality drops. In a way that's the advantage of an online discussion over a printed review.

Regarding Aux Lyonnais, even the online reviews I read spoke of the ex-chef and only eGullet offered an up to date view. Oddly enough we went anyway and were relatively pleased. By and large the ingredients were still first rate and the care in cooking was on par with what we experienced last time with but one exception--the potatoes with my liver were reheated and rubbery. That's unacceptable, but with one element in various savory dishes ordered by five diners at lunch, it's hardly a complete failure especially when we threw the kitchen off by taking the baby out for walks in turn until he went to sleep. My daughter was very uptight about anyone hearing him whimper in a restaurant. The boudin noir was canned I believe, but it was the Iparla brand which I also believe is made by Christian Parra in the Basque region and possibly second to none. The rustic fare left most of my tablemates too full for dessert but my peach Melba and a companion's classic souffle were on the money. I don't believe that all in all, we found better value in Paris. If we did, it was at l'Atelier de Robuchon.

La Régalade seems to be returning according to reports here and that's another part of the story. Restaurants have lives and cycles that are shorter today than they used to be. They also go out of fashion with the tourists.

I too don't know the answer, but it's obvious that no restaurant in Paris hides under a rock and any restaurant of quality will find itself in a guide or reviewed in a magazine in fairly short order. The odds are that a reference on eGullet will likely bring a better class of tourist anyway. The trick, I think is to bury the good reviews among the more abstract discussions that will not interest the average tourist and discourage them from finding those reviews. The question is how to answer those innocents who post that they are going to Paris and the Riviera for the first time and want to know where to eat. As a host, I'm reluctant to be inhospitable, but I genuinely understand the silence of others and I generally answer a question with a question in such instances trying to draw out their interests while encouraging them to read the site for all they can learn. I will rarely offer up my hidden choices off the bat.

[Chef Shogun]

Alright, I've read this thread, and the linked threads, and I'm still trying to figure this one out. Is it a peculiarity of the Paris food scene? Are places really that suseptable to 'destruction' by a couple extra covers every night? Don't they need the money, or is it possible to survive on a cabal of dedicated but protective regulars? I'll readily accept that the Paris restaurant dynamic is different than that of the US, but my general understanding is that restaurants are generally welcoming of more customers, and especially their money!

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Alright, I've read this thread, and the linked threads, and I'm still trying to figure this one out.  Is it a peculiarity of the Paris food scene?  Are places really that suseptable to 'destruction' by a couple extra covers every night?  Don't they need the money, or is it possible to survive on a cabal of dedicated but protective regulars?  I'll readily accept that the Paris restaurant dynamic is different than that of the US, but my general understanding is that restaurants are generally welcoming of more customers, and especially their money!

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I ask others to correct me if I am wrong here, but I think that the kind of restaurant that is under discussion here is a 1) small, 2) personally run (often husband and wife), neighborhood kitchen and dining room (frequently at the end of a metro line in the outer arrondisements). The chef many times has experience in a multi-starred kitchen and has decided to strike out for himself, and following Yves' route, choosing a budget menu venue. Once he is established in his neighborhood, he has a full house of regulars every night. He may choose to do only one sitting an evening. His wife may run the front room. Even after they have a child, they may be able to continue this way of life. Life is good. Dealing with language/culture impared tourists is not a daily problem.

At what point do he and his wife/family encourage additional seats or sittings in order to increase the daily take? Apparently not a few young chefs are finding that the good life is not necessarily the harried life.

[Busboy]

I'd suggest that the problems you fear don't arise from, say, an eGulleter having a fine meal and posting (we're not quite the Guide Rouge...yet) or telling a few friends but, rather, from guidebooks/newspapers/glossy magazines touting a place.

In which case, the proper approach is to whisper to a friend - or advise us -- "go there now, before it's 'discovered.'"

Word of mouth doesn't make restaurants complacent, it keeps them in business. Media recognition tempts them to the low road. Tell your friends before they and everyone else read about it; that's what friends are for.

