Wine without food

[Michael M]

My original topic certainly sparked the kind of conversation I was hoping for, if not all of it on the subject I'd hoped. Still...

NeroW, I like the La Vis Chardonnay a lot for the price ($10-15). Not as mineral as a Chablis, nor as dry, but light, apple-pear and a bit of cream; I'd guess unoaked as that's the style there (NE Italy).

Those saying they rarely drink wine w/o food - that's where I was headed. I know many approach wine as a food item, or at least as a food-paired item. I've just lately realized I don't feel that way.

In regard to restaurant mark-ups, I, too have a hard time paying for a bottle I know I can get retail for less. But I also don't mind paying for a bottle that I'm not familiar with and which can be described to me - I feel I get my $'s worth that way.

[slacker]

I have a slight beef about the idea that as a retailer of wine I have no responsibility for what I sell - the responsibility that a restaurateur is implied to have. Very often it is me who chooses these wines for a restaurateur's list, discount them, and then let him mark them up as he sees fit. I don't begrudge the restaurateur his mark up, nor wish that I could do the same.

Profit is a dirty word in the wine trade still, and I think that it is really because we buy, we sell, adding little value. But people need to realise that the wines that I do not buy are as important as those that I do. Selection is all.

[slkinsey]

I'm not sure it follows that wine markups are so much more than food markups or less justified. Consider this... Babbo sells a primo of "linguine with clams, pancetta and hot chilis" for 20 bucks. Here is a recipe for the same dish. A serving for one includes 1/4 pound of boutique linguine, 1/4 pound of clams, 1/8 of a medium red onion, 1/16 pound pancetta, 1 clove of garlic, 2 tablespoons evoo, 1 teaspoon crushed red chiles, 1/2 cup white wine, 1 tablespoon unsalted butter and 1/16 cup chopped parsley. Looking at retail prices, let's say a buck for the pasta at Zabar's, a buck-fifty for the clams and 50 cents for the pancetta at Citarella, and let's call it another buck for everything else combined. Total food cost: 4 dollars (and this is being very generous, since these are top retail prices -- the actual food cost to Babbo is likely </= 1 dollar). Markup: 500%.

Now, some value is added in the kitchen, you say? Okay. How much? Is the kitchen adding five times the cost of the food? Is it five times better than you can do at home? Or, might it be the case that the 500% markup includes other costs that figure into your restaurant experience?

Part of what I gather Craig was saying applies here. I am quite confident that most of us here could make the abovedescribed pasta dish just as well as they do at Babbo for a fraction of the cost. But you pay more to have the dish prepared by an expert and served in a nice setting, etc. Likewise, you pay to have someone serve you a bottle of wine in primo condition, that they have helped you match with the food, and that you consume in a nice setting, etc. -- all this for a smaller markup most of the time. The value added by the restaurant may not be as apparent as it is when a cook shakes your clams in a saute plan, but energy and money are nevertheless expended in selection, storage, glassware, etc.

I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the wine business, but I am given to understand that running a wine program is a lot more expensive than one might think. Just having the wines on hand, and employing someone to help you select them can be quite expensive. Not to mention that all the costs which figure into the food markup (rent, maintenance, linens, dishwashers, etc.) figure into the wine markup as well. I also don't observe that places like Babbo are generally charging a 500% markup on their wines. Personally, I am much more taken aback by the markup on twelve dollar cocktails than I am 100 dollar bottles of wine.

[hwilson41]

Slkinsey came close to this, but let me state it explicitly: holding a wine cellar is expensive even if you only mark it up "a little". What is not being considered is the time value of money (check the interest bill on your mortgage). Even in these days of preposterously low interest rates - which won’t last - money sitting around is worth something, and if it’s tied up in wines in a cellar that may or may not move in the next 3, or 6, or 12 months, then the folks who have allocated that capital to the wine cellar are entitled to a return on it. Does that justify a 500% markup? No, of course not, assuming the wine cellar is chosen intelligently, but it does justify a markup of more than, say, 10%. A side of aged beef that will be carved into ribeye steaks and what-have-you will last maybe...two or three nights. Three (or 5, or 50, or whatever) cases of a good wine could last a year, maybe more, depending on the circumstances. Holding the wines in cellar is relatively inexpensive now, because of the low interest rates, but it wasn’t always so, and the day is not as far away as we might wish when it probably won’t be all that inexpensive again to hold onto them for six months or a year...or more.

My wife and I go out to dinner less frequently that I would like, for exactly these reasons. I can prepare a meal as good - or close to as good - as a medium to upper level restaurant for a hell of a lot less money, and I know damned well I can buy the wine cheaper. And it's no big deal to me because I enjoy cooking. But when we go, I don't bitch, because those folks have to make money too. If you think you’re being gouged - on the wine or the food - don’t go, or at least don’t go back. But if you decide to go to a restaurant, pay the freight. You are the one that made the choice .

