The Evolution of the Pre-made desserts

[bripastryguy]

I would like to rebuttle a fellow eg members view on pre-made purchased desserts. I am a small wholesale company in Long Island NewYork. I supply 15 restaurants on mine own and others through distributors. My desserts are hand crafted using molds and the latest techniques, but still remaining true to the dessert form and flavor. My desserts are neither over sweet or overly done, quality ingredients and not to much foo foo. I dont wish to replace my fellow pastry chefs and artisians. We all get in a bind once in awhile so I offer a convenient aid to the ever increasing hard ships we indure in the enviroments we work. I do however wish to replace those huge hunks of cakes on dessert plates of the presence, cut down the portion size and intensify the flavor, the whole time retaining the integrity of the product and respect for our craft. I also wish to replace desserts that are made by chefs (Exec) just so they can have desserts to offer, what a slap in the face!

[cbarre02]

Brian what you are doing at work is a beutiful thing, offer quality products to people who are interested in quality products.

But what if an executive chef knows how to make his own desserts, then it's not so bad right.

[bripastryguy]

absolutely Cory, but it seems that most of them lack the time and know how to pull it off successfully. But to those who can I salute you and wish you well.

[Wendy DeBord]

I also wish to replace desserts that are made by chefs (Exec) just so they can have desserts to offer, what a slap in the face!

Hear hear Brian! I agree completely.......... and you do us all a favor by selling quality to help familarize people to that concept in a dessert course.

Gotta ask- whats up? Why the need to defend yourself?

P.S. Exec.'s that can bake should, those that can't- shouldn't, etc.........huge tanget subtopic I won't write anything further on.

[bripastryguy]

Because of this post I had to stand up

" I could see a chef start to purchase a premade dessert here and there, and eventually management would decide to cut out the pastry chef and pass the savings on to themselves.

What about the consumer's perception of a restaurant after he recognizes that Le Foux Nain, Cafe Avant Lard, and Hooters all have the exact same tart (I don't mean the waitress)? I can't speak for everyone, but I would much rather have a hand-crafted dessert instead of some thawed factory-molded thing and I would gladly pay more for a "real" dessert.

Dessert is something very special, and I hate to hear of chefs cutting costs by using prepared desserts. IMO, any pastry chef purchasing prepared desserts is damning the next generation of chefs. I fear seeing a trend in moving toward manufactured desserts. I don't want my dessert from a Super Mega Wal-Mart of the pastry world. I hope Pastry Art & Design will drop their column on prepared desserts and replace it with one discussing how to raise people's appreciation for fine pastry. "

I sell fine pastry to restaurants and ones that even have their own pastry chefs. The reasoning behind it is that usually us pastry chefs are understaffed, undet paid and under equipped. What I do is offer than an option, an option to use quality product (say mine) as opposed to some of the lack luster desserts sold these days and compliment their menus or say huge buffet offerings that can not be completed without outside purchases. I trailed for the Banquet Pastry Chef position (which I was offered, but later turned down) for the Marriott Marquis. They have a pretty big pastry staff with a skilled staff and Chef, they still purchase convenience items...tart shells, purees, some individual desserts (mini cheesecakes) for large banquets and functions.

I have a strong restaurant dessert background and am looking to service restaurants that want to compliment their meals and have their customers leaving with thoughts of a wonderful meal, not a so so dessert, that could ruin the Exec Chefs hard work.

[bripastryguy]

And another thing about dropping the column, I actually am going to use it as part of my business plan to go larger. I think the prepared dessert market is very much a part of what we do, just as much as sugar and chocolate work.

[tan319]

If I EVER do my dessert place idea, part of what I want to do is consult and perhaps provide desserts to restaurants that don't have a chef or ones that maybe I even used to work for.

But to do any volume in it, say, like Sweet Street, you would more then likely have to start using crap products, wouldn't you?

Because a lot of those restaurants aren't going to be able to understand if you're charging them more money for what they're getting.

I've seen this 1st hand delivering stuff to hotels, someone complaining because the price of a flan went up, and I'm thinking,"jeez, you're dishwasher could make a decent one for you for 1/2 the price.

