Long Live the King

[JPW]

Missing from the above posts is the observation that BK's "we're returning to our roots" angle is clearly the latest of a number of floundering attempts to rescue a shrivelling brand. They're running scared: closing stores by the score, doing their best to "buy" credibility (ie: Bayless gambit and return of founder), tweaking the menu...All signs of a desperately ill company in decline.

Which is, of course, a good thing.

Our neighborhoods will be better places without their ugly, once-ubiquitous logo.

They can smear "real" mayo on whatever they like. Chop boatloads of fresh onions in their buffalo choppers (then hold them until sour in vast plastic trays). It's still a shit burger (however marginally "better" than Mickey D's). That they are significantly less loved than they used to be is a heartening development.

There's blood in the water.

Today the King.

Tomorrow the Clown.

I disagree with one major thing in your missive -- the only change will be the replacing of their logo with the Golden Arches as the Microsoft-ification of the fast food industry continues.

I think that the only real hope is for McD's to drive enough of the other companies out of business that their monompoly position begins to attract the interest of the FTC. Only they can stop the Clown.

Yeah, right!

I do agree that BK's recent thrashing shows a company with real problems. The corporate parent has been adding and deleting brands more than just about any other food industry company in recent years. They don't have the supply chain efficiency of McD's and also lack the leverage over their franchisees that McD's does.

[skchai]

I read somewhere that James Beard loved McDonald's fries (back when they fried them in beef tallow).  Is that documented anywhere?

I think you're referring to the 1973 Time magazine cover story on the Big Mac. In it, they had Craig Claiborne, James Beard, Julia Child, and Gael Green evaluate McD's food. All of them gave surprisingly non-negative appraisals, though not exactly effusive either. John and Karen Hess used this in The Taste of America as one of their main pieces of evidence that the U.S. establishment was corrupted.

[SobaAddict70]

Safer and easier than chopping onions.

I can't imagine that any fast food places have actual people chopping onions, much less whipping mayonaisse.

You haven't seen disgusting until you've seen a skin form on top of mayonnaise that's been sitting in a tub filled with ice cubes for at least 30 minutes to an hour. It was part of the routine we had when I worked in a BK.

You had to change the ice cube tray on a regular basis because god forbid the ice cubes melted -- that meant the mayo would warm up and then we'd have to ditch the tub.

If a skin formed, we had to remove it and stir the mayo around to get it all mixed up again.

As for onions and tomatoes, we used an industrial mandoline. (Metal with a blade sharper than Zorro's sword.)

Oh, cleanliness?!?! Let me show you icky cleanliness. Let's talk about changing the oil at least once every two or three days because the fry station was uber-greasy. Let's talk about melting a block of vegetable shortening in the fry station. Let's talk about the walk-in freezer which was probably cleaned about once a month, if that. Let's talk about the sinks in the back with all the gunky salad bar station trays, jars and containers. Let's talk about the grody crap on the red-tiled floors that we'd have to scrape up after sweeping and before mopping. Let's talk about the grease covered pit in the parking lot in the rear of the BK I used to work at whilst in high school, where we dumped the daily garbage. Let's talk about the eternal overhanging odiferous cloud that seemed to follow me whenever I entered the restaurant -- that strangely pungent smell of burger grease and stale lettuce that never seemed to go away even when the uniforms were washed.

I have bad memories.

Calgon, take me away!

Soba

[Holly Moore]

Missing from the above posts is the observation that BK's "we're returning to our roots"  angle is clearly the latest of a number of floundering attempts to rescue a shrivelling brand. They're running scared: closing stores by the score,  doing their best to "buy" credibility (ie: Bayless gambit and return of founder), tweaking the menu...All signs of a desperately ill company in decline.

Which is, of course, a good thing.

Our neighborhoods will be better places without their ugly, once-ubiquitous logo.

They can smear "real" mayo on whatever they like. Chop boatloads of fresh onions in their buffalo choppers (then hold them until sour in vast plastic trays). It's still a shit burger (however marginally "better" than Mickey D's). That they are significantly less loved than they used to be is a heartening development.

There's blood in the water.

Today the King.

Tomorrow the Clown.

