Restaurant Table Manners

[NulloModo]

IS there something inherently wrong with just keeping the fork in the right hand and the knife in the left hand?

[Jensen]

Not if you're left-handed

My mother-in-law is a leftie and my husband keeps his fork in his right hand and his knife in his left. I can't complain about it; my mum is also a leftie so I hang my clothes up "backwards" (according to Wayde).

The "manners" part of it comes into play when you transfer your fork to your other hand before moving it to your mouth. So,

* fork in left/knife in right

* cut food

* put knife down

* transfer fork to right hand

* eat

[NulloModo]

How odd... I am right handed, but have always simply cut with my left, eaten with my right, and not switched hands. I didn't know if I was approaching bad manners with that somehow.

[Mabelline]

OKAY, now I'm really confused. Because if a person came from a culture with the left hand being the offhand, they would naturally use both tools in their right.

John, thanks for that...I KNEW courtesans and king or church would come up in that!

[foodie52]

OK: as long as we are talking about manners, someone please clarify this for me.

My parents are in Switzerland. They are in their 70's. I live in the USA. My mother was TOTALLY humiliated when we went to a restaurant with her in Luzern and I asked for my entree to be wrapped up to take home with me...it was way more than I could eat. She told us ( way before I asked to have it wrapped up ) that NOBODY asks for that in Europe! That it is the epitome of uncouth to do that. But I couldn't see that food going to waste, especially with the exchange being as crappy as it is....the meal cost a fortune and it was only a bistro.

So I asked for the leftovers to be wrapped up. The waiter didn't blink an eye. And they obviously had the materials in the kitchen to do it, because it came in foil, in a paper bag.

So ....is it my mother? Or is it totally CRASS in Europe to take your leftovers home with you?

[tommy]

Cannot anyone end my quest of the true meaning of the upside-down fork? I mean to me it's as different as an upside-down spoon or knife. So why???????

it works. give it a shot, and then judge. yes?

[Mabelline]

I'll go with that. I will eat all this week with a downer fork, and probably have to report my cleaning bill.

[Varmint]

Kathi Purvis of the Charlotte Observer wrote an article earlier this week about napkin etiquette (click for the story).

At a business dinner, said one book, leave the napkin on the table while you discuss business. Why? Temptation that you'll use it as a weapon? Are deals being blown by aggressive unfurling? Maybe napkin-flapping would make a good hand gesture for Donald Trump's next season.

[Mistinguett]

This is one thing that always baffled me: why sip from the side given the shape of the spoon?

Instead, fill a soup spoon about 75% with soup, bring it up to your mouth, and sip it from the side with as little slurping as possible.

[bleudauvergne]

Some faddish people lay their forks tines down on the table, so that people can see the hallmark on the back to show it is real silver. This is as vulgar as inspecting the hallmark, or even the makers mark on the bottom of the plates.  Even more vulgar are those who use hallmark the face or bowl so that the hallmark is visible when in use or laid the correct way. I suppose you can have cutlery hallmarked on the wrong side and then laid upside down, but that is just perverse.

When I learned to set a French table, I was instructed to put the tines down, not because when you do this that it shows the hallmark, but because when you do this, it hides the hallmark.

Edited April 30, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[emmapeel]

I'm curious about what I've seen lately when people are eating these days. I eat "American Style" using the "Zig-Zag" method. I transfer the fork to my right hand after I have cut the food. Call me a peasant, I don't care. It's acceptable in the states. I have dined with many Europeans who eat with the tines of the fork down, and never transfer utensils from hand to hand. Both styles are fine with me. What is not fine, and I see often, (even in fine dining establishments) is holding the fork vertically, with a fist in the right hand (tines up)! It concerns me because it is a common sight, and makes me wonder if this style is becoming acceptable. Another is chewing with the mouth open. In a movie theatre, it is so disconcerting, I'll move my seat.

