An interface between the two languages

[torakris]

Yesterday as my family was having lunch at Yoshinoya (my first time there in almost 14 years!), the man a couple chairs away (the restuarant is set up as one big sort of s shaped counter) stood and announced "gochisousama" as the way of letting the waiter know he was ready to pay his check. I have never really noticed anyone ever do that before in this kind of restaurant, of course I also don't normally frequent those kind of restaurants....

I didn't notice any of the other customers do it either though and I would probably never use it in that kind of situation, so it really just depends on the person.

I always do that!

So how do you usually ask for your check in this type of place?

they usually give the check with the meal, so I just walk over to the register...

[Hiroyuki]

Hiroyuki-san:

is there a way, in spoken Japanese, to know when to 'drop' the last vowel, and when to pronounce it?

i ask this question as a beginner Japanese student.

I'm not sure, but are you talking about them?

1) ii vs. single long i vowel (let me represent it i-)

2) ei vs. single long e vowel (e-)

3) ou vs. single long o vowel (o-)

For example,

1) The Japanese word for pretty is written as kawaii かわいい, but pronounced kawai-.

2) The word for clock is written as tokei とけい, but pronounced toke-.

3) The word for king is written as oh おう, but pronounced o-.

[Hiroyuki]

I always do that!

So how do you usually ask for your check in this type of place?

I could say that too, but I usually say,

Suimasen (Execuse me).

or

Suimasen, o-kanjo. (Execuse me, check, please).

Again, that really depends on the person, I think.

[gus_tatory]

Hiroyuki-san:

is there a way, in spoken Japanese, to know when to 'drop' the last vowel, and when to pronounce it?

i ask this question as a beginner Japanese student.

I'm not sure, but are you talking about them?

1) ii vs. single long i vowel (let me represent it i-)

2) ei vs. single long e vowel (e-)

3) ou vs. single long o vowel (o-)

For example,

1) The Japanese word for pretty is written as kawaii かわいい, but pronounced kawai-.

2) The word for clock is written as tokei とけい, but pronounced toke-.

3) The word for king is written as oh おう, but pronounced o-.

thanks Hiroyuki--

those are helpful, and are good examples. to my ear, i can barely hear the last U in "gozaimasu". same thing with "desu"--it sounds like "des-".

i guess the question is: are vowels at the end of words/sentences always dropped? if not, when are they kept?

thanks in advance,

gus

[torakris]

Gus,

something like that you just pick up after a while, in general I would say you use the last vowel in more formal situations and drop it when speaking more casually.

[Hiroyuki]

are vowels at the end of words/sentences always dropped? if not, when are they kept?

I think that masu ます and desu です are the ONLY words in which such dropping usually occurs. As you point out, we usually say mas and des rather than masu and desu. This is simply because they are easier to pronounce, I think.

You said you were a beginner Japanese student, so I don't think you need any more information at this point, but when I have more time, I'd like to talk about some Japanese people who say masu and desu. My talk will be based on the following two sites:

http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/announcer/syunjyu/01.htm

http://w2.avis.ne.jp/~m-it-n/mori-7.htm

Edited June 22, 2004 by Hiroyuki (log)

[gus_tatory]

Gus,

something like that you just pick up after a while, in general I would say you use the last vowel in more formal situations and drop it when speaking more casually.

thanks torakris and Hiroyuki--

i am listening to Japanese internet radio at NHK online, and just bought a Teach Yourself Japanese course yesterday with two huge books and three CDs.

thanks for your help.

[Sleepy_Dragon]

Uwajimaya in Seattle occasionally flies in tenmusu chefs to make tenmusu for sale to the public for a few glorious days. In trying to communicate with them in my mangled stomped-on Japanese how much I enjoyed them, I did notice they dropped the "u" at the end of tenmusu, so perhaps it's not limited to verbs and the desu copula.

My conversation partners also tend to drop it, but will pronounce it if I ask them to repeat a word I'm trying to learn.

Also hard to catch in conversation at times is when a vowel gets lengthened. In which case I inwardly hope and pray for enough context to tell me what's what.

Pat

[Pompollo]

Quote (gus_tatory Posted on Jun 21 2004, 09:04 AM )

i guess the question is: are vowels at the end of words/sentences always dropped? if not, when are they kept?

As a basic rule, it is safe to say that the "u" sound is dropped when preceded by an "s", and that is why people do say "des" for "desu", "mas" for "masu", and skiyaki for "sukiyaki".

But, people do NOT drop the final "u" in verbs, as the verb to "eat" [taberu] is said "ta be roo" , and the verb "go" is "iku" that is definitely pronounced "ee koo" and to die "shinu" is said exactly like "she knew".