I did regional marketing for BK back in the mid-70's and product development for McD's in the late 60's. Got to know their operations pretty well. Good points and bad. I know that McD and BK can produce a decent hamburger and in the case of a BK Double Cheese Whopper, a very good to great hamburger. At least they could, back then, when the menu was limited and when the operations department, not the guys in the green eye shades, had the final say.

Back in the golden age of fast food the meat was purchased fresh, and locally. Same for the produce. Way back, the fries were fresh cut and fried twice. Onions and tomatoes were sliced or diced a few times a day. Burger King used real mayonnaise. McDonald's whipped up it's tartar sauce every day. The focus was on how quickly food went from cooked to customer, not on precooking and extending holding times.

Staffing was different then too. Mostly high school and college kids. There were waiting lists. Some McD franchisees would only hire A students. The guy working the grill, a spatula in each hand, flipping 6 hamburgers at a time was as much a god as the varsity quarterback and took as much pride in his skill. Back then most everybody in corporate operations came up through the ranks. Many had started as hourly employees, the rest as assistant managers.

Never saw a buffalo chopper in McD's or BK. Slicers and tomato kings, but no buffalo chopper. And the produce was prepped at least twice a day. Didn't hang around long enough to go sour.

McDonald's and Burger King have both lost it. I blame it most on the expanded menu. Too many ingredients. Too many cooking processes. Too many finished products. Can't keep cooked food fresh. Can't provide quick service.

I'd love to see BK or McD open up a retro chain. Same menu as way back when. I'm willing to bet the lines would once again be out the door, but moving fast.

[mongo_jones]

It's still a shit burger (however marginally "better" than Mickey D's).

i have to disagree. i've eaten very good burgers and i think the whopper is a pretty good burger, or at least used to be.

the caveat: i used to eat whoppers while i was at grad school at usc in los angeles--the only options for food near campus were burger king, a very scary food court (which did make a divine orange chicken), and the expensive crap on campus. as such i used to go to burger king not in a rush but with loads of time on my hands. i would ask for a burger to be made "fresh" for me--not reheated etc. under these conditions it was pretty good. this was 8 years ago though--i can't speak for possible recent declines.

as for the general issue of fast-food culture, we wouldn't be in much disagreement but if i had to choose between a neighbourhood of golden arches or burger kings i'd go with the burger kings.

[clothier]

Somewhere, there's a VP of Operation's who lives in fear that someone will walk inot a BK or McD's, and not see something they like on the menu. So, we have salads, gobs of bad chicken sandwiches and other assorted crap that soaks up inventory space, and keeps them from doing what they do well. Cook burgers and fries.

How much better would the food be if they both cleared the decks, and just kept the top 5 sellers?

[Bicycle Lee]

I love whoppers...and I even like the heavy-duty mayo that they use on them... it's like the foodservice stuff that comes in a box...hmmm....

[Jason Perlow]

I'd love to see BK or McD open up a retro chain. Same menu as way back when. I'm willing to bet the lines would once again be out the door, but moving fast.

I completely agree with this, but I think the political cllimate is wrong for it now, with thi s fast food witch hunt thats in favor with society at the moment.

[Toliver]

McDonald's and Burger King have both lost it. I blame it most on the expanded menu. Too many ingredients. Too many cooking processes. Too many finished products. Can't keep cooked food fresh. Can't provide quick service.

Speaking of which, does anyone know how In & Out burgers has been doing, financially speaking? They have a very limited menu. It's the old principal of do one thing and do it right and they will beat a path to your door (or drive-thru). The line at the local In & Outs are always so huge, we almost hate to go there but do go because of the food.

[rickster]

Speaking of which, does anyone know how In & Out burgers has been doing, financially speaking?

They're privately owned, so are not likely to reveal any financial information.

[bilrus]

Safer and easier than chopping onions.

I can't imagine that any fast food places have actual people chopping onions, much less whipping mayonaisse.

However, I understood from the article that onions would henceforth be freshly chopped. Thus my comment that making real mayo freshly would be safer and easier.

Notwithstanding PoorLawyer's dark drift.

Sorry - poor reading skills on my part.

[bilrus]

Unlike many on eGullet, I don't dislike most fast food places. But BK is at or near the bottom of my list. At McDonalds, Taco Bell and many of the other common places, there is at least some consistency between locations and visits.

Burger King seems to have poor quality / consistency control which I would think is one of the two selling points of fast-food (along with convenience).

