What don't I understand about Vanilla

[RSincere]

I would love to upgrade from "Great Value" fake vanilla stuff to the real thing. I understand that if you buy double-strength vanilla, it isn't twice as expensive as single-strength, yet you can use half the amount the recipe calls for, so it's a smart purchase.

I looked at Penzeys.com, and their double-strength Madagascar Bourbon vanilla extract is $65.99 for a 16-oz. bottle, complete with an apology on their vanilla page for how much they are forced to charge.

Then watkinsonline.com, they have an 11-oz. bottle of double-strength Madagascar Bourbon vanilla extract for $13.99.

And what about the super cheap Mexican vanilla extract on eBay? How much of a risk is it to buy that?

Why are the prices so all over the place? There must be a basic difference between Penzeys and Watkins that I am missing.

Edited August 1, 2004 by RSincere (log)

[Wendy DeBord]

I'm certainly not an expert on this topic but I'll venture to give my thoughts on this. Hopefully other people here will chime in with their knowledge.

First your never going to get everyone to agree on whats best. We'll all give our opinions but you need to actually explore and come to your own conclusions if your serious.

Because of the pricing on vanilla I am forced to be conservative in my uses and purchases at work.

For everyday baked goods like cakes, fruit breads, I use imitation vanilla thats X3 strength and I use it just like reg. vanilla ounce per ounce (I don't use less). I don't believe anyone can detect a taste difference between real vanilla and imitation vanilla in 99.9% of baked (oven baked) items. I'm leaving that .o1% just to be open minded but I can't think of an exception. Alot of people will probably not want to agree with me on this issue but I respectfully desend, I don't believe you can taste the differences to warrent the extra expense and hassle of obtaining certain origin specific vanilla's.

For items that aren't baked-thats where you will really notice the difference in your vanilla choice. Using fresh vanilla beans is always my top pick, but I don't get them at work (too expensive). I use Nielsen Massey's vanilla bean paste in all my mousses, bavarians, custards, etc.... I think this paste is fabulous and not too far away from a real bean flavor.

I'm not up on the Mexican vanilla's I've read things about them not even containing real vanillian. I personally avoid these completely.

So I always stock two vanilla's, vanilla bean paste and imitation liquid vanilla. If given a choice (and I do for home use) I'd alway buy Nielsen Massey's brand over any other, I think they really have a great product.

http://www.nielsen-massey.com

[andiesenji]

Do not ever buy any of the vanilla extract that is made in Mexico. Much of it is adulterated and can be quite toxic.

By all means buy the Mexican vanilla beans, they are perfectly good, but not anything that has been processed into extract.

There are probably some fine producers in Mexico of vanilla products but without knowing who they are it is a crapshoot as to what you are buying.

I make my own extract.

I have never used the artificial stuff. Chemicals are not the most stable of substances and can change. I have tasted foods that have a strange metallic after-taste and invariably they have been made with an artificial vanilla flavoring.

Unless you are using gallons of the stuff, get the real thing. It makes a world of difference.

Edited August 1, 2004 by andiesenji (log)

[hillvalley]

How long do extracts last? I have some that is atleast 2 years old and I would hate to have to toss it.

[RSincere]

This is very interesting. I didn't know that about the Mexican vanilla, but the price sure seemed fishy. That explains it.

However, I still don't understand why there is such a huge disparity in price between the Penzeys 16 oz. at $66 and Watkins 11 oz. at $14. They are both double-strength, both are Madagascar Bourbon, and I don't see where the Watkins extract says that it's imitation. I have to be missing something obvious.

Penzeys: http://www.penzeys.com/cgi-bin/penzeys/p-p...gthvanilla.html

Watkins: http://www.watkinsonline.com/productDetail.cfm?product=576

I wouldn't get the Penzeys at that price, chemicals or no. The Watkins, I would maybe spend $14 on if I had the extra money. But not if it's imitation, because I can get a huge bottle of that from Walmart for $1.79.