Recently, I treated an old high school friend and her son to dinner at a steakhouse (Keens) and her son's (age 15) table manners were lacking. I don't remember learning how to use utensils, so it must have been before 4 years of age. The mother ate American style and I wondered, if she knows how to wield a knife and fork, why doesn't her son? Then I began to wonder if younger people only eat fast food and rarely use utensils. If this is the case, then I'll get used to it. (And I'll keep remembering I didn't use chopsticks until I was 22.)

Edited May 9, 2005 by emmapeel (log)

[*Deborah*]

I attribute a lot of poor utensil-holding in North America to commercials for breakfast cereal where the kid is holding the spoon in a fist...remember Mikey? he'd eat anything, and eat it like a little barbarian.

[Pan]

For the record, "Mikey" hated everything, and that's why the slogan "Mikey likes it!" was presumably effective (or at least memorable) in that ad. Yet I don't remember what precisely was being advertised...

(Don't remind me here; it's no doubt mentioned in the favorite food slogans and ads thread.)

[*Deborah*]

For the record, "Mikey" hated everything, and that's why the slogan "Mikey likes it!" was presumably effective (or at least memorable) in that ad. Yet I don't remember what precisely was being advertised...

(Don't remind me here; it's no doubt mentioned in the favorite food slogans and ads thread.)

←

Oh, of course! silly me.

I do remember the product, although I've never eaten it.

[touaregsand]

For the record, "Mikey" hated everything, and that's why the slogan "Mikey likes it!" was presumably effective (or at least memorable) in that ad. Yet I don't remember what precisely was being advertised...

(Don't remind me here; it's no doubt mentioned in the favorite food slogans and ads thread.)

←

Life cereal.

Didn't Mikey die because he drank coke while eating that rock candy that 'exploded' in your mouth. The Urban legend theory was that the candy and coke caused his stomach to explode.

[greenwich st]

Ooh, ouch. Another child actor sacrified to urban legend.

As for Continental table manners, French people are supposed to have both hands at or above table-level at all times. My French husband can't enlighten me as to why -- we joke that this has something to do with ensuring an atmosphere of wholesomeness at the dinner table, but does anyone have a real explanation?

[Pan]

Life cereal.

Didn't Mikey die because he drank coke while eating that rock candy that 'exploded' in your mouth. The Urban legend theory was that the candy and coke caused his stomach to explode. 

←

We may want to have further discussions on this in some other thread, but I just thought I'd let you know that that urban legend is definitely false.

[Behemoth]

Why do youall eat with the fork upside-down? It just seems weird to me because of the configuration of the fork. I mean does it go back in tradition (like somebody almost poked some king's mistress' eye out with the fork tines up) or to make the meal go slower? I have had 2 English, and one Zanzibar-Colonial aunts and they all ate like that...

←

Why is it weird? A fork has tines, because it is used to spear food. Held the right way, it is shaped to allow easy application of pressure on whatever you're trying to spear. I always found it weird that Americans use it like some sort of shovel.

Actually, I rarely used to pay attention to this stuff. But lately I've noticed how much trouble people seem to have with their silverware. I watched one otherwise worldly guy desperately try to attack a piece of chicken with just a fork, then failing that, clutched the fork in his fist dead vertical, to hold the piece of meat down while sawing at it with the knife. The other thing that I find amusing is when people cut up their entire steak into little pieces lay down the fork and have at it with the fork-shovel method. I mean, how long has it been since mommy cut it up for you like that?

Yeah, I know I've just offended a bunch of people. But come on.

[emmapeel]

Yeah, I know I've just offended a bunch of people.  But come on.

←

No way, you haven't offended me. I understand the tines down, but tell me, how do you eat rice? You can't spear it, and you don't use a spoon, right?

Edited May 8, 2005 by emmapeel (log)

[touaregsand]

Ooh, ouch.  Another child actor sacrified to urban legend.