Edited September 24, 2004 by Busboy (log)

[bleudauvergne]

Last night this subject troubled me. I was flipping through this month's French Saveurs and ran across a blurb on exactly what Margaret describes, a young chef that has worked in great kitchens and has decided to open a small place in the 14th where the locals adore him. I think he has something like 16 couverts. A very saveuresque photo shows him in the door of the place with a nice view of the rustic simplicty of his decor. It was a glowing report about how it was the highest quality fare at a reasonable price and in a cozy atmosphere, even the wine list is great value. This is just the gem we are always searching for. Hmm, we should go there next time we're in Paris was my first thought. But the thoughts that came at me from there were - I bet they're innundated right now, it's probably impossible to get a table. I wonder how long that's going to last now that they've blabbed it in Saveur. I then thought of the type of people like me, who can't really afford to dine out often, so when we do, its a very careful choice with much anticipation, and what the experience would be like if I went to this restaurant and found it lacking after such a glowing review. Imagine the pressure that a press review for a small operation puts on them, Bux mentions this in his post. Of course some restauranteurs have the mettle to ride it out, and become the old standbys. But when something like that comes out, they better not be taken by suprise or else it will be the ruin of the place.

I have to agree with Busboy about sharing info among friends on good places. Usually that's how we find the best places (by that I mean good at a price we can afford) here in Lyon. We don't much take written reviews into account, unless they are reinforced by the opinion of someone we know who's eaten there.

Now that I've added not one iota of clarity to this subject, I will go back to work!

[John Talbott]

I'm not quoting anybody above but addressing the issue in general again. I think the discussion has been very good. But I still think there are several points worth taking into consideration.

1. Are we talking about reviews in the French or American press? Because most first-timers or occasional visitors to Paris read the NYT or Gourmet and usually those places have already been well reported already in the French dailies and weeklies. It's always amazed me how the French do not flood a Parisian restaurant say after a 3 or 4 heart review in Figaroscope whereas in NY, try to get a rez after the NYT. My point, as others have said, watch the French press and go promptly and don't weep if it fills up soon.

2. I suspect that Saveur's little place in the 14th run by a husband and wife was also featured #1 by Sebastien Demorand in this week's Zurban, see the Digest which I'll be posting this w/e, if it's the place with 20 not 16 couverts (and if not, it will be soon.) S.D., by the way, lists his top bistros as: le Paul-Bert, l’Ami Jean, l’Ourcine, les Papilles, le Baratin, le Repaire de Cartouche, l’Avant Goût, le Troquet, le Mesturet, Chez Georges, la Régalade, so much for secrets.

3. I agree with all the above that eGulleteers alone are not going to "ruin" a place. But I disagree that the occasional eater won't return. Even the once-a-year friends who trust me and eat at places from my list often go back, long after they've dropped off my list, and are remembered (I'd rather not know why).

4. And then there's the other side of the coin, the terrific place that's pretty empty at lunch but full at dinner (with real locals) but which needs both to do well, for example, l'Abadache, which was written up well by Zurban, Figaroscope and Pariscope but is 3 blocks from the Brochant Metro stop in the 17th, where I've eaten at twice (reported on Sept 2) and is also run by a charming couple, busy having babies and enjoying it, but wondering if at least one review was not on-target and better reviews and word-of-mouth helpfill up the lunch tables. So I'm more than willing to divulge if not promote it.

[pierre45]

I would like to clarify my position on the issues discussed.

_I don't think that the egullet audience has too much of an impact on a restaurant's popularity , hence loss of charme,etc.so far any how.

-French press does not have too much influence over restaurants.You can very easily make a reservation after aricles appear praising a given restaurant.

_American press and guidebooks have a tremendous influence over the appeal of restaurants ,specially for tourists.

However the combination of all these elements,specially over time increases the demand for a small place.It does not take too many diners for an overload .

The only people who suffer , are the local patrons and perhaps the occasional visitor who seeks an authentic,charming and reasonable place.

Fortunately ,new ones open all the time and the key is finding them and sharing them with those who really appreciate those qualities.

[Fat Guy]

It's extremely difficult to coordinate the actions of two people, no less a hundred. The notion that all the customers of a restaurant could get together to keep it a secret is laughable. Information is more powerful than people. It will find its way around those who try to bury it, and it will wind up in all the same places.

Great restaurants will get discovered. You can either be generous, help them get discovered, and be part of the process of giving credit where credit is due; or you can make a failed attempt to bury the information while you watch the other thousand people who dined there recently make it happen. But it's going to happen either way.

Furthermore, if a restaurant allows itself to be ruined by being discovered, it's not as great a restaurant as you thought it was. The truly great places don't get ruined. They turn the extra business and attention into better food, decor, and service.

[bleudauvergne]

1. Are we talking about reviews in the French or American press? Because most first-timers or occasional visitors to Paris read the NYT or Gourmet and usually those places have already been well reported already in the French dailies and weeklies. It's always amazed me how the French do not flood a Parisian restaurant say after a 3 or 4 heart review in Figaroscope whereas in NY, try to get a rez after the NYT. My point, as others have said, watch the French press and go promptly and don't weep if it fills up soon.