Edited August 1, 2004 by RSincere (log)

[adegiulio]

Use the artificial stuff. It is actually more pure "vanilla" flavor than real vanilla extract. Vanillin (the actual stuff that makes vanilla taste the way it does) is very easy to make. In steeping vanilla beans in bourbon or some other alcohol, you are getting flavor compounds that you often don't want. By making vanillin artificially, you can single out the pure flavor, while being sure you dont get any of the other stuff in your vanilla. With all due respect to the people who think they can taste the difference, the difference you are tasting is the other stuff that makes it way into the vanilla, not some flaw with imitation stuff. And to the poster that says chemicals are "unstable", vanillin found in real and artificial vanillas are the same thing, chemically. They will both be stable or unstable at the same rate.

I feel some people have been brainwashed into thinking that something artificial must be inferior to something grown in nature. I think for most things that is true. In the case of vanilla, however, it isn't.

[adoxograph]

The first thing I would want to know about the Watkins is, what is the alcohol percentage in their extract? That number, if it is significantly higher than the Penzey's could explain a price difference.

I have also seen items labelled as "extract" which are simply a dark, vanilla scented liquid, and "extract" which has obvious, visible seeds with enough liquid to just make it pourable.

I would contact both manufacturers and get more information before buying if it's a concern, and then tell us... I'm curious to know m'self. :)

[andiesenji]

This site the Vanilla company, has an explanation of the Mexican vanilla which comes from Mexico.

Their Mexican vanilla is made from Mexican vanilla beans but is not the stuff from Mexico.

Click on "explanation" for the story about the stuff that is illegal to import into this country but can be bought on line from some sources.

And you can't convince me that artificial vanilla is the same as the real thing. It may have more "vanilla" flavor but I don't like it and I won't use it. There are subtle differences between the different types of vanilla and I can taste those.

[mktye]

After being perplexed by the myriad of vanilla extract choices for our holiday baking and inspired by the Cook’s Illustrated article, a group of friends and I also did our own blind vanilla tasting in December '03.

I wish we could have tested fresh vanilla beans along with the extracts, but availability and cost deterred us from that idea. I also regret not getting the Penzey's double-strength and using it at half the volume and comparing it to the single strength... maybe next time.

There were 8 tasters and we tested the extracts in four categories:

1. Scent

2. Custard (moist/cooked)

3. Sugar Cookies (dry/cooked)

4. Panna Cotta (moist/uncooked)

We found (in order of preference):

Penzey’s Spices Single Strength Madagascar Bourbon Pure Vanilla Extract

Overall: tied 1st (144 points)

Scent: 3rd (34 points)

Custard: 1st (42 points)

Cookies: 1st (39 points)

Panna Cotta: 5th (29 points)

Nielsen-Massey Madagascar Bourbon Pure Vanilla Extract

Overall: tied 1st (144 points)

Scent: 1st (39 points)

Custard: 4th (34 points)

Cookies: 2nd (37 points)

Panna Cotta: 2nd (34 points)

McCormick Pure Vanilla Extract

Overall: 3rd (138 points)

Scent: 4th (31 points)

Custard: 5th (33 points)

Cookies: 3rd (35 points)

Panna Cotta: 1st (39 points)

Nielsen-Massey Tahitian Pure Vanilla Extract

Overall: 4th (132 points)

Scent: 2nd (36 points)

Custard: 7th (31 points)

Cookies: 4th (32 points)

Panna Cotta: 3rd (33 points)

Nielsen-Massey Mexican Pure Vanilla Extract

Overall: 5th (125 points)

Scent: 5th (28 points)

Custard: 2nd (36 points)

Cookies: 4th (32 points)

Panna Cotta: 5th (29 points)

Trader Joe's Tahitian Vanilla Extract

Overall: 6th (115 points)

Scent: 5th (28 points)

Custard: 6th (32 points)