THW

[tommy]

let's not forget that the places with well-stocked wine cellars, carefully picked by a knowledgeable person who understands the food/wine dynamic, are certainly in the minority.

i'm not offended at babbo's markups (considering the selection, to me, always seems unique) as much as i am a local mom and pop place in the 'burbs when they've got 3 boring and seemingly random wines on the "list" that no one really wants to drink the the first place at a 300-400% markup. no, i won't say that i might as well stay home if i don't want to pay that markup, because the food might be very good, but there's a good chance i'll avoid that restaurant, especially if they're not comfortable with a BYO situation. everyone loses.

[hwilson41]

let's not forget that the places with well-stocked wine cellars, carefully picked by a knowledgeable person who understands the food/wine dynamic, are certainly in the minority. 

i'm not offended at babbo's markups (considering the selection, to me, always seems unique) as much as i am a local mom and pop place in the 'burbs when they've got 3 boring and seemingly random wines on the "list" that no one really wants to drink the the first place at a 300-400% markup.  no, i won't say that i might as well stay home if i don't want to pay that markup, because the food might be very good, but there's a good chance i'll avoid that restaurant, especially if they're not comfortable with a BYO situation.  everyone loses.

Tommy; I agree completely. The places with the well and thoughtfully chosen wine cellars were the ones I was talking about. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I live just outside DC, and we have way fewer first rate restaurants that you folks in NYC, but we do have some, and I love to go to them. But when we go, I order whatever I damn well please. To me, dining out at a fine restaurant and having to say to myself "Damn, we really can't afford this." while I read the menu just doesn't make sense. If you have to worry about that, you shouldn't have gone in the first place.

The mom and pops who are gouging get whatever they deserve. I am perfectly capable of choosing my own crappy wine cellar. I know, because I've done it more than once . In the case of the mom and pops, I either don't go, in which case you're right and everybody loses, or I just grin and bear it. But the food better be over the top if I'm willing to get screwed on a lousy wine. More likely, I'd order the food and either drink water or beer.

THW

[tommy]

Tommy; I agree completely.  The places with the well and thoughtfully chosen wine cellars were the ones I was talking about.  Sorry if I wasn't clear.

oh no. it wasn't you in particular THW. i'm speaking to the thought that markups are reasonable given what goes into providing the service of wine service...but sometimes it's simply nonexistent.

and sam, for real, you have waaaay too much confidence in my cooking ability. i don't think i'll be pulling off any babbo-type pastas at home without considerable effort (read: expense). even if i could, i'm paying for the convenience of *not* having to shop and cook (read: expense). that, to me, is worth the 18 dollar price tag on the bowl of 2 bucks of ingredients. time is money, kid.

Edited April 13, 2004 by tommy (log)

[mongo_jones]

The value added by the restaurant may not be as apparent as it is when a cook shakes your clams in a saute plan, but energy and money are nevertheless expended in selection, storage, glassware, etc.

this is all true but it still doesn't work as an analogy. doubtless care and selection goes into a restaurant's wine-cellar--i am not knocking either the vintner's or the sommelier's craft. however, people who couldn't microwave a frozen pasta meal can still open the same bottle of wine they might get at a restaurant with no effort (well, not some of my friends, but that's another story). they can even learn to serve it at the right temperature and in the right glass-ware by merely investing in equipment rather than, say, learning to cook well.

the true analogy would be to compare the selection of wine with the selection of ingredients for a home-cooked meal; however, once you've selected the ingredients you'll still need to do something with them that still involves more art than uncorking a bottle (or soon, twisting its cap off).

and if you believe that the average person who buys a bottle or glass of wine at a restaurant has truly selected the perfect wine for their meal, well then you know a much more wine-savvy class of people than i do. what is the average sommelier's recommendation to actual purchase average i wonder? at the high end places it may be higher (or people may know more about wine); but this argument probably doesn't even apply to people at these places. however, at the middle of the road places, where usually some pimply kid is the one making the wine recommendation, i don't see how much less of a crapshoot it is than if i go to a good wine-store and ask a staff-member to help me select a wine to go with x, y or z home-cooked dish.

i suppose the larger question in this thread is whether wine can truly be enjoyed by itself or whether it needs to go with food. those who would say the latter will need to consider whether this means people who predominantly eat certain cuisines that are supposed to be extremely wine-unfriendly--say most indian cuisines--can have no relationship with wine. on the other hand if there are certain wines that are better enjoyed by themselves than others i'd like to know which ones they are. as i've said on a different thread in our home we eat indian dishes 60% of the time, korean 35% and other 5% of the time. should we just not bother with wine?