In fact, when people exagerate and do pronounce the "u" in "desu" or "masu" at the end of words, they are usually trying to emphasize something in a joking manner, resembling children who sometimes vocalize the "u".

[smallworld]

Uwajimaya in Seattle occasionally flies in tenmusu chefs to make tenmusu for sale to the public for a few glorious days. In trying to communicate with them in my mangled stomped-on Japanese how much I enjoyed them, I did notice they dropped the "u" at the end of tenmusu, so perhaps it's not limited to verbs and the desu copula.

You're right, it's not. When a word, any word, ends in the syllable 'su', the final vowel tends to get dropped, especially in casual speech. I think the reason Hiroyuki said it was only 'masu' and 'desu' that get their final vowels dropped was because those verbs are by far the most common words that end in 'su'.

Actually, I think the final u is never really dropped, it's just said really quietly. Or said silently under the breath- one's tongue and mouth are forming the u, there's just no sound coming out.

[Hiroyuki]

Hm, maybe you guys know more about this subject than I do. I have to confess I have never stopped to think about this before.

In this post, let me explain another aspect of desu and masu--how to emphasize them.

In the description that follows, a long vowel is represented by a vowel followed by a hyphen (-); for example, a- denotes a long 'a' vowel.

In emphasizing, we usually say de-su for desu and ma-su for masu, not desu- or masu-. Thus, we usually say:

いただきまーす Itadakima-su

げんきでーす Genki de-su (I'm fine)

The same goes for sai and sen:

ごめんなさーい Gomen'nasa-i (sorry)

すいませーん Suimase-n (sorry)

Compare:

ごちそうさまでしたー Gochisousamadeshita-

いただきましたー Itadakimashita- (I received)

げんきでしたー Genki deshita- (I was fine)

[smallworld]

Yesterday as my family was having lunch at Yoshinoya (my first time there in almost 14 years!), the man a couple chairs away (the restuarant is set up as one big sort of s shaped counter) stood and announced "gochisousama" as the way of letting the waiter know he was ready to pay his check. I have never really noticed anyone ever do that before in this kind of restaurant, of course I also don't normally frequent those kind of restaurants....

I didn't notice any of the other customers do it either though and I would probably never use it in that kind of situation, so it really just depends on the person.

I always do that!

So how do you usually ask for your check in this type of place?

they usually give the check with the meal, so I just walk over to the register...

Well, you must eat at far classier places than I do!

A great many fast-food or lower-end type places don't leave the bill at the table- not just Yoshinoya but ramen shops, kaiten-zushi, curry rice shops and the like. Then again, really high-end places don't leave the check at the table either. At either type of place you need to let someone know you're ready to pay, and while "Oaiso/Okanjo onegai shimasu" is fine for the fancy places, it seems a little polite for ramen.

So "Gochisou-sama" seems to work.

I also use gochisou-sama/gochisou-sama deshita to thank the staff or cook if they have been extra-nice or the food was really good.

I'm spending the weekend in Osaka, where I'll be using the Osaka-ben version: "Gochisou-san". That's about all I can speak as far as Osaka-ben goes, but saying this in a restaurant never fails to blow peoples' socks off. Last visit the staff at a rather scary 'hormone-yaki' shop in Shinsekai were so impressed they gave me a free cellphone strap.

Who knows what I'll get this time...

[tanabutler]

At a farm dinner last night, we were served smoked black cod, which is also called Japanese butterfish. What do the Japanese call it?

[melonpan]

regarding まんてん畑 (a bottled drink put out by suntory)

is this pronounced "mantenten"?

thank you!

[Hiroyuki]

regarding  まんてん畑 (a bottled drink put out by suntory)

is this pronounced "mantenten"?

thank you!

Manten batake.

畑 is pronounced hatake (or hata or pata in some cases), meaning field, patch, or plantation, but is pronounced batake when preceded by certain words, as in

茶/麦/苺畑 cha/mugi/ichigo (tea/barley/strawberry) batake.

[Hiroyuki]

At a farm dinner last night, we were served smoked black cod, which is also called Japanese butterfish. What do the Japanese call it?

Fish names are confusing, but the following site cleared up some of my confusion:

http://www.susanscott.net/OceanWatch2003/feb28-03.html

So, the answer is:

Black cod, or sablefish, are called gin dara (lit. silver cod) in Japanese.

Japanese butterfish, which are NOT black cod, are called ibodai or ebodai. ('Ibo' means 'wart', and some people hate to call them ibodai.)

Another confusion here. Mana gatsuo are also called butterfish:

http://www.coara.or.jp/~sueyoshi/data01/managatuo.html

[Hiroyuki]

4.  A likely story.  Women are changing rapidly.  Another word that women hesitate to use is kuu 食う (to eat).  Women usually use taberu 食べる instead.  My sister has a strong aversion to kuu; whenever I say kuu, she says "Stop it!" 止めて.