Cookies: 7th (23 points)

Panna Cotta: 4th (32 points)

Baker's Imitation Vanilla Flavor

Overall: 7th (113 points)

Scent: 7th (21 points)

Custard: 4th (34 points)

Cookies: 6th (30 points)

Panna Cotta: 7th (28 points)

Obviously, our results differed from those of the folks at Cook's Illustrated--the items made with the imitation vanilla were generally ranked lower than the real vanilla extracts. But the differences were very subtle. In other words, with the exception of the Tahitian vanilla that has some very pronounced floral notes, all of the vanillas produced a good-tasting and definitely edible end product. In fact, we had no problem finishing off the cookies, custard and panna cotta made with the imitation vanilla !

Lastly, I agree with adegiulio about the vanillin and how it is easy to replicate in a lab. However, I feel that some of those other flavor compounds found in vanilla bean extract are what makes it taste like "vanilla" to our palates. And the complexity of the flavor from the Penzey's & Nielsen-Massey Madagascar Bourbon vanillas was what made them the top picks in our taste test. To me, the imitation vanilla is more of a single note which works just fine when it is not the only flavor present.

[andiesenji]

Lastly, I agree with adegiulio about the vanillin and how it is easy to replicate in a lab. However, I feel that some of those other flavor compounds found in vanilla bean extract are what makes it taste like "vanilla" to our palates. And the complexity of the flavor from the Penzey's & Nielsen-Massey Madagascar Bourbon vanillas was what made them the top picks in our taste test. To me, the imitation vanilla is more of a single note which works just fine when it is not the only flavor present.

Excellent post Mktye.

There is one additional consideration about the artificial vanilla.

There is one grocery store chain with in-house bakery here in California that recently settled a suit because of using artificial flavors, including vanilla, in a product that was labeled "All Natural"....

If customers discover that there is something in a product that is not 100% natural, they will sue, at least in this suit-happy state. A lot of bakers that I know prefer to use natural products, label their products thusly and find their customers will pay a premium price for such.

[Wendy DeBord]

Hum............interesting stuff Mktye.

Just checking: Did one person do all the work making huge batches then breaking them down into portions and adding the different vanilla's into the same batch through out each tasting? You can't make seperate batches and then compare or worse yet have multiple people making batches that were tested. To some extent I think you have to mention who your judges were and how fresh your vanilla products were (so no one used something that was sitting in their cabinets for a long time).

Another thing is you only tested one brand of imitation. Shouldn't it have been more of a 50/50 mix? I think it's sort of not fair to only test one manufacture of imitation against all the big name real vanilla choices.

Also was this a blind taste test where no one could detect what product was in which bottle or item?

[Ore]

Ciao,

I do recall some mentions of legal terms and the word vanilla extract vs. vanilla flavor, etc.

For it to be called extract it has to have a certain %age of real vanilla bean?

any clarification on this? Thanks

Ore

[Bond Girl]

Mktye, great post. I am in the same quandry myself with Vanilla. Because of my current fascination with ice cream, I'm buring through my vanilla supply. It's just one of the more expensive stuff you have to get.

[origamicrane]

hi there

i tried a very interesting ice cream recently made from Tonka bean. It was really nice, like a very strong type of vanilla but more aromatic. Naturally i googled the recipe straight away and found out that the extract from tonka bean can be carcinogenic!!!!

It seems that in Mexico they use tonka bean as a vanilla substitute so not saying don't buy mexican vanilla just if it looks too good to be true it probably is.

ciao

[mktye]

Did one person do all the work making huge batches then breaking them down into portions and adding the different vanilla's into the same batch through out each tasting?

In a word, yes. I did.

Additionally, the cookies were all portioned with a scoop, baked in strictly-timed batches, and only the most consistently colored ones being tasted. Each tester was presented with a whole cookie for each type of vanilla.