[Felonius]

this is all true but it still doesn't work as an analogy. doubtless care and selection goes into a restaurant's wine-cellar--i am not knocking either the vintner's or the sommelier's craft. however, people who couldn't microwave a frozen pasta meal can still open the same bottle of wine they might get at a restaurant with no effort

It may not take much expertise to open a bottle of wine, but in many high end dining establishments, a tremendous amount of time and expertise has gone into stocking the cellar. For example, there are small production wines on the list at places like Cafe Boulud and Daniel that a retail consumer will never get their hands on at any price (except perhaps at Auction). These sommeliers have often spent many years traveling the world's wine regions, building relationships with top vintners and trying to identify up-and-coming stars. They also go to great lengths to procure wine with a meticulous provenance and storage record (this is especially important for older vintages), and may even be able to procure older vintages directly from the cave of the producer. I don't mind paying a fairly hefty markup in exchange for access to an exceptional collection of wines built by a top sommelier.

Edited April 13, 2004 by Felonius (log)

[Scott]

the analogy fails:

a home cook may not be able to cook the same dishes she gets at a restaurant.

however, she can buy the exact same bottle from a store that she could at a restaurant.

but then there's the argument about how restaurants spend gobs money and time making sure the wines they select will compliment the food.

those restaurants, of course, are the minority, but that won't stop people from trying to use the argument.

Tommy,

you're right, this is a common argument. That it is rarely true doesn't stop them claiming to have done so.

[Scott]

I am astonished by how 'apologetic' the tone is on some restaurant markups.

there are many arguments put forward, but few really hold up.

1. I have carefully chosen the wine list.

A) no you haven't, in all likelihood you have a few big ticket items, and you have had a rep help you out.

2. I have to fund the huge cellar?

A) rubbish. who asked you to fill it with a lot of trophy wines that people won't actually buy. Who says it has to be that big? what's the real selection like?

A) Funding? is this the same funding that retailer doesn't have to make? oh wait, they have to do it too, and markups are often rated against the retail price. The retailer has to pay for his stock holding too. And if the stock is too highly priced, he has to discount it to move it.

3. the glassware, washing, preparation and ceremony on opening etc.

A) certainly glassware is an expense, but how many places have lousy hardware? don't claim it as an expense if you don't ante up.

A) Washing etc. Either you have dish pigs already or more likely you have a machine, they're not that expensive.

A) ceremony of presentation, candle decanting etc. how necessary is that? Isn't it just a form of artifice to justify the pricing, not the other way round. How many of them need to do this? I haven't ordered too many 1959's recently, so otherwise you're just decanting for air - how hard is that.

It comes down to this, many places use the wine list as the driver for their profitability. Is that right? I don't happen to think so, get your business model right, charge properly and let joe public make his call.

I know for a fact that at Restaurant Gordon Ramsay in London, the team have a morning meeting during which they look over the evenings booking sheet, and try to identify known punters they can hawk the stupidly expensive stuff to. I am led to believe this happens elsewhere also.

It's a common view in the UK to break even on food, and get your profit from the booze. As someone with a keen interest in the booze, this is disappointing.

Edited April 13, 2004 by Scott (log)

[tommy]

the arugment about using the markup in wines to fund the rest of the operation makes some sense to me...until i look at the countless restaurants in NJ without liquor that seem to be doing just fine without charging outrageous amounts for food. i suppose there are other factors that i just can't understand.

personally, i like wine with food and rarely drink it unless i'm eating or just ate or getting ready to eat. i suppose the point of this thread was to get people's opinions on that.

Edited April 13, 2004 by tommy (log)

[Scott]

Another thing I forgot to mention, which I think is fairly little known, is about those small boutique producers you're caring, loving and gouging restauranteur happened across.

These places are often offered this wine, to increase visibility. I make a few hundred cases, I can never satisfy demand, but if I can maximise the amount of people who see it by placing it strategically in certain restaurants.

When I worked retail, one importer of some super US wines wouldn't let us have some things because they were only designated for the on trade.

He hasn't worked hard to find this, it's probably landed in his lap.

Note to self, must stop ranting

[mongo_jones]

this is all true but it still doesn't work as an analogy. doubtless care and selection goes into a restaurant's wine-cellar--i am not knocking either the vintner's or the sommelier's craft. however, people who couldn't microwave a frozen pasta meal can still open the same bottle of wine they might get at a restaurant with no effort

It may not take much expertise to open a bottle of wine, but in many high end dining establishments, a tremendous amount of time and expertise has gone into stocking the cellar. For example, there are small production wines on the list at places like Cafe Boulud and Daniel that a retail consumer will never get their hands on at any price (except perhaps at Auction). These sommeliers have often spent many years traveling the world's wine regions, building relationships with top vintners and trying to identify up-and-coming stars. They also go to great lengths to procure wine with a meticulous provenance and storage record (this is especially important for older vintages), and may even be able to procure older vintages directly from the cave of the producer. I don't mind paying a fairly hefty markup in exchange for access to an exceptional collection of wines built by a top sommelier.

felonious,

if you'll read a later paragraph of my post you'll see that i pretty much concede the point to restaurants of the type you cite.

i'd love some responses to the non-markup part of my post--about the question of wine and food: is wine best enjoyed with food? is food best enjoyed with wine? and in either case what about people who eat cuisines that don't "go with wine"?