As for Continental table manners, French people are supposed to have both hands at or above table-level at all times.  My French husband can't enlighten me as to why -- we joke that this has something to do with ensuring an atmosphere of wholesomeness at the dinner table, but does anyone have a real explanation?

←

My husband can't explain this to me either. And it really upset him when we first met that I didn't keep my hands at or above table level. It took him about 3-4 years to stop commenting on it. It's not like I took his remarks lightly. I'm more the type to say "they're my fookin hands, okay??!!!" Especially after hearing it 100 TIMES.

As far as my idea of table manners goes... Mostly I love to see people enjoying eating without worrying about etiquette so much. When you talk about etiquette especially on an International board things can easily degenerate into a food fight. I firmly, absolutely believe that a refined person in one culture will do things that make him/her seem like an ape in another culture. (Note the chopsticks thread, like someone in Albania is gonna tell me what good manners are at an Asian table, puhleeze.)

I can give numerous examples from my family where ideas contradictory ideas about good manners and etiquette come from 4 different continents.

When I'm eating Western/European (white people) food I usually hold my fork and knife the French way, because that is more comfortable for me. But I have noticed that when I am dining with Americans, sometimes it is percieved (well people actually comment on it) that it's the 'fancier' way. And you know in America we're all the same. So I switch to eating the American way so that my fellow diners don't feel uncomfortable. I think it's all silly. But I have good manners. Usually.

I've also noticed that when we have dinner guests there is almost always hesitation on the part of diners. There is some anxiety about having to display "French table" manners. Non, non. In our home guests eat the way they want.

By the way I always leave a bite of food on the plate. It's a pathological habit I've had since childhood. My husband always inspects my plates to see what I've eaten. He will usually finish it. He HATES this little habit I have.

[Behemoth]

Yeah, I know I've just offended a bunch of people.  But come on.

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No way, you haven't offended me. I understand the tines down, but tell me, how do you eat rice? You can't spear it, and you don't use a spoon, right?

←

Okay, for loose stuff you do use it like a shovel I guess (don't see how else you could do it) using the knife as a pusher. I probably do that with peas as well. But I really get a kick out of watching people try to get the rice/peas on the fork without using a knife.

[touaregsand]

A fork for ice cream has to be the stupidest joke. Someone can give the reasons for it, which I sort of remember right now.

[Behemoth]

By the way, having grown up inthe middle east, if there is pita bread on the table I'm going at it with my hands, no question. I'm getting my prissy euro-husband trained in that capacity too. My Lebanese cousins used to make fun of me for "eating like a rabbit", i.e. with my mouth closed, but there I draw the line. They can wait for me to swallow before answering (plus it gives me time to think, on those rare occasions I remember to do so.)

Edited May 8, 2005 by Behemoth (log)

[touaregsand]

Yeah, I know I've just offended a bunch of people.  But come on.

←

No way, you haven't offended me. I understand the tines down, but tell me, how do you eat rice? You can't spear it, and you don't use a spoon, right?

←

Okay, for loose stuff you do use it like a shovel I guess (don't see how else you could do it) using the knife as a pusher. I probably do that with peas as well. But I really get a kick out of watching people try to get the rice/peas on the fork without using a knife.

←

Depends on the type of rice. If it's the steamed rice that Koreans eat, we eat with a spoon. Apparently this is not done in China or Japan though.

The thing about French table manners is that the French don't eat much rice.

They use a fork for couscous which makes North Africans laugh hysterically.

[emmapeel]

... I firmly, absolutely believe that a refined person in one culture will do things that make him/her seem like an ape in another culture. (Note the chopsticks thread, like someone in Albania is gonna tell me what good manners are at an Asian table, puhleeze.)

←

Very good point touaregsand, and I keep that in mind when dining with people from other cultures. Recently, I dined with a South Asian man who never used utensils, and his struggle to use them was appreciated, as much as my very bad french is appreciated in France. Since we were eating Indian food, I suggested he show me the proper way to eat with my hands, and I enjoyed it very much.