The custards were all cooked at once in large ramekins in the same water bath, cooled and chilled identical amounts of time. Each panna cotta was also chilled the same as the others. For the panna cotta and custards, each tester received one spoonfull taken from the large ramekin of each type.

You can't make seperate batches and then compare or worse yet have multiple people making batches that were tested.

Which is why I took on the challenge of doing all the baking myself.

To some extent I think you have to mention who your judges were and how fresh your vanilla products were (so no one used something that was sitting in their cabinets for a long time).

Sure, I just did not want to bore you all... but since you asked...

All of the vanilla extracts/flavorings were bought fresh for the tasting. The Neilson-Massey's were bought from Sur La Table, the Penzey's vanilla mail-ordered from them directly, the Trader Joe's Tahitian Vanilla obviously came from TJ's, and the McCormick's and Baker's were bought at my local military commissary.

The tasters were all non-food-professionals and all women. The taster's baking expertise and palates ranged from novice to experienced. Ages from early-thirties to mid-fifties. Three blonds, five brunettes.

Another thing is you only tested one brand of imitation. Shouldn't it have been more of a 50/50 mix? I think it's sort of not fair to only test one manufacture of imitation against all the big name real vanilla choices.

You are right, it would have been more fair to test other brands of imitation vanilla, but that was the only brand I could locate in my area. Also, the purpose of our little test was not to compare imitation to "real" extracts, but to find the best readily-available vanilla to use in our holiday baking.

The initial idea for our own taste test came about from a discussion with a friend (who also was one of the tasters) while we were at a Sur La Table pondering the different types of vanilla. So I scooped up one of each (cha-ching), ordered the Penzey's, stopped by the various grocery stores and started the logistical planning.

Also was this a blind taste test where no one could detect what product was in which bottle or item?

Yes. For the scent test, each vanilla was placed in a small ramekin (so the bottles could not be recognized) marked with a number on the bottom. The ramekins were each covered with a piece of plastic wrap between testing so the volatile components of the vanillas were contained.

The tasted items were also marked with numbers (on the plates/spoons) and none of the numbers corresponded with the other tests. I.e., what was number "1" for the cookies was not the same vanilla as number "1" for the panna cotta and so forth.

For full disclosure, I did all of the numbering, wrote up the key and was one of the tasters. However, for the tasted items, I marked them all the day before and could not recall which number was what by the next day (I truly have no memory for numbers--there are days when I cannot even remember my own phone number! ). But since I had filled all the ramekins for the scent test that day, I did not look at the number on the bottom of the ramekin until after I had scored them all.

The best thing about the test... it was a blast. Could it have been more comprehensive? Sure, but it did answer the question to our satisfaction.

And, if I recall correctly, I liked the imitation vanilla cookies the best!

[viva]

damn, mktye, you're good.

[tirgoddess]

FYI, most all of Trader Joe's products are produced by suppliers who make quality branded products. Trader Joe's makes special buys since they usually pay cash, and then they create their own label, often using Adobe Photoshop.

[Wendy DeBord]

Cool, great work Mktye.

I'm having a hard time desiding which one looks best all around. I would have guessed that the smell test and the panna cotta would score in the same range and the baked items would score similarily close too. It happened with the baked goods from the Penzys' both ranking #1 and the scent and panna cotta results for the lower scored items were each close. So it seems that whats best for baking isn't the best for nonbaked goods, right?

Did you see any number of people score similarily........any patterns........all it would take is one person to desend and that would throw off the results, no? I can see why companies hire professional tasters.

[Bux]

Use the artificial stuff. It is actually more pure "vanilla" flavor than real vanilla extract. Vanillin (the actual stuff that makes vanilla taste the way it does) is very easy to make. In steeping vanilla beans in bourbon or some other alcohol ...

I trust there's no confusion here that Madagascar Bourbon Pure Vanilla Extract has anything to do with the whiskey. It is the extract of Madagascar Bourbon Vanilla Beans.

