What I'd do for a decent pub

[yvonne johnson]

Tommy suggested on the UK board that there might be a decent pub/bar in town.  Well, I've yet to find it. Please advise.

Here's where I've tried:

Temple Bar, 330 Lafayette (b/w Bleecker & E houston). This comes close to a pub, but, despite the near pitch darkness it's starting to look a little worn. At the same time, it's a bit too sedate. You don't get the feeling you can chat to your neighbor as one can in a British pub.

Cedar Tavern: University Pl (b/w 11 & 12). Pub-y in many respects, lovely old wooden bar, but I never feel comfortable here, upstairs or down. What is it? Those fake art deco lights? Leaves me cold.

McSorley's: Maybe I should give it another go. Smelled of vomit the last time I was there.

Corner Bistro: Close to my idea of a pub. Friendly, dowdy, rough and ready.

Un-named bar on Greenwich Ave (around 10th). A dive. I like it.

DBA? on 1st. Decent selction of beers. Loud. It has a hip factor that exceeds its merits.

Chumley's, Pete's and Old Town : Having jogged my memory, I don't know why I haven't gone more.

White Horse: so, so

I like gay bars: Splash, Crowbar (or is it sledgehammer) in Chelsea

Shark Bar, Amsterdam Ave. This used to be a terrific place, but the latest incarnation was horrid.

Oh, the ones gone (or at least when I last looked): Village Idiot and Downtown Beruit.

Hotel bars:

I quite like the Oak Bar at the Plaza (not to be confused with the Oak ROOM. The Oak Room is the restaurant of little prestige at the Plaza)

Mark Hotel: Cozy little bar, but the drinks are weak.

Carlyle: smokey, dark, and dull.

Ditto: Regency

Brooklyn: Juniors. Folk rave about the cheesecake. Rightly so, but the bar serves a very mean bloody mary. Rocket fuel.

If this was about UK pubs the beer would be important. Maybe that's what's missing. A decent pint.

[Wilfrid]

A subject after my own heart, Yvonne.  I won´t list the bars I´ve tried in New York, or we´ll be up to fourteen pages before you know it.

General comment:  My biggest beef when I first started looking for good pubs here was the lighting.  Generally there isn´t any.  It may be that Americans are historically ashamed of drinking!  Sure, there are dark pubs in Britain, but also many which either have decent sized windows or don´t mind paying the electricity bill. The darkness of many bars makes it hard to just drop in, pick up a newspaper, or read a few pages of a book over a quiet drink.  There´s really not much to do except hunker down over your glass and start chugging.  Loud music doesn´t help the relaxing and socialising, but pubs in Britain are not innocent there either.  Also, why do men have to shout when they´re in bars?  I understand there need to be bars for students, but there are too many bars full of men who haven´t been students for years, re-living their college days at full volume.

Specifics:

There are some old New York bars which have an ambience similar to a pub, but you have clearly tried the best of them.  The Old Town Bar is at least long enough to give you a fighting chance of getting a bar-stool.  The only way to approach McSorley´s is to go at off-peak hours, like morning or mid-afternoon; it is a bar of profound interest (indeed with a funny smell) but no longer useable most of the time because of the crowds.  If I ran it, I would ban everyone under my age!

Cedar Tavern - zero atmosphere I agree - but have you tried another Village bar with tenuous and indirect connections to its Bohemian past?  For years it was called the Lion´s Head, and it´s a walk-down on Christopher Place.  Last time I looked, it had become the Monkey´s Paw - maybe the name has changed again - but it wasn´t a lot different inside.

DBA is about the best I have seen, both for beer and for a wide range of spirits - but it´s basically just another crowded bar apart from that.  For an interesting choice of beers, try The Room on Sullivan (or is it Thompson?).  Not a pub - it´s a small bar with dark lounge attached, but the beer/cider list is good.  They don´t have a spirit license.

I would never suggest anyone eat in Sardi´s, but there are two bars with some quirky charm, the "snug" as we Brits would call it, downstairs and to the left as you enter, and a larger bar upstairs.  Most of the barmen have been working there for decades and have a good knowledge of theater trivia.  Try not to go just before or after curtain time.  There are some very interesting relics of Broadway to be found drinking there:  also, huge bowls of free salted peanuts.

Finally, the best bar in Manhattan, and a place I often think of as home:  Jimmy´s Corner on 44th between 6th and 7th.  No frills.  Bar narrower than a subway car leading to a few tables at the back.  Boxing photos everywhere.  Last year´s Christmas decorations.  Big-hearted owners and sweet staff.  Smoky and beery.  Closest I´ve thing I´ve found to the Coach and Horses in Soho, London - except the people running it don´t hate you.

I hope we get some input from native New Yorkers.

