NYC Pizza Survey

[slkinsey]

I'm wondering, in contemplation of the "coal" comment.  Is this lump charcoal, I assume it is.

Nope, it's the mined fossil fuel variety rather than coarcoal, which is made by burning wood in a low oxygen environment. Probably anthracite coal, as I assume bituminous would burn too dirty. They burn the stuff right in the oven where the pizze are made.

Ok, but..

this certainly needs more explanation. As most anthracite coal is mixed with different additives to make stuff like Kingsford, which never burns very hot.

I'll look around, but accept your explanation, for now.

The kind of coal they use in NYC coal-fired ovens is the exact same kind of coal people used to use to heat their houses. Big, shiny, black rocks the size of an extra-large russett potato. Looks like this It is definitely not charcoal.

According to The Clean Coal Technology Compendium, anthracite coal burns very hot.

[Anthracite coal is] a hard, black lustrous coal, often referred to as hard coal, containing a high percentage of fixed carbon and low percentage of volatile matter. coal, found deep in the earth. It burns very hot, with little flame. It usually has a heating value of 12,000-15,000 British thermal units (Btus) per pound.  (Emphasis mine.)

[Daniel]

I think the best way to visit grimaldis is to walk over the brooklyn bridge and go to grimaldis.. I then like to take the pizza out of the store and sit under the brooklyn bridge and eat it.. It is too stuffy in there and think its a great view to be under the bridge.. I then take the water taxi back to south steet sea port..

[slkinsey]

Okay, I'll weigh in with my impressions and respond to a few points raised upthread.

We showed up at around 11:55 and Joe and I ducked our heads into the empty restaurant, upon doing which we were immediately greeted by a surly chorus of "we're not open yet" from a group assembled near the oven. After Joe explained who we were and that we had telephoned the previous day, they loosened up a little bit but no one made any overt effort to welcome us and show us around or anything (which I thought was a little odd, considering that the restaurant was empty and most of them were just standing around). Anyway, Joe was eventually able to engage one of them with some interesting questions about the oven and the coal, etc. Somewhere in there I snapped a picture of the oven and was told "no pictures of the oven" by the oven man. It was hard to tell whether this is a policy of the restaurant or whether the oven man just didn't want his picture taken. In any event, most everyone seemed in a distinctly unfriendly mood for 12:00 on a Sunday.

Right around that time Chris, the guy we were told would answer all our questions, showed up and began demonstrating a thorough disinterest in answering any questions or showing us around beyond a curt "if the oven man told you 'no' that means 'no.'" At that point, customers had begun to stream into the restaurant and, sensing that we had worn out our welcome, we retreated to our table. I guess that, to a certain extent, they are getting their comeuppance now that this attitude is described in the pages of a widely read food oriented web site.

While I don't think it's necessarily an excuse, since the comparison has been made, I think there are things that help explain the difference in attitude between Grimaldi's and Di Fara. While Di Fara is growing in reputation and becoming more widely known among Internet food-types and food writers, it is still fundamentally a small neighborhood place that does not attract a great deal of tourism, etc. Indeed, Di Fara is still relatively unknown among New Yorkers. Grimaldi's, on the other hand, has a reputation that is known much more widely. For example, Japanese tourists are frequently seen there laden with cameras and with guidebooks in hand. It's a much larger operation, and they bang out more pizza between 12:00 and 2:00 than Di Fara does in an entire day. What this means is that they undoubtedly have to deal with people who want to ask the same old questions and take their pictures and think they are deserving of some special attention on a daily basis. This kind of thing gets tiring awfully fast, and can definitely lead to a certain attitude -- especially when they know they don't have to rely on repeat customers to stay in business. In contrast, this kind of attention and inquiry is still a relatively rare occurance and a special surprise for Dom at Di Fara, who has also developed a personal style one would expect from someone who had cultivated the repeat business a neighborhood pizzeria needs to stay alive for so many years. Without a doubt, the atmosphere figures into the experience at Di Fara in a way that it is not at Grimaldi's.

Anyway, on to the pizza...

This pizza was closer to the way I prefer it, which is to say that it was mostly about the crust. Michael, Joe and I had a brief but interesting conversation about the different ways one can approach certain elemental foods like bread and pasta. For some people, pasta is mostly a vehicle for the sauce. They tend to prefer their pasta dishes with the sauce playing the primary role, and if there is a tasty sauce they would prefer to have plenty of it. For others, pasta is mostly about the pasta and the sauce is merely a condiment. This is not to say that the sauce isn't important, but rather that the most important thing is that one is able to taste the pasta itself. Needless to say, this second group tends to prefer a lot less sauce on their pasta. I definitely fall in the latter group, and this also happens to be the Italian aesthetic.