-French press does not have too much influence over restaurants.You can very easily make a reservation after aricles appear praising a given restaurant.

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On the one hand, I don't know of any restauranteur who does not take press reviews seriously. I think Bux is right in his statement that one glowing review can assure steady clientele for a long time. However this point about the difference between French and American press is interesting to note.

My next question is what, then, for the French, makes a restaurant the fashionable new find? If not the press, what is it?

I've edited this after reading the thread more carefully.

[Bux]

Alright, I've read this thread, and the linked threads, and I'm still trying to figure this one out.  Is it a peculiarity of the Paris food scene?  Are places really that suseptable to 'destruction' by a couple extra covers every night?  Don't they need the money, or is it possible to survive on a cabal of dedicated but protective regulars?  I'll readily accept that the Paris restaurant dynamic is different than that of the US, but my general understanding is that restaurants are generally welcoming of more customers, and especially their money!

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Let me go into this a bit further than margaret has. I suspect Chef Shogun is not familiar with eating in Paris. France, I have read, is the number one tourist destination in the world and most of the people who visit France never leave Paris. Paris must have more hotels than any city in the world and the highest density of hotels outside Las Vegas. We're not talking about a couple of extra covers. We're talking about droves of people looking for dinner. On the other hand, Parisians probably eat out much more often than Americans in any of our cities. It's far less common for Parisians to hold a dinner party at home than it is for Americans and far more common to eat out with friends, or alone. A neighborhood restaurant that's a good buy can easily live off the local traffic. There's a limit to the number of people a restaurant can feed well on a given night. A neighborhood bistro will function best when it's full of locals who know and understand the food and the quality will remain high when they're dependent on a clientele who both knows food and is prepared to eat there on a very regular basis.

The one common element between all restaurants is that they are a business and profit driven. They go out of business if they don't make a profit and the urge to cut a corner or increase prices is always there even in the best of kitchens. A good review brings tourists. the tourists make reservations in a restaurant that's normally full anyway and the locals start looking for another place to eat because they can't get in. The tourist crowd varies, but at its most damaging, it is not ready to order or eat what's on the menu. Waiters need to explain the dishes and sometimes to translate the menu. Service bogs down or the restaurant needs to hire anther waiter and pay a salary. Diners are disappointed with unfamiliar food and return perfectly cooked dishes because they didn't realize they were ordering raw fish, or blood and guts. Service takes another turn south and the restaurant has to cut more corners or raise prices to compensate. The tourists keep on coming with tear sheets from last season's glossy magazines in their pocket. More locals leave for various reasons. Final a new set of magazine articles appears in a year or two and tourists move on. The restaurant sits half empty and the locals walk by remembering how bad it was when it was full and assume it must be worse today.

[Bux]

3. I agree with all the above that eGulleteers alone are not going to "ruin" a place.  But I disagree that the occasional eater won't return.  Even the once-a-year friends who trust me and eat at places from my list often go back, long after they've dropped off my list, and are remembered (I'd rather not know why).

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When I speak in generalities, of course I'm not talking about 100% of the people in any group and visitors to Paris can be divided into any number of groups with each of the groups large enough to have an effect on local business. At one end we have the first time tourist who never returns, or who visits on their honeymoon and then twenty years later. At the other end, we have the regular visitor who's in Paris at least once a year for a week and maybe more often or for a longer stay. The one in a life time visitor makes up a large enough group to have the effect I speak of at its worst. Although a few of the Americans who sat within ear shot of us in restaurants in Paris last week spoke French to a small degree at least, none gave the appearance of being very familiar with French food and customs outside of perhaps Robuchon, where it seemed diners had done their homework. Not so at Benoit where shockingly to me, who was brought to think of France as the world capital of culture and refinement and who in early adulthood learned to think of as the center of civilised wining and dining, well heeled sexagenarian Americans were as at sea about ordering as I might be in outer Mongolia (if you haven't ever read Ellen Shapiro's account of her trip there, you should.) Most perplexing were the discussions about wine that attempted to show some knowledge, but were really rather meaningless, at least from my view. "Was the Chablis more "sec" than the "Pouilly-Fumé?" I rather preferred the less captain-of-industry approach of younger tourists who just put themselves in the hands of the waiter or sommelier.

[John Talbott]

My next question is what, then, for the French, makes a restaurant the fashionable new find?  If not the press, what is it? 

