Oven Spring

[jgarner53]

This is a question for all you bakers out there. I am learning how to make more artisan-type breads, and while they always taste great and have pretty decent crumb and sometimes have an OK crust, I never get great oven spring.

Am I overproofing?

One of my challenges is that my tiny oven can only handle one loaf (say, a boule) at a time. So if I'm baking two, the unbaked one has to sit out that much longer.

I've tried preheating a pan on the bottom of my (gas) oven and pouring in 1/2 to 1 cup of boiling water when I put in the loaf. I've also tried spraying the loaf before it goes in and spraying every couple of minutes for about the first 5 or so minutes.

I have quarry tiles on the rack (lowest) that I bake on.

What can I do to improve oven spring?

[foodie3]

you can certainly refrigerate the second loaf, or even both loaves, if that fits your schedule/oven better. as for the oven spring, i have experienced this many times, mainly with my very wet doughs. try preheating the oven to the highest temp. and keep steaming/spraying.

[mktye]

A tip I read recently here on eGullet that, IIRC, was attibuted to Paula Wolfert:

Put a second baking stone/tiles on the top rack. Then use the top element/broiler of your oven (if electric) to get the stone/tiles really hot before baking the bread *between* the two stones (i.e., place the loaves, as usual, on the bottom stone/tiles).

[Hmm, the original thread said this much more eloquently... I've spent about 10 min. searching for the tread, but cannot find it -- if anyone knows which thread and can post a link, I'd greatly appreciate it!]

I tried this for the first time last week and improved oven spring in my baguettes about 50%!

[jgarner53]

Put a second baking stone/tiles on the top rack. Then use the top element/broiler of your oven (if electric) to get the stone/tiles really hot before baking the bread *between* the two stones (i.e., place the loaves, as usual, on the bottom stone/tiles).

That sounds like a great idea. When I have an oven with a broiler element, I'll have to try it. For now (and the forseeable future), though I am using a circa 1947 O'Keefe & Merritt, where the broiler is a drawer below the oven. Generally, it's a good stove - kind of like having a vintage Packard in one's kitchen - and considering that it's over 50 years old and still working, I probably shouldn't complain.

But I do anyway.

[Lesley C]

jgarner53, for a few more ideaas you might want to ask this question to next week's Q&A guest, bread expert, James MacGuire.

[mktye]

When I have an oven with a broiler element, I'll have to try it.

If they'll fit in your oven, you might want to try the additional tiles/second stone anyway. The original post (that I still can't seem to locate) called for using the top element, but I've been a bit too chicken to do that -- I keep having visions of a violenty breaking stone.

It has worked well for me to just preheat the oven as hot as it will go with the two baking stones and then turn the oven down to the specified temperature when I put in the bread. Also, I put the top rack with the stone as close to the bottom rack as possible while leaving enough space for the bread to fully "spring" during baking.

And I totally hear you about the vintage oven. When I was first married we had one of similar age -- the pilot in the oven didn't work and I'd make my husband light it for me while I stood outside with the phone ready to call 911!

[naguere]

An old book i read on competition breads 'Manna', had the technique of using lalrge tin hoods which were placed over the loaf , i suppose this kept the moisture content up in the initial stages.

Thinking of this, i used a very large Le Crueset casserole, preheated it in the oven, dropped the loaf proved on a round tin sheet in and put the lid back on. This produced the springiest best structured freeform loaf of my life, a week latert I broke the lid so never did try it again.

[artisanbaker]

there are a few things that i can think of off the bat that affect oven spring

1. the dough's extensibility: dough "wetness", ingredient choice, strength (fermentation time), flour quality. all these factors can contribute by increasing or decreasing the dough's "stretchability."

2. the yeast activity upon loading the oven: the most active fermentation in bread making occurs in between loading the oven and the point where the yeasts' life is terminated at 140 degrees. if the yeasts are exhausted then they will not have enough energy to "finish the race."

3. some folks have noticed that a dough at 55-60 degrees has better oven spring. they believe that the yeasts have a longer "race to finish" and this translates directly to larger volume. the jury's out last, but i know that research is still going on.

4. temperature of oven: a oven that is too hot will impede proper oven spring as a crust will form and prevent expansion. a sign that this is the problem is a very dark crust.

above all make sure that the dough is properly proofed, not too much though. a little young is always good in my experience.

happy baking!

[artisanbaker]

ditto the james macguire idea. he translated one of the most influential books on french/artisan bread baking into english. great technical resource.

[ronnie_suburban]

Info from a semi well-read, hack home baker....

Oven Spring is aided in commercial ovens via steam injection. Try placing the water in the pan at the onset, when you first turn the oven on. Additionally, adding (scrap) metal to that pan will help the effect--although I'm really not sure why--but that info comes from a reliable source at the Bread Bakers Guild of America's message group.

You can also spray water into the oven right before you add your loaves, but you must do so quickly to avoid significant temperature drop in the oven. It has always been my understanding that moisture in the oven delays the crusting of the bread and allows it bloom more fully (or spring) when baking.