[merstar]

This is very interesting.  I didn't know that about the Mexican vanilla, but the price sure seemed fishy.  That explains it.

However, I still don't understand why there is such a huge disparity in price between the Penzeys 16 oz. at $66 and Watkins 11 oz. at $14.  They are both double-strength, both are Madagascar Bourbon, and I don't see where the Watkins extract says that it's imitation.  I have to be missing something obvious.

Penzeys:  http://www.penzeys.com/cgi-bin/penzeys/p-p...gthvanilla.html

Watkins:  http://www.watkinsonline.com/productDetail.cfm?product=576

I wouldn't get the Penzeys at that price, chemicals or no.  The Watkins, I would maybe spend $14 on if I had the extra money.  But not if it's imitation, because I can get a huge bottle of that from Walmart for $1.79.

What you are missing is what most people miss at first, as I did awhile back, and that is the fact that Watkins Madagascar Vanilla is NOT an extract. If you look at their site, you'll see the name of their vanilla does not include the word "extract." To be considered an extract, the product needs at least 35 % alcohol; Watkins has much less alcohol, plus other stuff that's not in vanilla extracts. So while their Madagascar is not an imitation vanilla, since it is indeed from Madagascar Vanilla beans, it is also not an extract. It does however, contain some other artificial ingredients that they do not list on their site. I did some research last year, and could find NOTHING about their ingredients. I e-mailed a Watkins rep and he apparently sent me the ingredients - I say apparently, because a few were missing from his list. I only found that out, because an Internet acquaintance posted the entire list for me right from her own bottle. They were not the same as for vanilla extract, which is simply water, sugar, alcohol, and vanilla bean extractives. The Watkins has some "fortified ingredients. I didn't like the fact that their rep omitted the full list of ingredients. What was he hiding? Meanwhile, I actually saved the list of the Watkins ingredients and here they are: water, corn syrup, propylene glycol, vanilla extract (alcohol, water, extractive of vanilla beans), alcohol (8.25%), artificial flavors, caramel color.

Here's some info about Watkins from http://www.homebiz-online.com/watkins_vanilla.htm

Why is Watkins Vanilla "imitation"?

Pure vanilla extract, by law, must be made with at least 13.35 ounces of vanilla bean per gallon of liquid, and must contain at least 35% alcohol by volume.

Imitation vanilla extract is any vanilla that contains other than natural vanilla flavors. Watkins Vanilla has a very low alcohol level (8.25%), which makes it more heat-resistant than pure vanilla.

Unlike most "imitation" vanilla, Watkins starts with the best Madagascar Bourbon vanilla beans. Once the extract is "brewed," it is fortified with ingredients that make the flavor bake-proof, freeze-proof, and double-strength.

Edited August 2, 2004 by merstar (log)

[adegiulio]

Use the artificial stuff. It is actually more pure "vanilla" flavor than real vanilla extract. Vanillin (the actual stuff that makes vanilla taste the way it does) is very easy to make. In steeping vanilla beans in bourbon or some other alcohol ...

I trust there's no confusion here that Madagascar Bourbon Pure Vanilla Extract has anything to do with the whiskey.

You "trust" there is no confusion? That's a rather arrogant comment to make. I didn't realize that the actual bean had "bourbon" in its name. I'm a fairly well educated foodie, and I didn't know that; something tells me I'm not the only one. I trust there's no confusion about that...

[mktye]

So it seems that whats best for baking isn't the best for nonbaked goods, right?

That is the way I look at it also. The volatile components of the uncooked vanilla really played a role in taste (and how much of that was actually smell?) of the panna cotta.

However, like in tasting the white cakes for the "White Cake" thread, the diferences were quite subtle. All of the custards, panna cotta and cookies were good. So I feel the overall result from the testing was that you really cannot go wrong in your choice of vanilla for most recipes. But, that said, I use the Penzey's.