[John Whiting]

I know that McD and BK can produce a decent hamburger and in the case of a BK Double Cheese Whopper, a very good to great hamburger.  At least they could, back then, when the menu was limited and when the operations department, not the guys in the green eye shades, had the final say. 

You're looking back at a time when it could be profitable to do one thing well, over and over in the same way. A large corporation can no longer survive staying in the same place; it moves either up or down. Up means expansion, expansion means diversification, and diversification means loss of control.

[Holly Moore]

You're looking back at a time when it could be profitable to do one thing well, over and over in the same way. A large corporation can no longer survive staying in the same place; it moves either up or down. Up means expansion, expansion means diversification, and diversification means loss of control.

With McD and BK, the menu expansion was due mostly to growth and the resultant cannibalization of sales as their restaurants opened closer and closer to each other. As the chains grew, the size of each restaurant's trading area became smaller and smaller. Two McD's five miles apart were joined by a third McD 2 1/2 miles from each. Sales dropped, so menu was expanded to bring back existing customers more often and to appeal to additional non-customers in their trading areas.

As you say, it's the natural evolution of things. In a marketing biz school course I took they got into the Wheel of Retailing. It's cyclical. Related to fast food restaurants, the premise is that as McDonald's, Burger King and their cronies grow and mature, and there is greater competition from themselves and from competitors, they expand their menu, fancy up their buildings, and in a few cases add additional services. They become more and more clumsy and sluggish as they approach the top of the wheel. This leaves room at the bottom of the wheel for some ballsy entrepreneur to open up a garish red and white tiled building, with no dining room, that just sells hamburgers, fries and cokes at 20 percent under McD pricing.

[hathor]

I can't imagine that any fast food places have actual people chopping onions, much less whipping mayonaisse.

You haven't seen disgusting until you've seen a skin form on top of mayonnaise that's been sitting in a tub filled with ice cubes for at least 30 minutes to an hour. It was part of the routine we had when I worked in a BK.

You had to change the ice cube tray on a regular basis because god forbid the ice cubes melted -- that meant the mayo would warm up and then we'd have to ditch the tub.

If a skin formed, we had to remove it and stir the mayo around to get it all mixed up again.

As for onions and tomatoes, we used an industrial mandoline. (Metal with a blade sharper than Zorro's sword.)

Oh, cleanliness?!?! Let me show you icky cleanliness. Let's talk about changing the oil at least once every two or three days because the fry station was uber-greasy. Let's talk about melting a block of vegetable shortening in the fry station. Let's talk about the walk-in freezer which was probably cleaned about once a month, if that. Let's talk about the sinks in the back with all the gunky salad bar station trays, jars and containers. Let's talk about the grody crap on the red-tiled floors that we'd have to scrape up after sweeping and before mopping. Let's talk about the grease covered pit in the parking lot in the rear of the BK I used to work at whilst in high school, where we dumped the daily garbage. Let's talk about the eternal overhanging odiferous cloud that seemed to follow me whenever I entered the restaurant -- that strangely pungent smell of burger grease and stale lettuce that never seemed to go away even when the uniforms were washed.

I have bad memories.

Calgon, take me away!

Soba

[John]

On a street right near my mail route, there is a McDonald's and Burger King literally right next to each other. Right across the street is a Wendy's. I like Wendy's 99 cent menu (especially their chili) plus they are very good to postal workers. McDonalds has the best fries, and I like the burgers at Burger King. It is not uncommon to see people go to Burger King for burgers and McDonald's for fries. I've done it myself. Nice to have that choice. Why does Burger King have such lousy fries? I think the new sourdough bacon cheeseburger is very good. Any opinions on this burger? I like it better than the Whopper. A bit expensive at $3.49 plus tax.

[jhlurie]

It's still a shit burger (however marginally "better" than Mickey D's).

i have to disagree. i've eaten very good burgers and i think the whopper is a pretty good burger, or at least used to be.

Gotta' go along with Mixmaster Tony B. here. BK may be marginally better than Le Clown Burger. And in the 1970's it may have been a tiny bit better yet. And Wendy's may be even a tiny bit better yet. But I can go to an assortment of neighborhood bars and get something twenty times better in maybe only twice the time.

Still, I agree that a dedicated chain like In & Out stands the best chance of getting close. No distractions with Chicken fingers, Taco salads, cheese sticks, etc. etc. etc.

