Sacre bleu! It's the SAQ topic!

[carswell]

Wow, that's surprising, there are some pretty smart guys at Rockland. They also supply a ton of restaurants.

←

Well, as I said, this was a few years ago, specifically in the pre-Sélection days, back when they were in the basement. The new store's staff is more on the ball.

But you can still run across a clueless clerk, especially in the Classique outlets. A while back, not long after the SAQ expanded their selection of Canadian wines from downright pitiful to just plain pitiful, I ran across a bottle of a Bordeaux-style blend (cabernet sauvignon, merlot and cabernet franc, IIRC) from the Niagara Peninsula in my neighbourhood outlet. Never having tried an Ontario red, I was intrigued and thought, hey, for once I'll earn some brownie points by asking the wine advisor what he thinks. When I did, he looked at the bottle, snorted and dismissed me with a, "Moi, je ne bois que des vins faits des cépages nobles." Yeah, like cabernet and merlot ain't noble... In other words, not only was he an ignoramus, he was a snob too. Fortunately, he was transferred and the guy who replaced him is great.

[carswell]

I find the line-ups a hassle but generally the staff is more friendly than normal.  The fact that they're able still make over 75% of normal revenues tell the SAQ that they really don't need to negotiate.  Once the holiday season ends they won't need as much staff and they can wait the union out.

←

Yeah, you gotta wonder if the union isn't digging it's own grave.

However, there are some wines only at certain stores that are closed that I would like to get my hands on, but I guess I can wait until the new year.

Same here, though some of those are bottles I'll only buy during the Boxing Day sale and it looks like that's not happening this year...

[sf&m]

Maybe time to re-calibrate your taste buds?

A Quebec Marecheal Foch? DeChaunac? Ice Cider - but of course!!

Saturday The Marche des Saveurs' wine store was jammed! And folks were not buying the regular one or two bottles.... the cashier line up was filled with people carrying 6+ bottles. The Madam in front of me peeled off to add a Clos des Brume Solidago to her cart full of wine. "I use it instead of sherry" she informed me, and right she was.

Certainly you can stand a holiday bottle of Ice Cider, or how about a few bottles of Mousse des Pins for New Years? Try a bottle of Trubador (also from Vignoble des Pins) - a blend of Foch and Frontenac in what Gilles Benoit calls "Amarone" Style.

Most QC wineries are represented at Marche des Saveurs, and instead of standing in line in the deadly mall air at Rockland you get a brazing walk around JTM in fresh air and see lots of HAPPY faces. And there is always a tasting going on...

Now if only the french cheese importers would go on strike, he, he....

[carswell]

A union spokesperson recently encouraged Quebec consumers not to buy wine and spirits in Ontario. It's exactly the same as crossing a picket line, he said.

A Quebec government spokesperson recently mentioned that buying wine and spirits in another province and bringing it into Quebec is illegal. However, it would be impractical and not cost-effective for the government to enforce the law, she said. Instead, she encouraged Quebecers who purchased wine and spirits from the LCBO to ask for the provincial sales tax to be refunded and then to remit the tax to Revenu Québec.

Who says union and government officials don't have a sense of humour?

[maxanon]

I passed by a few SAQ's this week and the picketers look like a sorry bunch. My heart is going out to them as they must realise that their most important bargaining chip, the holidays, are gone. I think that the SAQ may be able to get concessions from the unions now.

I've been to the LCBO and one needs to know what they want because getting suggestions are not an option. Prices are slightly lower and in some cases it was faster for me to drive out there than to wait in lines.

I wonder if the SAQ will pull back some of the supermarket stock once the strike is over.

[carswell]

I passed by a few SAQ's this week and the picketers look like a sorry bunch.  My heart is going out to them as they must realise that their most important bargaining chip, the holidays, are gone.  I think that the SAQ may be able to get concessions from the unions now.

←

I feel for them too, max, and wonder how some of the employees I know and like are holding up. Christmas must have been very subdued for them and their kids this year. On the other hand, the union showed zero sympathy for us and other consumers when they deprived us of access to decent wine and all spirits at the time of year when those libations are central to our celebrations and most in demand. I also resent their telling Quebecers they shouldn't buy booze in Ontario (Why shouldn't we? We should suffer more out of solidarity?), and I really resent their harassment of people standing in line to get into a store. (For the record, I have yet to cross a picket line or bop over to Ontariariario.)

I've been to the LCBO and one needs to know what they want because getting suggestions are not an option.  Prices are slightly lower and in some cases it was faster for me to drive out there than to wait in lines.

To some extent, it depends on the store. The staff at the Vintages outlets is quite knowledgeable. Hawkesbury is another story, though in their defence they've hired a lot of people off the street just to handle the increased volume. And the culture in Ontario is different: sales of spirts are higher and of wines proportionally lower than in Quebec, so LCBO employees are not as wine-focused as their SAQ counterparts.