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Well last week F Simon implied the French flock to a place like Le Murano because it's "in" not because they know food, using the tataki of langoustines as an example.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Fat Guy asserts "Furthermore, if a restaurant allows itself to be ruined by being discovered, it's not as great a restaurant as you thought it was. The truly great places don't get ruined. They turn the extra business and attention into better food, decor, and service."

Better to some, perhaps. Certainly different.

[Bux]

Furthermore, if a restaurant allows itself to be ruined by being discovered, it's not as great a restaurant as you thought it was. The truly great places don't get ruined. They turn the extra business and attention into better food, decor, and service.

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Perhaps there's a semantic gap here. A "really" great place may not necessarily be "truly" great. I said, it was my favorite restaurant. She said, the credentialled foodies she sent there thought the food was heavy and greasy. We're on dangerous ground when we assume matched flatware is "better." When Camdeborde and his confreres left a two star environment they decided there was a better way to go than up and they ran the bistros that were wispered about in the three star restaurants. In the early days of la Régalade, if you were eating at Guy Savoy and the sommelier thought you knew something about food, he just might whisper something about La Régalade to you.

Another point is that the residents of the outer arrondissements of Paris won't support the prices one needs to charge for better decor or service. A restaurant in the far end of the 14th arr. has to move to get "better." I'd also suggest that at its best, la Régalade could not improve it's food, it could only make if fancier and serve rarer ingredients to justify a price increase. A full restaurant can only experience extra business by turning tables anyway.

[Maurice]

What's happened to l'Epi Dupin supports what Pierre45 has said. Too much good publicity has reduced the resto substantially. On the other hand, after a spate of raves and substantial publicity, Les Allobroges has remained excellent and a bargain. Maybe folks just don't want to venture into the darkest 20th, a most unfashionable and mysterious venue.

But in general, I agree with Pierre45. A good review in Figaro, although perhaph not lighting a Frenchman's fire, finds its way into food sites and blogs, and the American press, who lurk there, are always passionate to announce a new find. Tourists, Americans in particular, accept press reports as the word of God and hurry off to worship at the new "autel gastronomique." The results are more often than not dire. l'Epi Dupin seems the norm. Les Allobroges the lucky minority. Although don't expect their accountants to agree with me.

[Fat Guy]

I'm sure the restaurateurs of France very much appreciate that there are so many helpful diners who will love their restaurants enough to keep them secret.

[Bux]

I'm sure the restaurateurs of France very much appreciate that there are so many helpful diners who will love their restaurants enough to keep them secret.

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What I suspect some of them like is enough word of mouth to keep them full of the kind or people who will likely become regulars. There are surely many who will enjoy the quick profits of a good review in an American glossy, but I've talked to one journalist who had to listen to the complaints of Parisian bistro owners who were well reviewed by that same journalist. The tourist rush was short lived. Their regular clientele was driven away and it's taking time to bring them back.

[Fat Guy]

I'd suggest that the problems you fear don't arise from, say, an eGulleter having a fine meal and posting (we're not quite the Guide Rouge...yet) or telling a few friends but, rather, from guidebooks/newspapers/glossy magazines touting a place.

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Plenty of the people who write for those newspapers, glossy magazines, and guidebooks read eGullet. So if you're trying to keep something secret by posting it here, don't!

[Ptipois]

Alright, I've read this thread, and the linked threads, and I'm still trying to figure this one out.  Is it a peculiarity of the Paris food scene?  Are places really that suseptable to 'destruction' by a couple extra covers every night?  Don't they need the money, or is it possible to survive on a cabal of dedicated but protective regulars?  I'll readily accept that the Paris restaurant dynamic is different than that of the US, but my general understanding is that restaurants are generally welcoming of more customers, and especially their money!

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It's a universal pecularity of small, nice places (restaurants or not) that suddenly get crowded when the media praise them. Whole Greek islands may become spoiled in a couple of seasons' time once they get praised in guidebooks as a "quiet, small, friendly, heavenly place". Paris is full of small, friendly bistrots.

[pierre45]

What I suspect some of them like is enough word of mouth to keep them full of the kind or people who will likely become regulars. There are surely many who will enjoy the quick profits of a good review in an American glossy, but I've talked to one journalist who had to listen to the complaints of Parisian bistro owners who were well reviewed by that same journalist. The tourist rush was short lived. Their regular clientele was driven away and it's taking time to bring them back.

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The Parisian Pa and ma restaurant owners in general are not the type that think of franchising ,once they become succesful.they are quite happy in keeping "nos habitudes".They are very good at providng tasty dishes at reasonable prices in a friendly and attractive environement.Actually i think its an institution that's uniquely French and some of us are bemoaning the factors that lead to its demise.