That whole sweet street thing is a bummer to me.

I can see consulting or providing dessrts, as long as there is an effort to hand tailor them to the restaurant.

That's what I did when I was consulting.

Maybe one item crossed over.

But good luck, bri.

I can see what you're talking about.

[bripastryguy]

Ted,

I'm really trying to retain my integrity through the quality of my desserts. Yes I use "convenience products and shortcuts" but the majority is the real deal. I've had major dessert manufacturers take a look and tast of my stuff and they all say "this boy has been tainted yet, this is real stuff" I'm hoping not to have to resort to that. My big plan is to franchise my dessert shops.

[Wendy DeBord]

Yes I use "convenience products and shortcuts" but the majority is the real deal.

It depends upon what convience products your talking about-sure I use them too. I was whining the other day to Chefette about how inferior I felt looking at the photos from the WPF. My work load is so demanding during our peak season that the most I can get accomplished is a two component dessert. It's a struggle right now to find the fastest easiest route to accomplishing a dessert in time. I get 100 and 200 people parties dropped on me the day of the event or with one days prior notice and bam I gotta pull a rabbit out of my hat somehow.

I've used bought in canolli shells, tart shells, petite chocolate cups, cream horn shells. My chef used to buy in mousse mix and I hate to admit this but I've been backed into a corner a couple times where I had to use it. Days when we ran out of eggs, out of cream out of butter.........you pick up the next best thing and run with it. Days when I had to use premade individual tart shells and fill them with whatever I had left over and stick it on my ala carte menu.

I think theres a couple different levels of work.....we have fine dining (which seems to get all the attention) and then the rest. It's all about survival in the jungle I work in. Fine dining is somewhat of a dream land to me.

Bri, I can look at that qoute a couple ways........it doesn't offend me and I don't see it as something that should bother you,- but I totally respect that it has!

I think theres a huge difference between an artisain product your producing and a mass produced product thats being addressed. It just about made the hair on my arms standup reading that new column in pd&a too. I have all the same gut reactions.......worried about our jobs being completely eliminated and not thinking this has any place in a professional publication. To some extent we look to pd&a to inspire us, showcase our best, promote our industry. Our industry-does it include all pastries including mass produced stuff or does that belong in Modern Baking magazine where they do nothing from scratch? I think pa&d is blurring the lines by including those articles..........and it's not a good step.

Lets face it many of our great p chefs have gone on to create their own products with their names on it. (for many reasons) It's evolution. I'd rather see pa&d promote the artisain products being produced hands on by our best then feature Dawn premade cakes and how convient they are.

[tan319]

Exactly, Wendy!

At the bakery I work at, these more then qualified French guys use the dawn cream cake stuff, that '50/50 whipping cream stuff, pastry cream mix, and I know why.

To cut down on labor costs, food costs, etc.

If you want to have a halfway decent shelf life, that's what you do.

But boy, the difference the real stuff makes.

I ask my entremet guy all the time. "you would never use margarine in the brioche dough in France, right?", and he'll say, no, of course not.

I snack on the stuff we make there, and it's good, but when I eat something of mine at my restaurant, it's like , WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Slightly off topic but close to home, it's amusing to see what one has to do at retail, at least here.

For the last 2 weeks, on Saturdays, the entremet guy has asked me to do the fruit tarts.

The 1st week, I started out with this Hermes like slightly minimal look, apple slices standing up, etc., you could still see a bit of pastry cream, and he said I had to fill it up, which meant overloading it, just piling it on.

This last week, I covered every bit of surface while still retaining a bit of a tasteful look, and he said it still wasn't enough!

So I laughed and told him to finish it, I couldn't fuck with it any further.

He wasn't being crappy, they all say that if you don't pile it up, it won't sell!

Made me feel bad to be American.

Edited August 10, 2004 by tan319 (log)

[Wendy DeBord]

Just a stupid note on that fruit tart. If you put any glaze on it to extend shelf-life- you can't give the damn thing away in my area. Our 'upscale' grocery store sells those....I bet they sit in the case for months before just being thrown out.