I meant 'a probable story'. I didn't know that the expression 'A likely story' has the opposite meaning.

[Pan]

It has the opposite meaning only because it's usually used sarcastically (really, ironically). However, that doesn't mean it can't be used literally, and I understood your meaning.

[jrufusj]

I always do that!

So how do you usually ask for your check in this type of place?

they usually give the check with the meal, so I just walk over to the register...

Well, you must eat at far classier places than I do!

If you eat at the classiest places of all , you don't have to worry about any of this...

Just put your money in the ticket machine, grunt out your order, then eat and leave as quickly as possible so you won't get fussed at for lingering and taking up counter space!!

Jim

[nuppe]

I guess that I ask to much, and I bump into this forum in a rather stressful phase. I have a book deadline this week and need a couple of capelin(shishamo) and mackerel(saba) recipes. Capelin/smelt is the biggest challenge, but I have received a couple of completely new ones in japanese. I've had them translated, but now I realise that the translation isn't sufficient. So anynone ready for a challenge...

One or two will be enough, capelin recipes don't seem to be common; these are made for the future.

The crisis isn't that severe in the mackerel division, but a few of the recipes linked, seem fun.(like the pizza if it's the japanese type) Maybe someone else thinks the same and will contribute to the spread of this.

I think I will find a way somehow, but I'll just give this a try.

Nuppe

1) Sesame Mackerel

http://www.seafoodfromnorway.jp/recipe/rec...?strRecipeId=40

2) Japanese style pizza with Mackerel

http://www.seafoodfromnorway.jp/recipe/rec...?strRecipeId=47

3) Mackerel rice rolls

http://www.seafoodfromnorway.jp/recipe/rec...?strRecipeId=54

4) Mackerel with carry paste

http://www.seafoodfromnorway.jp/recipe/rec...?strRecipeId=43

5) Spicy Mackerel Pasta

http://www.seafoodfromnorway.jp/recipe/rec...?strRecipeId=52

6) Sweet and Sour Mackerel

http://www.seafoodfromnorway.jp/recipe/rec...?strRecipeId=51

7) Mackerel Fry with Miso and mayonnaise

1) Capein Marine with Vegetables

http://www.seafoodfromnorway.jp/recipe/rec...?strRecipeId=59

2) Capelin Marine

http://www.seafoodfromnorway.jp/recipe/rec...?strRecipeId=60

3) Capelin Fry

http://www.seafoodfromnorway.jp/recipe/rec...?strRecipeId=61

[Hiroyuki]

You really are asking too much!

Anyway, the following is a quick translation of

1) Capein Marine with Vegetables

http://www.seafoodfromnorway.jp/recipe/rec...?strRecipeId=59

Ingredients (four servings)

8 to 10 Norwegian capelins

1/2 onion

1/2 pack aona (green vegetable)

2 sliced radishes

3 tbsp white wine vinegar

1/3 small tbsp (i.e., 5/3 cc) salt

Pinch of pepper

1/2 tbsp sugar

Juice from 1/2 lemon

Lemon slices (cut into slices and then into quarters), as many as you please

6 tbsp salad oil

Adequate amount of flour

How to make:

1) Mix white wine vinegar, salt, sugar, lemon juice, and salad oil in a bowl, and add soup.

2) Slice onion, soak in water, drain.

3) Boil aona (green vetetable), drain, and cut to lengths of 2 to 3 cm.

4) Lightly flour capelins and deep-fry until crispy.

5) Put 1), 2), and 4) in a vat, sprinkle radish and lemon slices, and let it cool.

6) Serve in a dish and garnish with 3).

NOTE: I don't know what the 'soup' is in step 1)!

Edit to add: Maybe 'add soup' is a simple mistake and should be deleted. I can never be sure, though.

Edited July 27, 2004 by Hiroyuki (log)

[nuppe]

Yes, you're quick! Thank you! Is it possible to say more about the aona vegetable? If it's genuine japanese; are there other vegetables which are rather similar(like for instance broccoli?)

[Hiroyuki]

How about spinach? As the name implies, aona refers to any type of green vegetable, like spinach, qing-geng-cai (Chinese green vegetable), komatsuna

Komatsuna:

http://www.kikkoman.co.jp/homecook/series/komatsuna01.html

Good luck!

Any more requests?

[nuppe]

Smart! Now I think I can handle it!

Thanks again!

[torakris]

first of all welcome to egullet and the Japan board!

I must agree with Hiroyuki here that your request is a little too much to ask, if you hae questions about specific words or techniques I am sure you will find a lot more people willing to help. Unfortunately since I am on on a omputer with no Japanese reading or writing ability, I can't help much.

If you have any more specific requests let us know....