=R=

[eatrustic]

I agree with Artisan Baker's points, the main reasons that home bakers have problems with "spring" are : overproofing of the shaped loaf and dough that has developed a skin which acts like a girdle causing the bread to pop out in the wrong places.

I've tried the double stone technique but my oven's a bit too small and I find a good thick bottom stone that takes up most of the lower surface works fine for me.

For humidity I bought one of those pump action garden sprayers with the wand attatchment and then bought a brass wand to replace the plastic one (with a big label on saying kitchen use only!!).

This way I can open the oven just a crack, insert the wand tip and spray the sides of the oven quickly and close up before too much heat is lost. That's the problem with hand spraying, by the time you have opened the door and sprayed you've lost most of the steam and a lot of heat. I always found the container of water trick never evaporated fast enough to do the job properly and it takes up space when you're trying to do a couple of loaves. I also block the vent on the top of the stove if there is one for the first ten minutes. (Make sure when you spray to steer clear of the light bulb in the back if it is not covered or even remove it to be on the safe side - trust me I know)

[jgarner53]

Make sure when you spray to steer clear of the light bulb in the back if it is not covered or even remove it to be on the safe side - trust me I know

They have light bulbs in ovens? My poor little oven was made long before someone decided that light bulbs would be a smart thing.

But good advice from all.

Here are the results from today's baking: a classic French country loaf, made with pain fermenté. This was the second loaf, retarded in the fridge while the first one baked. Baked at 425 for 30 minutes (internal temp checked, along with "thump" test when the loaf was done)

And the crumb:

You can see that the loaf isn't very high.

I'm sort of thinking it's a bit on the overproofed side. Next round I'll cut down the time and be more fastidious with checking the rise. Sure smells good, though!

[ronnie_suburban]

(Make sure when you spray to steer clear of the light bulb in the back if it is not covered or even remove it to be on the safe side - trust me I know)

So true, so true

=R=

[McDuff]

I'm sort of thinking it's a bit on the overproofed side.

What makes you think it's overproofed? Looks good to me. Maybe could use a little more color on the top of the loaf, and if you slashed it, you didn't get much, but it has a nice irregular crumb, with lots of big aureoles, if that's the word, and it's apparent even from the somewhat dingy picture that the crumb has that shine to it that Peter Reinhart says is evidence of a fully fermented, roasted, gelatinized dough.

This thread has got me thinking about a nice loaf, especially the pix of a pugliese somewhere here, so I have a double sized batch of biga going, for baking tomorrow evening.

I like using pate fermentee and have made French boules that I couldn't believe I made. I'm always trying to recapture the rapture of those loaves. I would bake them at the country club I was working at for the dinner service and next day the chef would tell me that the sous chef ate a whole one, and that he brought one home.

I think the pugliese is another thread..sethg's blog, and will someone tell me what that is, please?

Edited May 29, 2004 by McDuff (log)

[chefdg]

Shaping is your problem. The gluten needs to taught-almost persuaded into shape gently.

[Chad]

sethg's blog, and will someone tell me what that is, please?

SethG's foodblog has some truely beautiful baking. It is just the latest in a long line of eG FoodBlogs detailing our users' cooking, dining and eating adventures.

Simply click the red links.

Chad

[McDuff]

Shaping is your problem.  The gluten needs to taught-almost persuaded into shape gently.

This is probably right.

Try rounding into a tighter ball when doing the final shaping. The loaf spread out because it was it's skin was too relaxed.

I'm also wondering if "taut" was not the word here, though "taught" almost seems to work.

Edited May 29, 2004 by McDuff (log)

[jgarner53]

haping is your problem. The gluten needs to taught-almost persuaded into shape gently.

Try rounding into a tighter ball when doing the final shaping. The loaf spread out because it was it's skin was too relaxed.

Hmm, OK. I'd thought it was pretty taut when I set it to final proof, but perhaps more stretching was in order. (For my technique, I fold a side over, rotate the dough, then continue that process until it's all folded in on itself. Then I flip the dough over and begin to pull it toward me on the counter, like I'm raking in poker chips, tucking in the dough and stretching the top. I tuck & turn (rotate) the dough until it seems taut and the top springy. There are usually blisters on top when I'm finished (which I understand are OK). Then I place the dough in my banneton, smooth side up (was taught this by a CCA instructor) -- it becomes the bottom of the loaf when baked.

Should I flip the loaf in the banneton instead, so my nice, taut top stays the top of the loaf?

Of course, the taut structure seems to relax while it's proofing, so when I turn out the dough onto my peel (aka cookie sheet with semolina on it), it spreads a bit.

I'm overloaded with loaves right now (4 boules in the freezer and one in the fridge), so it will be a few days before I can bake again. Two of us can only eat so much bread.

And I might get some more quarry tiles for the top rack of the oven, as suggested earlier. My oven doesn't have any source of top heat, though (being gas and old), so I'm not sure how much advantage it would be.