P.S. The cream cake mix is pretty good. One bakery I worked at used this stuff. You use it as a base and add whatever you want to it. I believe it's what The Corner Bakery (a chain bakery) uses to make their cinnamon bundt cakes. You can add extra liquids to the batter and it still bakes up like a dream. It's that fake texture that us Americans love, a cake mix-verses a scratch butter cake.

You can keep the fake margerine stuff, I really didn't like that stuff.

What can you do? Our bakery prices have to be low enough to compete with the mass produced grocery store products. Americans don't always get the price to quality link. Advertising can brain wash, we don't taste and judge for ourselfs.

[Carrot Top]

It is true that advertising brainwashes...also true that we live in a society where 'as quick as possible and as inexpensive as possible' is usually a paramount concern for the majority of the public, and it is also true the comment about piling stuff on top of stuff to create the idea of largesse and 'quality' when it is really just fat quantity, usually.

Looking in from the outside as an ex-pastry chef/then chef...urgh. You guys in the trenches have a tough row to hoe.

We simply don't have the history of other countries/other cultures that will pay more for a fine quality of food...and decide to wear sneakers without a brand name or go without the newest sort of TV set when their household budget shows that decision.

The one hope I can see, IF as a pastry chef one is interested in producing 'artisan' goods vs. the usual, is to educate the consumer.

Define your artisan pastries as BEING artisan pastries. Market them as the marvels that they are.

'Artisan' bread was not well known, say, twenty years ago, particularly outside of big cities. And look how far it has come!

I'd really like to see the concept of 'Artisan' pastries become real in the average American's mind.

It won't ever CHANGE the obsequious availablity of production pastries, and of course they have their place too...both for the consumer when money is tight and for the producers when time and/or money can not be allotted.

But simply to have the IDEA exist....that would help the reality grow...

The words we use define our culture.

Let's 'talk up' Artisan pastries, what do you think?

For I am REALLY hungry for some!

[phaelon56]

Sinclair said this

.....we have fine dining (which seems to get all the attention) and then the rest. It's all about survival in the jungle I work in. Fine dining is somewhat of a dream land to me.

and this

I think theres a huge difference between an artisan product your producing and a mass produced product thats being addressed.

I couldn't agree more. Many of us here and in the general populace go to high end fine dining establishments only on occasion when we can afford it and have (which isn't often) a special day to celebrate. Mid range restaurants (let's say that outside of expensive major metro areas this would be $40 - $80 per couple for dinner without alcohol and no tax or tip included) probably make up the vast majority of dining experiences in terms of simple numbers (I'm leaving fast food and chains out of the equation).

If a restaurant I patronize either cannot afford a pastry chef due to their relatively small size or the numbers just don't work... I'd rather have a quality pre-made dessert from a reputable local specialty baker than have something that the chef threw together under the pressure of an already hectic day. Desserts deserve to be more than an afterthought but it's where they end up in many establishments. What I truly disdain but end up finding at some places are those overly sweet thawed out frozen dessrts that cme from some "specialty" supplier. Perhaps a step up the food chain from Sysco but still predictable crap. Places serving that would be better served by going to Costco, BJ's or Sam's and just buying frozen "gourmet" desserts there (I suspect that some already do).

The reality for me is that live in an area where only a handful of restaurants can afford or justify having a pc and if they choose to have one there' more than likely a shortage of qualified applicants. I don't think that operations like bripastryguy's present a threat - I believe they are a complement and could conceivably serve to raise the bar for dessert quality at mid-range restaurants. That's good for everybody in the long run. It should mean more discerning patrons and eventually more opportunities for pc's (at least in my ideal universe 'cause I love dessert).

[tan319]

Wendy,

I'm not sure what you meant by the fake margarine stuff.

They use that bakers roll out margarine stuff.

Gives me the jeebies no matter how you cut it.

Re: Glaze.: I think there's a diff in the glop you see in a supermarket bakery case tart and a decent French style "nappage' glazed tart.

Re: price vs. quality.

How much more do you have to charge for a product using butter or a decent but cheap coverture?