I wonder if the SAQ will pull back some of the supermarket stock once the strike is over.

Why would it do that? As a concession to the union?

Actually, I'd been wondering whether the strike wouldn't push the monoply to expand its line of supermarket/dep wines. However, when I advanced that theory at a holiday dinner, another guest, an HEC prof, said he thought it was unlikely. He claimed that trade agreements are the reason why dep wines are so crappy. As I understand his argument, it is only by selling generic (even the wines labelled "vin de cépage" come with no information about the grape varieties used), non-vintage wines bottled in Quebec that the SAQ can get away with controlling the show. As soon as they sell a single wine that doesn't fit that paradigm in a dep or supermarket, they'll be forced to open the flood gates and make a wide selection of imported wines available through the dep/supermarket network, failing which they'll face sanctions. And then they'd really incur the wrath of the union (indeed, of the entire union movement in Quebec), which is already paranoid about supermarket sales since it considers them a form of backdoor privatization. Can anyone here vouch for the accuracy of this prof's propos?

Edited January 6, 2005 by carswell (log)

[maxanon]

I would assume that its not the unions that are worried but the gov't themselves. If they loosen their stranglehold (a lot of people want drinkable table wine and there are some varieties in the deps) and the masses realise that the booze at the deps are okay (it would be one of those "don't ask, don't tell") then they'll be in trouble. They would lose their competitive advantage.

[Natalie MacLean]

I'm not really up on the grievances, but I've always found the SAQ guys to be at the very least helpful, and often brilliantly so. I hope this ends soon...

←

You are lucky to have good help available, strike or no strike. In Ontario, the best I can expect is to have someone re-arrange the bottles in front of me while I am pondering what to buy...

←

I've found some excellent product consultants in several LCBO stores... and living in Ottawa, where I can visit both the LCBO and SAQ stores, it sure helps given the differences in their selections, especially when I'm trying to find some new stuff to taste and recommend.

[Lesley C]

Hi Natalie, Welcome to Quebec!

Can you be more specific about the differences in style of wine in each store?

I was at a Languedoc and Rousillon wine tasting here in Montreal hosted by Sopexa. The TO journalists were flown in to the city because of the SARS situation. I'll tell you, is was FASCINATING to see the differences of opinion between the wine writers from Quebec and those from Ontario. The anglos tended to favour the oaky reds.

Do you see any differences between the Quebec and Canadian palates?

[carswell]

This just in. SAQ outlet and office employees have voted to ditch their former union, the SEMB, in favour of the CSN. The workers have gone without strike pay for two weeks now. Joining the CSN means strike pay will resume. However, full-time employees will receive only $150 a week, compared with the $200 a week they received from the SEMB; part-time employees will receive proportionally less. For background, see SAQ workers beef up forces, strike goes on (CBC Montreal) and SAQ staff ready to raise a glass to new union (the Gazette).

I wonder what this means for the future. The CSN has deep pockets. On the other hand, the employees sound increasingly desperate.

[ademello]

Just thought that I'd share my experience bringing home some wine from my visit to California over the holidays.

I meticulously prepared my list of items to declare, including 32 bottles of wine, in anticipation of the Customs Nazis at Dorval. Within this list I had broken down the wine by source (store, winery), and price. I had also separated what was to be included in my allowance (1.5 litres of wine each for me and my spouse, and what was excess.

As I passed through immigration, I was sent to customs. First shock: the agent tells me that I am only allowed to bring in 12 bottles. Anything more than that, and I need a "permit." The wine would have to impounded pending a review by the SAQ. He also warned me that the SAQ would charge me taxes based not on the price I paid, but on the price it would be if it was sold in Quebec! If I wanted to avoid the impounding of the wine, I had to pay the "flat tax". Since the SAQ was closed (it was past midnight) they would charge me the "flat tax" on the retail price I had paid.

Fast forward through a lot of hair-pulling and negotiations: The first 3L (4 bottles): no tax. For the next nine bottles, 60% tax. For the rest of the bottles, 120% in tax and excise!!!

Yes - that's right. 120%. On what amount you ask? The amount I paid PLUS the taxes in California (8.25%). That's right - tax on top of tax. Due to the grade-school level of math possessed by Revenue Canada's finest, it took them another 30 minutes to compute the damage.

As an example of how ridiculous this is, here's an example. Let's assume I paid US$50 for a bottle of wine. That's $54 with CA taxes. At the current exchange rate, that's $65 Canadian. At a tax rate of 120%, I'd have to pay $78.50 in taxes and excise which brings the price of that bottle of wine to a stunning $143.50 Canadian. At that price the wine would have serious trouble going down my throat.