[tommy]

if i may be so bold, the reason that NYC bars suck so hard is, ready, hold on to your hats:  people are a-holes.  that's right.  staff and patrons alike.  god forbid you try to strike up a conversation with a cooler-than-thou barman, or a i'm-too-hot-to-be-talking-to-you patron.  forget about it.  

so really, it's not the pub so much as the tossers inside.  i'd put good money on the fact that if wilfrid, yvonne, me, our friends, and any number of others here on egullet, took over a bar in NYC for a few hours, it would be the best bar in the country.

nuff said.

[=Mark]

PJ Clarkes on 55th and 3rd.  Was a nice place with Guinness and Pilsner Urquell on tap.  Ownership has passed to the son of the former owner, and it aparrently alienating the help.  Bartenders Dennis and Fred who we have been annoying for over 20 years have moved on.

<CENTER>Stevens Brothers assume the position at PJ Clarkes<BR>

</CENTER>

McSorelys is only really good in the early afternoon on weekdays, especially in the winter when the coal stove is lit and the sun shines in and gives the bar a nice glow.  Evenings and Weekends the Old House has become a veritable frat house of rowdy drunken 20 somethings shouting and chundering on each other.

Fanelli's in the gallery district is still quite user friendly and probably the easiest of these 3 places to join in conversation with the locals.

[Ruby]

Yvonne, here's some in Manhattan to wet your whistle. I also found some really nice Irish pubs in Bay Ridge but don't remember their names. They were all on Third Avenue if you're ever in that area. Bay Ridge is a great neighborhood to explore.

Half King, 505 W. 23 St. (delish burgers)

Smithfield, 115 Essex St.

Toad Hall, 57 Grand St.

Pete's Tavern, 129 E. 18 St.

Viceroy (nice front bar-mostly a restaurant) 18th St. & 8th Ave.

Telephone Bar & Grill, 149 2nd Ave.

Waterfront Ale House, 30th St. & 2nd Ave. (great selection of draft beers + terrific burgers).

Cheers and Happy Days :)

[Wilfrid]

Quote: from tommy on 1:59 pm on Feb. 7, 2002

 i'd put good money on the fact that if wilfrid, yvonne, me, our friends, and any number of others here on egullet, took over a bar in NYC for a few hours, it would be the best bar in the country.

Sounds like a plan!

[jhlurie]

Quote: from markstevens on 2:10 pm on Feb. 7, 2002

PJ Clarkes on 55th and 3rd.

Mark,

I work in that big black building behind Clarke's, and although I don't frequent the place, I can tell you from walking past it three or four times every day that it is almost always crowded (at least at those same "peak" times that McSoreley's is).

As far as McSoreley's itself goes, I've still found it pleasant during off-peak hours.  It can't substitute for a pub (the definition of that for this argument being a place you can casually go to after work on any given night), but at specially planned times it can still be a positive experience.

[tommy]

story about the Waterfront:

my friends would drag me there a couple of times a year.  i was never much of a fan of the place.  but, they have a good selection of beer and it was a good place for a group of friends to hang out and drink.

so anyway, my friend and i walk in there at about 11 pm on sept 11.  his brother worked in the the WTC, and we had spent from 10 am on hoofing it around NYC hospitals, filing out forms, looking for him, etc (never found him).

at any rate, not that this bartender knew out particular circumstance at all, but we were the only 2 people there save about 4 others.  the mood was obviously a little low.  anyway, my friend orders me a wheat beer as i was still outside.  now, i *hate* wheat beer.  but he didn't know it.  and all i wanted was cold lager.  my feet hurt.  my body hurt.  my heart hurt.  i didn't know where i was going to sleep or if i could get home.  it was just Miller time is all.

the bartender had poured the 2 wheats and i said to my friend "i can't drink this".  the bartender hears this and said "well your friend ordered it!".  i looked at him and said, "well, i know, but i can't drink it, do you have bud in bottles?"  he replies with something along the lines of "well, i poured that already so you have to pay for it".  i was like, "yeah, dickhead, don't worry about the 4 bucks, i'll cover it" (not in so many words). he huffs and puffs, what with the weight of the world being on his shoulders and all.  apparently, this guy hadn't read the news that day and didn't notice that upwards of 7 thousand people were believed buried less than a mile from his bar.   at any rate, after his performance, we didn't finish our beers.  left him a quarter tip and walked out (paid for the beers).

we get a block away, and this tosser comes running out of the bar yelling at us, calling us names and whatnot.  it just didn't dawn on him that he might have been an idiot.

needless to say, we won't be back.  it's people like him who make the bars in NYC suck.

[tommy]

Quote: from Wilfrid on 2:20 pm on Feb. 7, 2002

Sounds like a plan!

nothin to it but to do it.