Not those fake American "chocolates" like Ambrosia, etc?

I agree with the above concerning artisian products, if we really have to call them that.

If Bri or Melmck or whoever is trying to compete with a grocery store or supermarket chain, on the stores terms, I don't know if that battle will be won.

I still think the public will embrace quality if educated and given the chance.

Assuming they're a bunch of dolts will insure that's what we attract, IMO.

[Murrmaid]

What I truly disdain but end up finding at some places are those overly sweet thawed out frozen dessrts that cme from some "specialty" supplier.

Exactly! I have nothing against premade desserts, Brian, but something pulled right out of the frig or freezer....just keep it. Many ready-made desserts would probably be lovely if someone at the restaurant put a little thought into the presentation.

There's a restaurant where I actually get a big slice of "their" (if they make it there, I'll eat my hat) chocolate layer cake to-go. It's divine, but needs to come to room temp (a tad colder) to be enjoyed. And I have been known to garnish it if feeling fancy, they feel no such obligation.

[Wendy DeBord]

And I have been known to garnish it if feeling fancy, they feel no such obligation.

The issues are pretty complicated, I think.

This is just one of dozens of issues: The club I'm currently working at does alot of volume with a mininum staff. I can honestly tell you there isn't 1 lazy person hiding at this job. We all run all day long. Currently I make our desserts but I don't plate any of my ala carte desserts. Desserts go to the guy working the salad station. This persons knowledge of dessert is less then your average native person off the street. Why? Typically the person working the salad station in the US is Mexican with a small English vocabulary. They don't know American desserts since they don't eat them and we don't speak each others languges well enough to communicate on the topic. The salad person typically has a rather demanding job just doing salads. The concept of having this position plate desserts sounds good in theory, since the salad station is usually the first one done for the evening. But everyone doesn't dine at the same time so their doing salads and desserts at the same time most of the night until the last couple tables are in.

If you buy in a pastry chef theres alot of other costs involved. Mainly, the pc can't work the line plus get their work done and be on site for every minute the restaurant is open. Adding a pc means making huge conpensations for the chef. It complicates their job. Etc.........on and on............

Anyway..........Ted.........I don't know the exact name of that 'maragine' stuff. I know it comes in boxed blocks and never needs to be refridgerated! It doesn't melt in the heat! Yuk! (I don't eat margarine at home so I don't know if thats similar, the stuff just doesn't melt? so it seems pretty fake to me)

Glaze = longer storage time. Word spreads. I can't sell a fresh fruit tart at my job. They'll buy anything else........I think they've been burned too many times that they just aren't willing to try these any more. Perhaps thats only in my small community....?

As far as how much do we have to charge to use good ingredients?.........I believe the biggest cost in bakerys is labor. So I don't really think the pricing would be prohibitive, yes you might need a more skilled worker to apply tempered chocolate verses non-tempering 'chocolate'.

In Chicagoland, the wealthier suburbs will support a quality bakery and do. But it takes patrons that know the differences and will pay for them. Unforunately thats not widely spread. In the middle income suburbs people still buy based on cost and bakeries are trapped by pricing. UNLESS they do something really well and can wait to build a reputation where patrons are willing to travel to their establishment.

I think the term 'artisain' could really help bakeries and pc.'s. Good points Carrot Top! But 'artisain' has already been stolen by chain grocery stores. Have you noticed they now all sell 'artisian' breads from some 'name' bakery. Have you bought any, I have.....their the same poorly baked stuff the grocery stores have always been selling. Soon, very soon "artisian" will mean nothing, they've ruin the word.

"Artisian" means nothing.....buying a cake from a bakery means nothing........quality isn't something regulated. Nothing will help the industry in the US. It's up to each individual shop (like Brians) to build it's own reputation and maintan it. You can't even get a group of bakery owners together to promote the business. No two bakeries have the same quality......or 'quality' doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. If I own a decent bakery and join a bakery allience with other bakeries that aren't as good.....they bring me down.