I was told that if I had one of these mysterious "permits" the amount of tax I would have to pay would be reduced by about 75%. Does anyone know what these permits are?

Just a warning if anyone is thinking of bringing back any serious quantities (or price!) of wine into La Belle Province.

Honestly, my heart goes out to all the SAQ workers who have been and continue to be hit hard by this ill-conceived strike, but I can't imagine that anyone benefits from this anarchronism that continues to limit our ability to enjoy the wine that we choose to at a price that the market deems reasonable.

[moose1111]

Just be creative with the bill and you can pull this off for a lot less ;-)

[wattacetti]

This just in. SAQ outlet and office employees have voted to ditch their former union, the SEMB, in favour of the CSN.

[snip!]

I wonder what this means for the future. The CSN has deep pockets. On the other hand, the employees sound increasingly desperate.

←

I am hoping that they halt the strike rather than permit the CSN leadership to have it continue to make whatever point might be left making. I'm not sure what point there is now, since a sales decrease of only 8% combined with news about the LCBO only hardens management. Besides, $200 and now $150/week strike pay is very poor consolation for 9+ weeks of lost wages.

[wattacetti]

Just be creative with the bill and you can pull this off for a lot less ;-)

←

Unfortunately, Customs Canada isn't that thick; they actually do have some oenophiles on staff (and others with training).

The customs officials do have some leeway on how they're going to apply tax and excise, and they've been more lenient when you're up front with all of your bills ready for inspection. If you're overly creative, they also have the option of seizing the goods.

[maxanon]

I couldn't imagine paying that much. I hope those wines were a real bargain to start with. Would it have been easier to fly to upper NY/Maine then drive through one of the smaller border posts? The extra cost (~3000$) would probably be worth the hassle (and the plane tickets are less expensive).

There's something to be said about government monopolies. They get all levels to help them.

As an aside, I think the CSN was a bad choice as they need to restart negotiations real quick to make up for all the lost time. Those poor workers were hoping for a quick win and didn't realise that the new boss is a little tougher nut to crack. The SAQ has nothing to lose as they've proven that they can handle the christmas rush. The next challenge will be a long ways off.

[iroc326]

Adamelo, what were you thinking !!!!!! 32 bottles of wine !!!!!

What were the best bottles that you brought back ?

Any Frass Canyon Reserve ?

[ademello]

What was I thinking!?! I was originally going to bring back 5 cases and spent a whole day of my precious vacation deciding how to whittle it down to only 32 bottles. I brought back some zins (Turley, Carlisle, Ridge, Duckhorn), a few cabs (Regusci, Ridge, Justin), some dessert wine (Turley, Ridge, RL Buller, Bonny Doon, Roshambo), some Pinot (Martinelli, David Bruce), and some Syrah (Justin, Norman Vineyards, Rabbit Ridge) and some really sick Petite Sirahs (Turley, Rabbit Ridge). I also brought back a bottle of Zinfandel Grappa from Dry Creek Vineyards and an astoundingly velvety Zinfandel/Syrah port from Deloach. A nice mix of stuff that I can't get in Canada.

The selection and prices of Zins and Petites Sirahs in Canada is abysmal, so I try to stock up when I'm in the States. It's my bad luck that the SAQ tends not to buy the wine I enjoy, and the same goes for most of the private importers. I guess its a function of the market here in Quebec, where Zinfandel seems to be fairly unknown (even on many restaurant lists). I do find now that a few places (Rosalie comes to mind) have some more than decent Northern California/Washington State Syrahs that were reasonably priced.

Anyway, more and more these days I prefer to BYOB it so I can be sure that I'll have a wine that I enjoy. It's more of a problem finding something that's not too expensive to quaff. The best QPR zins at the SAQ are the Deloach Platinum and Ravenswood Vintner's Blend, both around $20. It kills me to pay that price when you factor in how strong our dollar is, and what that buys you in the US. Both of those wines are nice, but regularly sell in supermarkets in the US on sale for $6.99 or so, even less at Costco. Criminal!

I originally planned to bring back a containerload of Frass Canyon Reserve, but unfortunately they were fresh out of stock...

[sf&m]

I've brought in a lot of wine from California over the years, but mostly in batches of 8 bottles. (Have a suit case outfitted for the purpose.) I am finding the charges vary based on "the mood" of the officer, but mostly I have seen about 100% surcharge going through customs in Montreal.

I've never bothered to calculate it accurately (it's so depressing), but I think it's been my experience that it's cheaper to bring it through customs in Toronto.

Edited January 19, 2005 by sf&m (log)

[J_Ozzy]

Indeed, it is cheaper to come back through Ontario rather than Quebec (If you ignore the liquor across provicial lines hogwash). But only on the larger quantities. IIRC the surcharge on accompanied liquor is around 70%, for up to 6 cases of wine.