The only real exception was the Tahitian vanillas. Especially the one from Trader Joe's that is quite strong in the upper, flowery notes. The tasters pretty much either liked it or hated it. The more novice cooks of the group tended to like it--possibly due to having a palate not quite a set it its ways as to how vanilla "should" taste, so they were more open to the taste? To me, it is a good flavor and definitely has its uses (I just bought another bottle), but it can be jarring if you are expecting traditional vanilla flavor. My best friend once used it in her signature peanut butter/cashew cookies with horrid results.

Did you see any number of people score similarily........any patterns........all it would take is one person to desend and that would throw off the results, no?

I'd post the raw scores, but, after searching through my desk and file cabinet, I realize they are in one of the many boxes up in the attic. And my type-A-ness does have its limits!

But from what I recall, most of the scores were pretty similar with the exception of the Tahitian vanillas. Oh yes, and my liking the imitation vanilla cookies the best (that was an anomalie from the rest of the group).

What I've always found interesting about the results is how the McCormick's vanilla was the favorite for the panna cotta. I cannot help but wonder if it is because most of the tasters (with the exception of one taster who was raised in Mexico) grew up with that being the vanilla their mothers always used for baking. Is it just what most Americans are trained as children to recognize as "vanilla"?

I can see why companies hire professional tasters.

Definitely. It is quite difficult to taste the subtleties and very, very tiring. We had lots of water and Carr's plain water crackers to help out the palate, but it still required a huge amount of concentration. The baking part was actually the easiest!

merstar--A big "thank you" for clearing up the Watkins vanilla questions. It sounds to me like you get what you pay for.

And lastly, I keep forgetting...

Hillvalley--just last month I used up the large bottle of Penzey's vanilla that I bought in December of 2003 for the taste testing. No noticable degredation.

[Fernwood]

It's interesting to me how our taste for something like vanilla (which is mostly smell) can be subjective and variable in some ways, yet reproducible and educated in others. I agree that McCormick or equivalent is probably the "reference" vanilla for many of us. I am also fond of Penzeys, but I ran out of it and bought a bottle of TJ's Tahitian without knowing to expect a difference. I was taken aback by the very flowery quality of it. In fact, I now have a bottle of supermarket vanilla beside it (store brand, but similar to good old McCormick), as I find the Tahitian unappealing for certain items. I feel better that mktye had a similar impression--I kept wondering if my nose was out of whack.

On the other hand, an individual's sense of smell can vary according to any number of factors, just one of which is the smeller's hormonal milieu. When I was pregnant with my second child I had some fairly typical and not very severe food aversions, but Edy's Vanilla Bean ice cream (not French Vanilla or plain Vanilla) was the most delicious substance on earth--nectar of the gods! I couldn't get enough of the vanilla-ness of the stuff.

Fern

[Tracy K.]

Madagascar Bourbon vanilla is named for the islands now known as Reunion and the Comoros, but in the early 19th century were called the Bourbon Islands. Madagascar (the island nation) had a brief period of French colonization, i.e., they had established trading posts in the southern region of the island, until their relations with the native Malagasy deteriorated and they fled to Reunion and Comoros, which are east of Madagascar in the Indian Ocean. This activity took place during the reign of the "Bourbon" kings of France, which ended with the French Revolution. Before the Europeans arrived, Madagascar had extensive trade relationships with the costal communities of East Africa.

(She's not just a baker, she's a history teacher too! And actually, the history of Madagascar is as fascinating as the search for the perfect vanilla. )

[RSincere]

merstar, thank you! That is exactly the information I was looking for. I'm glad you found that because I was trying to think of a good way to call Penzeys and say, "Why is Watkins vanilla so much cheaper than yours?"

That said, and based on what I've read here, I'm going to stick with my imitation vanilla and spend my food dollar somewhere where it will have more oomph for me. Not being facetious, but I can't exactly complain about the chemical-ness of the imitation stuff when I drink 2 cans of diet Coke a day.