[markk]

It's extremely difficult to coordinate the actions of two people, no less a hundred. The notion that all the customers of a restaurant could get together to keep it a secret is laughable. Information is more powerful than people. It will find its way around those who try to bury it, and it will wind up in all the same places.

Great restaurants will get discovered. You can either be generous, help them get discovered, and be part of the process of giving credit where credit is due; or you can make a failed attempt to bury the information while you watch the other thousand people who dined there recently make it happen. But it's going to happen either way.

Furthermore, if a restaurant allows itself to be ruined by being discovered, it's not as great a restaurant as you thought it was. The truly great places don't get ruined. They turn the extra business and attention into better food, decor, and service.

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This post is truer than true - it's everything I was thinking as I read through the thread, unable to come up in my mind with such a perfect way to express my identical thoughts.

But this is something I struggle with regularly, and would like to make a confession. I'm slightly selfish when it comes to great, as-yet undiscovered restaurants where I can still get a table by calling the same day, so I tend to keep them to myself. But I don't feel bad, because I know that I'm not hurting the restaurant, only attempting to forestall the inevitable. And so, as to your sentence that begins "You can either be generous, help them get discovered, and be part of the process of giving credit where credit is due...", in my own mind, the sentence finishes "... or you can stay out of the process, hoping to forestall the inevitable discovery, prolongong, however shortly, the period of time that you can easily get a table."

Still, I am in awe of how correct each of your thoughts is. Your first and third paragraphs, for which my own selfish dining agenda has no alternate wordings, hit the nail right on the head.

[Bux]

It's extremely difficult to coordinate the actions of two people, no less a hundred. The notion that all the customers of a restaurant could get together to keep it a secret is laughable. Information is more powerful than people. It will find its way around those who try to bury it, and it will wind up in all the same places.

Great restaurants will get discovered. You can either be generous, help them get discovered, and be part of the process of giving credit where credit is due; or you can make a failed attempt to bury the information while you watch the other thousand people who dined there recently make it happen. But it's going to happen either way.

Furthermore, if a restaurant allows itself to be ruined by being discovered, it's not as great a restaurant as you thought it was. The truly great places don't get ruined. They turn the extra business and attention into better food, decor, and service.

←

This post is truer than true - it's everything I was thinking as I read through the thread, unable to come up in my mind with such a perfect way to express my identical thoughts.

But this is something I struggle with regularly, and would like to make a confession.  I'm slightly selfish when it comes to great, as-yet undiscovered restaurants where I can still get a table by calling the same day, so I tend to keep them to myself.  But I don't feel bad, because I know that I'm not hurting the restaurant, only attempting to forestall the inevitable.  And so, as to your sentence that begins "You can either be generous, help them get discovered, and be part of the process of giving credit where credit is due...", in my own mind, the sentence finishes "... or you can stay out of the process, hoping to forestall the inevitable discovery, prolongong, however shortly, the period of time that you can easily get a table."

Still, I am in awe of how correct each of your thoughts is.  Your first and third paragraphs, for which my own selfish dining agenda has no alternate wordings, hit the nail right on the head.

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My guess is that you are thoroughly familiar with your local restaurant scene and not very well versed on dining in Paris. I can only state that the dynamic is very different in each market.

[Bux]

The Parisian Pa and ma restaurant owners in general are not the type that think of franchising ,once they become succesful.they are quite happy in keeping "nos habitudes".They are very good at providng tasty dishes at reasonable prices in a friendly and attractive environement.Actually i think its an institution that's uniquely French and some of us are bemoaning  the factors that lead to its demise.

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Pierre, you have the experience of not only understanding these restaurants, but of first had observation of the difference between the range of restaurants in Paris and those of NYC and its metropolitan suburbs. I will agree that the ma and pa restaurants in Paris are unlike the slick restaurant in either Paris or the NY area, while they are also as unlike most of the little places in NY as well. In my opinion, one can't comprehend the nature of the complaint being made in this thread without understanding that for these restaurants to "improve" they have to lose what it is that makes them desirable in the first place.

I'm sensing a dichotomy between the posts made by those who have lived in Paris for an extended period and those who have not.

[Bux]

Plenty of the people who write for those newspapers, glossy magazines, and guidebooks read eGullet. So if you're trying to keep something secret by posting it here, don't!

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The extent to which this is true may be a surprise to many members. The feedback I get used to surprise me. It really doesn't any longer.