The information on provincial surcharge is out there, but is rather hard to get at. I ended up calling an obscure number in Toronto to find out (which I have since lost. erg)

[ademello]

Apparently some of the provinces used to have a flat per bottle tax of $3. Does this still exist? I was told that this was the case in Ontario, but I guess this is no longer/not the case.

[dutchrusk]

ademello, i feel your pain. the selection of zins and other american wines up here is pitiful, and ithe markups are outrageous. i find this to be part and parcel of the saq's philosophy. they soak the everyday consumer who is looking for solid, quaffable wines. the selection is often superb at the higher end (particularly french of course), but is made up mainly of plonk on the lower end--and a lot of the plonk ain't even that cheap. yes, that includes the vins de pays d'oc. it's nice to know that our tax dollars can't even get us a full line-up of reasonably priced wines (to say nothing of the tired, threadbare beer and spirits selection.) one of these days a real rain's gonna come. . .

[carswell]

I would assume that its not the unions that are worried but the gov't themselves.  If they loosen their stranglehold (a lot of people want drinkable table wine and there are some varieties in the deps) and the masses realise that the booze at the deps are okay (it would be one of those "don't ask, don't tell") then they'll be in trouble.  They would lose their competitive advantage.

←

One way or the other, the government will get its money. The state's cut, mainly in the form of taxes, is the same whether the bottle is sold at a dépanneur or an SAQ outlet or through a restaurant or a private importer. In the end, the government wouldn't be giving up much control, only hassle; even after the "privatization" of liquor sales in Alberta, the government continues to set a minimum price for the products sold. And if ever our government, post privatization, found that its alcoholic beverage income was down, it could simply raise the taxes on booze.

Also, I've heard from more than one source that the government (not the same thing as the SAQ) would like to privatize. In fact, the HEC prof I referred to above said that in 1985 the PQ government had a privatization plan in place and was ready to roll until the process hit the union roadblock. Apparently the stores were going to be cooperatives run by employees and outside investors.

[carswell]

Besides, $200 and now $150/week strike pay is very poor consolation for 9+ weeks of lost wages.

←

What's more, the CSN isn't giving them the two weeks of strike pay they lost because of the SEMB's cash crunch. I also heard that the CSN has contacted Sun Youth about providing food baskets for the strikers. Extrapolation: either they settle soon or the employees start looking for work elsewhere. That, in fact, might be an inducement for the SAQ; training lots of new staff at a time when their focus ought to be on getting the operation back on its feet would be a major hassle. Also, their managerial staff has got to be complaining at this point.

Anyway, the parties are finally back at the bargaining table. We'll have a better idea of the outlook in a few days.

[carswell]

I've brought in a lot of wine from California over the years, but mostly in batches of 8 bottles. (Have a suit case outfitted for the purpose.) I am finding the charges vary based on "the mood" of the officer, but mostly I have seen about 100% surcharge going through customs in Montreal.

I've never bothered to calculate it accurately (it's so depressing), but I think it's been my experience that it's cheaper to bring it through customs in Toronto.

←

Don't quote me on this, but IIRC the figure is slightly over 90% in Quebec and around 45% in Ontario. That applies only to the first case's worth of wine, though. Exceed the limit and you relive ademello's nightmare:

Surplus Quantities

Provided you pay the taxes and SAQ mark-up, you may bring back a further 9 litres of alcoholic beverages, which is equivalent to a case of 12 bottles (750 ml).

If you are importing up to 45 litres, you must deposit the merchandise in its entirety at Customs. You then must to contact the SAQ Customs and Excise Services to pay customs duty, mark-up and taxes. You will be able to pick up your merchandise at Customs upon presentation of the SAQ receipt.

You're right that it depends on the mood of the officer. Assuming you don't decide to join the small stampede of Quebecers gunning through smalltown Customs stations without stopping, your best strategy is to put together a problematic (from Custom's standpoint) case of bottles — obscure appellations and producers, a mix of bottle sizes (200 ml, 375 ml, 620 ml, 1000 ml) — and to arrive by car late at night. My experience is that their eyes will cross and they'll waive you through about a third of the time. Also, obscure wines are not likely to be on their price lists, so they'll have a harder time proving that the wines are worth more than you're declaring. Not that any of us would ever do that, of course.

[carswell]

Apparently some of the provinces used to have a flat per bottle tax of $3. Does this still exist? I was told that this was the case in Ontario, but I guess this is no longer/not the case.

←

I don't think it's the case in Ontario, ademello, and I don't know about elsewhere. I wonder what the taxes/fees/duties are in Alberta. It might be worth your while to post a query on the Western Canada board and plan on returning through Calgary next time.