Edited April 13, 2004 by mongo_jones (log)

[Felonius]

Another thing I forgot to mention, which I think is fairly little known, is about those small boutique producers you're caring, loving and gouging restauranteur happened across.

These places are often offered this wine, to increase visibility. I make a few hundred cases, I can never satisfy demand, but if I can maximise the amount of people who see it by placing it strategically in certain restaurants.

When I worked retail, one importer of some super US wines wouldn't let us have some things because they were only designated for the on trade.

He hasn't worked hard to find this, it's probably landed in his lap.

Note to self, must stop ranting

Like it or not, most of the allocation for some small and highly sought after producers like Peter Michael or Turley will go to restaurants. I've been trying to get on the retail distribution list for some of these for years with no luck. There's just not enough supply. If I want to drink one of these wines, I'll likely have to go to a place like Cafe Boulud or Daniel, or scan the wine auction pages for the next six months and place my bid on the few bottles that may or may not show up, and that may or may not have been stored correctly. I have less of a problem paying for access to these wines than I do paying the ubiquitous 300 percent markup for something I can readily buy myself.

As for the "up and coming" wineries seeking out these restaurants to market their wines, I agree to a point. They all do this of course. However, a truly knowledgeable sommelier can sort through the hundreds of up and comers and find some real gems that I might not find until they are discovered by the wine media (at which point their prices usually skyrocket and/or they become impossible to find at retail). An example for me last year was Aubert Chardonnay. Mark Aubert worked for Helen Turley at Peter Michael and later ran the vineyards. His first independent offering was snapped up by a few top restaurants, one of which introduced me to this exceptional wine. They bought it at about thirty dollars a bottle and sold it both by the glass and the bottle for the usual 3x New York city markup. The wine subsequently earned a 95 point rating from Wine Spectator and if you're lucky enough to find it at retail, you'll likely pay sixty or seventy dollars a bottle for it. In retrospect, the restaurant price was somewhat of a bargain, as I was drinking a spectacular wine at a price I didn't mind paying given the quality level.

I'm not saying this is a usual occurence at most restaurants, but that the few places that put a serious effort into their wine program can indeed add value that in my mind justifies the markup. I think such places deserve some credit for their efforts. However, you will never see me willingly pay a 3x markup for mainstream wines offered by the majority of NYC restaurants. I usually just order whatever is least offensive by the glass, and save my money for a place like Veritas or Cafe Boulud that has an interesting wine list.

[Felonius]

if you'll read a later paragraph of my post you'll see that i pretty much concede the point to restaurants of the type you cite.

i'd love some responses to the non-markup part of my post--about the question of wine and food: is wine best enjoyed with food? is food best enjoyed with wine? and in either case what about people who eat cuisines that don't "go with wine"?

I just read the post and apologize if I was off the mark here.

Getting back on topic, here's my opinion.

Wine is best enjoyed with food, if the pairings are well thought out. The right synergy can make both the food and the wine more enjoyable. Personally, I can't imagine eating a truly great meal without wine, nor would I want to drink an exceptional bottle of most wine varietals without a meal (or at least cheese) as a compliment.

Having said that, I'd rather drink wine by itself than with a bad food pairing. Acidic foods, sweet foods, etc. can absolutely ruin the taste of even the best wines.

As I mentioned before, there are a few wines that I am just as happy enjoying by themselves. Sauternes and other dessert wines are a notable example. On the other end of the scale is Bordeaux/Cabernet, which I don't enjoy at all without food.

As for food that is hard to pair with wines, I haven't experimented much (and maybe I should). I love spicy food such as Indian, Sichuan, etc. but nearly always skip wine and go with beer in such cases. If the food overpowers the wine, why spend the money when beer is cheap? I'd be interested to hear what wines others Egulleteers enjoy pairing with this sort of food.

Edited April 14, 2004 by Felonius (log)

[docsconz]

Some cuisines are more difficult to pair with wine, but as I learned from Bikky at Amma, my preconceived notions about what cuisines are or are not wine friendly aren't always true. i always thought Indian food would be amongst the most difficult to pair and especially pair well. Bikky disabused me of that notion. I have previously had successful pairings with Chinese and Thai. Of course, Japanese is great with rice "wine", although I have yet to experience a really good pairing with grape wine.

Felonius, I agree absolutely with your last post (with the exception of the last paragraph) - at least my viewpoint is the same.