[mongo_jones]

well, it doesn't surprise me to hear that restaurants may serve better burgers than fast-food outlets. however, the fact that i don't like fried burgers seems to rule out 90% of the neighbourhood restaurants you allude to.

look, i'm not disputing the world-view that says fast-food is bad (in oh so many ways) for the world. i'd just ask you to consider that there may be people who enjoy certain fast-food products (as they do spam and the like) and not because they're philistines or deluded fools.

then again this is egullet.

[fifi]

That sourdough bacon cheeseburger is actually pretty good. I got one not long ago and requested it "off the broiler". Not bad at all.

[cakewench]

Since the idea of large menus = lower quality has been raised, I would like to ask what people think of Jack in the Box? I used to go there when I lived in TX, and I thought it was pretty good. Artery-clogging real milkshakes (pumpkin pie flavor around Thanksgiving, ahh), curly fries, and the sourdough Jack will live on fondly in my memories.

No, that chain isn't nearly as large as BK or McD's, but they are still a chain, and they somehow seem to do the large menu concept better than the other two. If anyone has an idea as to how, I'd be interested to hear it.

I'm glad to hear that BK is being forced back to its roots a bit, so to speak. I used to enjoy going there as a kid.

I'm also one of the few people who doesn't mind the McD's switch away from beef tallow in their fries. Though, really, their hash browns are the only thing that truly lures me in to that establishment anymore. Hash browns and an egg mcmuffin. mmm. My favorite airport food.

[sml311]

Still, I agree that a dedicated chain like In & Out stands the best chance of getting close. No distractions with Chicken fingers, Taco salads, cheese sticks, etc. etc. etc.

To go mildly off topic, I went to In&Out last summer. It was definitely better than any of the national chains, but I guess from what I'd heard from friends, I was expecting a fast food orgasm. Instead I got fast food heavy petting. Minor letdown.

SML

[Jason Perlow]

It's still a shit burger (however marginally "better" than Mickey D's).

i have to disagree. i've eaten very good burgers and i think the whopper is a pretty good burger, or at least used to be.

Gotta' go along with Mixmaster Tony B. here. BK may be marginally better than Le Clown Burger. And in the 1970's it may have been a tiny bit better yet. And Wendy's may be even a tiny bit better yet. But I can go to an assortment of neighborhood bars and get something twenty times better in maybe only twice the time.

Still, I agree that a dedicated chain like In & Out stands the best chance of getting close. No distractions with Chicken fingers, Taco salads, cheese sticks, etc. etc. etc.

Having never been to an In 'n Out, I cant speak for what they taste like. But my personal favorite fast food -chain- burger will still always be the Nathan's Superburger.

Its grilled on an actual friggin grill, right in front of you, to order. How bad can it be.

[John Whiting]

There may even be an Ancient One out there who remembers Kip's on Durant in Berkeley from half a century ago. Charcoal-broiled hamburgers, cooked to order, a toasted bun, and a relish table aginst the wall where you helped yourself to green or red relish, ketchup, mayonnaise, sliced onion, sliced tomato, sliced dill pickle, lettuce . . . Charcoal broilers in snack bars were new and the flavor was thrilling.

Later across the bay, Hippo offered hamburgers a hundred different ways, all of them good.

[sextons]

look, i'm not disputing the world-view that says fast-food is bad (in oh so many ways) for the world. i'd just ask you to consider that there may be people who enjoy certain fast-food products (as they do spam and the like) and not because they're philistines or deluded fools.

I like fast food too. Being raised in the 70s as a child who's favorite treat was McD's french fries - it's still comfort food to me. I definitely eat fast food once a week - though usually not more than that. When my husband (a chef) is working and I don't feel like cooking for myself (which is rare) - the drivethrough is my friend. I like Burger King's burgers (cheeseburger, extra pickles) - not the best burger in the world but tasty for the price. I love McD's fries - when the oil has been changed and they're hot. But those two items are really the only thing I will eat at either of those restaurants because of too many bad experiences (primarily food that's been under the heat lamp way too long). I agree that they've put too many items on their menu and should focus on what they do best - burgers and fries. The only places I really deviate from my singular menu item is Arby's, Popeyes and Sonic - I actually have had pretty good luck with different menu items at each of these restaurants.