[nightscotsman]

In Chicagoland, the wealthier suburbs will support a quality bakery and do. But it takes patrons that know the differences and will pay for them. Unforunately thats not widely spread. In the middle income suburbs people still buy based on cost and bakeries are trapped by pricing. UNLESS they do something really well and can wait to build a reputation where patrons are willing to travel to their establishment.

I'm afraid I have to dispel this as a myth. In Forest Park - a wealthy Chicago suburb if there ever was one - Gerhard's is a lovely pastry shop in a highly visible central location doing very high quality product. I chatted with the owner and chef for awhile when I visited last year and I mentioned that he probably did a good business due to the upscale neighborhood. He said that's what he thought when he chose the location, but in fact he had to work very, very hard to educate his customers and he probably wouldn't be able to stay in business if he didn't have some substantial wholesale business from the big Chicago hotels. So it seems income level alone doesn't always determine discernment.

[Moopheus]

So it seems income level alone doesn't always determine discernment.

Yeah, or else there wouldn't be so many big ugly houses being built, or big ugly cars on the road.

It may also be useful to realize that discernment and taste are not exactly the same thing. One is being able to tell the difference between butter and margarine in your desserts, the other is about whether or not you want to eat a fruit tart. I think people should be educated about paying attention to what they eat, but I don't think people need to be educated about what they like. If your customers don't want to eat fruit tarts, so what? Make something else. Possibly, the more one learns to pay attention, the more things you might find you like, but that has to follow naturally, it can't be forced.

[tan319]

Re: Margarine: Yep, that's the stuff. it doesn't turn me on either, I would never use it but plenty do.

It will melt though.

fruit tarts: nappage is classic.

Goop isn't.

It makes the tart attractive also.

I have a hard time selling fruit based desserts too.

Not sure why.

I use fruit as a component.

Seems to work better that way.

I think Wendy is right on about pricing.

Everything still seems to sell for what it's always sold for, meanwhile, what HASN'T gone up in costs as far as ingredients, energy, etc.?

Oh, that's right, labor...

As far as educating the public goes, re" my post, I simply mean I've found that people will eat a lot of things most would think they wouldn't.

Given certain perimeters, of course.

If I had my own place and I was going to sell "pastry" pastries, the only thing I would probably buy in is Danish/Croissiants.

For Danish I would probably try the Uster IcEscapes (?), for croissiants, believe it or not, Pillsbury make an excellent, all butter ready to proof one that is one of the best I've ever tasted, taste and texture wise.

[Wendy DeBord]

Neil that bakery is in Lake Forest, IL. I'm extremely familar with it and the area- I used to work at Shoreacres (in Lake Bluff, IL) down the street from it. Many of our members lived in Lake Forest. Before I went back to baking Lake forest was my best selling fine art suburb. They used to hold a very nice art show there (but all thats off topic)-fabulous sales-huge money!!!!

There's more to chosing a neighborhood then just wealthy. That particular area Lake Forest consists of people that travel the world. They're people that own many homes and only live in town here for a couple months a year. Same thing for a couple other wealthy Chi town suburbs- like Barrington Hills, IL.

Where as Highland Park, IL (as one of our members does own a bakery there) has big money but most of the people still work and live there most of the year. They party alot!!! They're very family oriented.

You have your working rich and upper middle class and you have your truely wealthy. Those truely wealthy people have their own chefs, etc..... you can't build a business in their neighborhood because their so transient.

Location, location, location. It isn't always what you think.

Now on the other hand my family owned a bakery in what would have seemed to be a great location. Long Grove, IL.........a little tourist town with tons of gift shops-people go there for the day to shop. Who makes money in that town-the sit down resturants-why-the women shop but don't really buy, but it's ladies day out and they do spend on one treat- lunch. The gift shops go in and out faster then you can believe.

Now the surrounding town of Long Grove is very wealthy. Huge homes, etc....but a little unknown thing we didn't know was. The locals won't bother with the tourist area....too much hassle. Tourists shop, but they don't buy.

In Chi town area if you open a place in Oak Brook (suburb), people travel there to shop and buy. They are known for quality expensive shops and it draws people from distant suburbs. So does NorthBrook.

You gotta know your area.