[Bux]

There were bars in NY that probably would have qualified. There still must be some. There were a bunch of Irish bars on 3rd Avenue in the 60s. Both the cross streets and the decade, come to think of it. In a way, PJ Clarke's was one of them, but it was already too much of a show biz place. I think Glennon's was the one I liked. It probably started as a working class bar, but by then it hosted a pretty upscale group of button down shirts and suits after work. I think it was still a largely Irish-American crowd.

About a year later, I discovered the Cedar Bar on University near 9th Street and Dillon's next door to where the new and, for me, disconnected Cedar Bar is now. The Cedar Bar had no wood panelling and Dilon's was too dark to tell what was on the walls, but it was always empty. It was also where DeKooning drank when he wanted to get away from the limelight and more intense posing of the Cedar Bar. Dillon's was a real dump. It was like a place you expected to find in a depressed coal mining town. I liked it.

At about that time, someone took me to Fanelli's.  We went to get take out draft beer in large containers. If you know anything about NYS liquor laws, you know that's totally illegal. Fanelli used to serve the factory workers. They might have lunch or drinks during the day and stop off for a few after they got off work at four. The bar closed by five or six in the evening. By the time artists started living in SoHo in enough numbers to be a clientele, every year it seemd the bar would stay open an hour later, but it was best at lunch when a dollar bought a fifty cent bowl of soup (the soup was often terriific, and not infrequently half cooked vegetables or beans in hot water depending on how drunk the cook was the night before), a quarter glass of beer leaving another quarter for a big tip. The waitresses were all young, sweet and really nice like family. In fact at least three of them married guys from the bar. For the same dollar, you also got to bullshit with various art world luminaries or hopefuls at the revolving tables.

I used to bring my daughter in there regularly. One day I sat her at the bar with her orange juice and I turned around to talk to a friend and the next thing I knew she was making a lot of noise. She didn't want the juice and had finished off my beer. She was about three at the time and Mike Fanelli was pretty upset, but remember this was the same guy that sold take out beer in paper cups. I don't know how long it's been since the old guy passed away, but I've only been in there two or three times since. A few of the same guys still hang out there in between the tourists and students, but it's not the same. It's also not been in the gallery district for quite some time now.

[mogsob]

There are no good pubs left in NYC.   The last two, The British Open and The North Star closed last year.

We do, however, have some really good old-time bars: Landmark Tavern, Old Town, PJ Clarke's, Chumley's, Fanelli's, Pete's, Keens.

We also have an amazing selection of great cocktail lounges:  Bemelman's Bar, Merc Bar, Temple Bar, King Cole Bar, Cibar, Angel's Share, First, Cafe Noir, Vodka Bar, Campbell Apartment, Mark's Bar, Savoy Lounge, Top of the Tower just to name a few.

But, sadly, no more true pubs.

[ChefGrrl]

Of course they're not true pubs, because it's New York, and we have a different culture and ethos when it comes to drinking.  That said, two of my favorites for afternoon pints are Puck Fair just south of Houston on Lafayette, and Swift's Hibernian Lounge, on fourth Street off Lafayette.  During peak times these are annoying and smoky, but I like the atmosphere at both the rest of the time.

[tommy]

Quote: from ChefGrrl on 11:00 am on Feb. 8, 2002

Of course they're not true pubs, because it's New York, and we have a different culture and ethos when it comes to drinking

i was just about to say that, and you took the words right out of my mouth.   although, you stated it more elequently than i would have.

puck fair is a decent enough bar.  a reasonable crowd generally.

o'neills on 3rd ave at about 45th has a good crowd as well.  good bartenders.  a bunch of irish folk own and run the place.  the daytime bartenders are worth their weight in gold.

[yvonne johnson]

Do you think we might have enough here for a decent pub crawl? I favor pubs that are within staggering distance of home so I'll be trying the downtown places first. Thanks for reminding me of the Viceroy, Ruby. I keep saying I'm going to try it.

As for the Coach & Horses, Wilfrid, many a night I've spent in there. I may've recounted this elsewhere, but what the heck.  As was usual (as always, more like), Jeffrey Bernard was sitting at the bar. My boyfriend (now husband) ordered a pint for himself and a G&T for me. Bernard to boyfriend: "For god's sake man, do the right thing. Get her a double". People said he had a mean streak. I will always remember him very fondly.

[Bux]

I will always be indebted to my daughter's college roommate's younger sister who took us in her care at graduation weekend. I recall getting a drink with my wife at the bar at an evening party of dance. As we approached the bar, she advised each of us to get two drinks, adding that the line was going to get very long, very quickly. It was some of the most useful advice anyone has ever given to me.

[Wilfrid]

Quote: from yvonne johnson on 12:01 pm on Feb. 8, 2002

As for the Coach & Horses, Wilfrid, many a night I've spent in there.