[artisanbaker]

a couple remarks-

-be careful of the final dough temperature when using pate fermentee. it is usually refridgerated dough and this can throw off the dough temp, resulting in weaker dough (flatter loaf). It should be 74 degrees minimum for a small batch.

use a thermometer!

-if you proof the loaf in a banneton with the smooth side facing up then there is no need to score the top before baking. you can obtain a very rustic looking bread that has a unique burst for each bread. The weak spots on the surface will be the seam from the underside of the shaped boule.

-shaping and steam are also great examples of things that affect oven spring.

i'm working as a bakery technition at the moment so i can appreciate the challenge!

[chefdg]

Should I flip the loaf in the banneton instead, so my nice, taut top stays the top of the loaf?

Absolutely, I have never seen shaped boule's made in the way you described; although I'm going to try it to see what possible advantage it might have. And going back to my first post; be careful when you are pulling the dough, remember it is alive. Break the shaping into three stages with a five-ten minute rest/bench between each so you don't have those blisters on top (they are torn gluten which cannot trap the air/gas when it expands in the oven). I was told the dough should be "as smooth as a baby's bottom". Let me know how that works for you.

-oh yeah, and pardon the pun in my first post (taught vs taut), I had a couple of drinks and was feeling a little froggy.

[McDuff]

This is the pugliese, made with all bread flour and no potato, from The Bread Baker's Apprentice. I was real casual about shaping it, just gave it another three fold and then flipped it over to proof. The loaf on the left has a less brown bottom than top and that's where the thing just lifted right up off the pizza stone. My amibition is to make a bread that look's just like an Iggy's Francese, for those of you in eastern ma, but this, good as it was, doesn't come close to the hole size they get.

[plunk]

To get more oven spring in my breads, I put a baking stone on the bottom rack of the oven plus a small 6" cast iron frying pan with several grill brikettes and preheat for about 45 mins to an hour. The shaped loaves are underproofed by about 25% and just before I put my loaves in, I boil about 1/2 cup of water in the microwave. The loaves get slashed and are slid onto the baking stone, then the water is very quickly poured into the cast iron pan and the oven door is immediately closed. Viola, a lot of instant steam and great oven spring. I got this tip from the King Arthur Flour message boards.

The problem with this method is that if you use too much water, it can splash onto the baking stone and crack it. If you want to try this method, err on the side of less water, or use an old ceramic tile that you don't care about.

[mktye]

For other ideas on getting steam into a home oven, the folks over a rec.foods.sourdough discuss various methods at length. Here is a link to one gentleman's method of introducing steam using a pressure cooker. I've not tried it, but it looks rather intriguing.

For other threads on this subject (and there are quite a few), you can search the group for "steam" here.

And I might get some more quarry tiles for the top rack of the oven, as suggested earlier. My oven doesn't have any source of top heat, though (being gas and old), so I'm not sure how much advantage it would be.

According to my mechanical engineer husband, the stone/tiles (top or bottom) help because they are an additional source of thermal mass. Typical home ovens are constructed with the walls consisting mainly of reflective and insulating materials so the outside of the oven does not get hot (i.e., most of the heat stays only in the oven compartment and is not held in the walls). But once the oven door is opened, heat escapes and the heating element has to run to bring the oven back up to temperature. If there are prehated stones/tiles in the oven, they will radiate heat into the oven space much more quickly and evenly than the heating element. So no matter where your source of original heat (top or bottom elements), once the stones/tiles are up to temperature (I usually give it an hour), they will radiate heat onto your bread.

And, jgarner53, your bread already looks very nice! Great holes!

[jgarner53]

And, jgarner53, your bread already looks very nice! Great holes!

Thanks. I feel like once I get this oven spring thing figured out - what will work best in my particular oven - then I'll really be off to the races. There's so much good bread out there waiting to be baked!

And, for me, I really feel like bread baking is like some kind of magic, even knowing the science behind it. There's some kind of connection to thousands of years of people making this, there's a connection to the dough. I'm always amazed at the change from a shaggy mess to this smooth, elastic ball, watching it change under my hands as I knead. There's something really magical about it to me -- I'm not very eloquent at putting it into words, but since you're all bakers at some level or another, I figure you probably understand.

How many science experiments do you get to eat, after all?

[Enzian]

I've been wrestling with a different problem, but I've not had a problem with ovenspring.

I use the steam "trick". I place a shallow pan on the bottom rack (actually, the very bottom; I have a gas oven) filled with boiling water 5 minutes before I put the first loaf in. You want a full oven of steam in there. The idea is that the steam will keep the top moist and prevent a crust from forming too rapidly, therefore constricting the loaf from rising.

Also, shaping and slashing. A taut loaf shows less surface area, and therefore, more mass beneath it. Anything jagged would crust over too fast and not uniformly.

Slashing is important, too. The crust may not be hard-set, thanks to the steam, but it's still almost like a freezer burnt ice cream pellicle; rubbery but inelastic. Slashes act as pleats that further allow for expansion. For a boule, I like 5 slashes that make it look like a sand dollar. For baguettes, I like a few (3-5, depending on size) bias slashes.