Ted- I'll give you recipes and production methods to blow away that Uster crap. Nothing compares with your own danish.

Just another crazy side note. My manager had a take out order where he priced cookies at .50 cents a piece for standard large cookies (made by me from scratch with real ingredients). We sold similar at my parents bakery in the earily 80's for that same price. This client got 200 cookies for 100.00............what was he thinking?

[tan319]

Thanks, Wendy.

Truth be told, the last thing I want to do is get into Danish production!

I would want a sheeter and if I did, it would be a strictly inhouse thing.

Cookie story is hilarious

[phaelon56]

Glaze = longer storage time. Word spreads. I can't sell a fresh fruit tart at my job. They'll buy anything else........I think they've been burned too many times that they just aren't willing to try these any more. Perhaps thats only in my small community....?

Can you clarify? Does this mean that people assume glaze = longer storage time, therefore the fruit tart is likely not all that fresh? I have only made fruit tarts for home consumption but I like the way the glaze looks and also the fact that it holds the fruiti in place as arranged. The first few tiems I made tarts I used some thinned out apricto preserves with a bit of lemon juice cooked in as a glaze and was happy with it. On impulse I recently picked up a package of glaze powder in the grocery store. Am I likley to be disappointed with it or is it okat stuff?

By the way.... we have two good local bakery options. One is Biscotti's, an Italian oriented bakery whose biscotti is truly outstanding. They make a decnt fruit tart and they chose to locate in a slightly marginal neighborhood, knowing they'd draw people anyway. Prior to their opening a few years back, many locals folks (city of 150,000 with another 200,000 or more in the burbs) were driving 45 minutes each way to Utica NY to get Italian pastries.

The other option is the bakery at the big Wegman's Grocery. Our area is not affluent enough for them to have a Hermes department but they do have some decent commercial desserts. Their tarts are heavily glazed but the fruit always appears to be very fresh and has tasted that way when I"ve tried them. Not cheap - $4 for the mini tart, $16 for the 8" and $25 for the 11".

[jgarner53]

In my experience, at least, the glop on fruit pies/tarts (when it's glop, as opposed to glaze) is heavily dyed with food coloring, usually to mask inferior fruit underneath. So what you think is a tart with beautiful crimson strawberries is nasty red glop covering pallid, underripe, flavorless berries, all sitting on a soggy crust. Blecch.

I wouldn't buy that either.

So what may be happening is that people recall an experience like the one I just described and bypass fruit tarts, or else they think that the price is too high for fruit and crust. Perhaps that's not "fancy" enough for the event, and they feel a cake with fancy decorating would be more appropriate. Like having a fancy dessert means something rich - like triple Snickers cookies & cream peanut butter cheesecake.

Do people usually buy something else if they don't go for the fruit tart?

[tan319]

Glaze does preserve the fruit to an extent but it also "tarts" up the appearance.

I don't think the powdered stuff is going to give you the same results as a pro quality nappage that's properly balanced(good ratio of water to product used when prepped).

However, you could really carefully balance it out, maybe, by making it according to the directions then dab a bit on a plate and wait for it to set up.

If it's too thick, carefully reheat and thin it out with water or juice .

the apricot preserves method is probably better.

Also, just for yucks, maybe use a spray bottle to glaze your tart, that's what a lot of pros use.

I'm pretty sure Neil does that at the Bellagio in 'Vegas.

In any case, moderation and care is a key factor in getting a good result, no?

cheers and good luck!

[nightscotsman]

Also, just for yucks, maybe use a spray bottle to glaze your tart, that's what a lot of pros use.

I'm pretty sure Neil does that at the Bellagio in 'Vegas.

Uh huh, we have dedicated machines to heat and spray glaze on all fruit pastries that go in the pastry case. We just reach under the counter, pull out the hose, and glaze a whole sheet of fruit tarts in a few seconds with a very thin even coat. There's no way we could spend the time using a pastry brush and the results are much nicer.

Since Vegas has virtually no himidity most of the year, we have to use glaze. If we didn't, they would dry up in less than an hour and nobody would buy them.