If the many nights you spent there occurred between 1987 and 1997, Yvonne, there is a chance we know each other - at least by sight.  I would like to tell some Norman Balon anecdotes, but someone would then switch the language-censor machine on.  He called his "autobiography" "You´re Barred You Bastards2 - I never ever heard him call anyone something as nice as "you bastard".

Er, yes, New York.  Bux, I envy your memories.  The Landmark Tavern is nice, but well out of the way (over on Tenth, right?).

Sounds like we might have a regional e-Gullet liquid dinner in the making.

(Edited by Wilfrid at 2:21 pm on Feb. 8, 2002)

[tommy]

Quote: from Wilfrid on 2:13 pm on Feb. 8, 2002[brSounds like we might have a regional e-Gullet liquid dinner in the making.

the first round is on me!  (within reason, of course)

[thereuare]

Tommy,

You hit the nail on the head, the bars suck because of the people in them (most of the staff, and some of the patrons included!)

As JHLurie wrote:

"As far as McSoreley's itself goes, I've still found it pleasant during off-peak hours."

The above applies to most bars, as at off-hours you don't have to deal with the B.S. of other people.

My fiance loves the story about the time she was at some "swank" NYC bar and ordered 3 drinks, one of them being Vodka and Soda w/ a Splash of Cranberry (or something like that).

Well, the bartendress brings 3 drinks and says, "ฦ" (or whatever the amount is).  My fiance points to one of the glasses and says "I think that one is supposed to be with a splash of cranberry" (the bartendress forgot the cranberry).  Well, without having ot pour out anything from the glass, the bartendress takes the "gun" and shoots a drop of cranberry in it, and says "Now that'll be ว."

[yvonne johnson]

OK, you're on Tommy. Now where and when is this eGullet bar session going to be? I think we posters will have to arrange this without the help of our esteemed moderator. The London crowd have the able Lynes help arrange a dinner, the NJ group have J and R Perlow to host a banquet in Newark. Mr. Shaw has arranged diddly squat for us NY egulletarians. And in these important matters we need someone who is dead dependable (we still await the champagne guidelines for heaven’s sake).

So, when? Saturday 16th March any good? I see that several of you suggest going to some pubs at off hours, but it might be unwise to start drinking in the AM –not that that’s out of the question. We could start in the afternoon/very early evening? I imagine most people favor week-end. However, I'm off work the week of March 18, so I’d go out any week-day night that week.

What about we start off in the Village, say, the former Lion's Head/Monkey's Paw/now something else (I’ll check the new name this weekend) at 59 Christopher's Street (b/w 7th Ave and Greenwich Aves--it's good for the subway). If this is the place where Jessica Lange waited tables, then it's good enough for me.

(Wilfrid, I was a semi-regular at the C&H between 1980 and 1988. For some reason our chum Booooooooth always got the table at the right hand door (facing the bar). We got there 5PM, or was opening time 5.30PM in those days, and stayed there most of the night, then stumbled out to go to Jimmy’s for Greek food. What a fine time)

[tommy]

what day of the week is the 18th?  i was thinking a thursday night.  maybe i'm nuts.

the village seems like the logical spot. are we talking about a bit of a "crawl", or just hanging in one spot.

chumley's is quite good for a group, imho.  however, it's really only beer, so maybe not.

hmmm, so many choices.

[jhlurie]

I get the feeling that if someone else planned it, Señor Shaw might show up.  :D

[tommy]

I get the feeling that if someone else planned it, Señor Shaw might show up.  :D

ok, so the plan now is to handle this all via private email.  on the down-low.  

[Liza]

I'm throwing it in for the International at 1st and 7th. Best jukebox in town, old scratchy wooden bar, and that weird old guy with the long grey hair always perched at the end.

My Irish-born husband and I used to go to the Scratcher on 5th St. as well which satisfied the pub-going needs of many Irish.

I can't remember the name of the pub on the east side midtown that has an actual snug...

[yvonne johnson]

At least we’ve got the ball rolling. But where are all the eGulletarians who like a pint or two? I think Wilfrid is in Spain at the mo, but maybe we need to agree on a day. Tommy, are you favoring weekday b/c you live in NJ, but work in NY? Week nights are ok in general for me.  You suggest a Thursday.  Thursday 14th or 21st March is fine for me. What about Fridays?

Tommy asks: A crawl or stay in one spot? Questions, questions. We can decide that on the day maybe.

[tommy]

yes, i don't live in the city, so the week is better for me.  also, i wouldn't want to "waste" a weekend night with a bunch of strangers.  also, i try not to drink to much on weekends as i like getting up early and making the most out of the day.  yes, that means i get most of my serious drinking done during the week.

liza, is the international the place that is long and narrow?