For me, the best pizza is all about the crust and the other toppings are there to complement the crust. In that sense, I felt that Grimaldi's pizza approached my own ideal in that the toppings were understated and few. As Joe pointed out, the sauce was little more than filetti di pomodoro, salt and a little evoo. No herbs, no garlic, no extras. The toppings were applied with a very moderate hand, and there was usually a nice expanse of unadorned crust around the edge -- my favorite part, as I remarked a number of times. What I really prefer, and what one finds in a good pizza Napulitana, is when the ingredients are applied so sparingly that there are expanses of bare crust throughout the pizza interspersed with a dab of tomato here, a piece of cheese there, a little sausage over there, etc. Michael remarked that he preferred a "tastier" pizza with a more emphatic flavor from the toppings, which puts him in the opposite camp from mine, but it's still a legitimate view to take. For me, as much as I enjoyed tasting the more extensively topped pizze we had (sausage and peppers, olives and onion), I felt that even the small addition of these ingredients tended to detract from the main event and the crust suffered somewhat in both execution and importance in the overall pizza. The plain margherita and the sausage pizze were, in my opinion, the stars of the afternoon.

While I am on the subject of crust, I'd like to point out one important benefit of a super hot, coal fired oven. If you look at the crust, you can see that the "oven spring" created by the hot oven floor "blew up" the little pockets of air in the dough at the same time it was crisping the bottom. This creates a small zone of flexible, extensible, soft crust between the crisp bottom and the toppings. The example below shows the edge of the crust where it is most apparent, but the same phenomenon is present throughout the crust to various degrees. Because the pizza cooks so quickly, this intermediate layer also retains a certain amount of moisture, which contributes to the morbidezza and flexibility of the crust. This is simply not possible in a gas oven. The pizza must cook a lot longer to achieve a crisp bottom, which means that most of the moisture is cooked out, and the lower temperature doesn't produce the same oven spring. The inevitable result is that that the intermediate layer is lacking, and along with it the contrast/complement effect of a pizza that is both crisp and soft, firm and flexible.

The other unique effect is the all-important char. For a crustophile like me, there is nothing like the smoky bitterness imparted by a slighty charred crust.

The ingredients are also cooked on the crust (i.e., the sausage is raw) by the intense heat, which causes their essential flavors to inhabit the entire pizza regardless of whether one is actually eating a bite of the olive, pepper or sausage.

For both of these things we have to thank Grimaldi's "sponsor" for this outing, Joe Bavuso. I was interested to see what the pizza would be like there, because I had heard a lot of mixed reviews about Grimaldi's -- especially about the crust, which some people said was great and others found fairly pedestrian. Well, as it turns out Joe learned something very important about Grimaldi's after going there a number of times: it's very important to go early while the oven is still really hot. As the lunch or dinner hour moves on the oven begins to give up its heat and the crusts start to suffer. Perhaps this has to do with their practice of firing the oven only half an hour before service and only stoking it significantly once a day, right before dinner? Or maybe the oven itself is simply not all that massive and doesn't hold all that much heat? Regardless, it would seem that it's crucial to go for an early lunch or dinner in order to catch the oven while it is still at maximum heat.

All in all this was a fun trip, and an interesting one. I think we should probably hit Patsy's in East Harlem next, since the two establishments are so closely linked (they even detail the lawsuit on the placemats!).

[picaman]

For me, the best pizza is all about the crust and the other toppings are there to complement the crust.

I couldn't agree more, except I'd substitute the word "minimal" for "other."

Fascinating post--you articulated very well and with fascinating detail the reasons (most of which I guess I knew more subconsciously than consciously! ) why I prefer pizza crusts from coal-fired ovens.

Of particular interest to me was JosephB's observation about the importance of arriving when the oven is at peak heat. Definitely a crucial detail to note. And as far as the attitude, I agree that one can't blame them much. They have a hard job to do, and I'm sure they want to do it as expeditiously as possible.

So to boil all your information down, it's margherita at noon, with a small side of attitude

Jamie

[slkinsey]

Fascinating post--you articulated very well and with fascinating detail the reasons (most of which I guess I knew more subconsciously than consciously!  ) why I prefer pizza crusts from coal-fired ovens.

Thanks! Perhaps we can persuade you to join us for the next outing? Don't make me e-twist your virtual arm, now.

One project that might pique your coal oven interest is my thought of doing a "Patsy's tour" once we've hit the Big 5. I think it would be enlightening to start off at Patsy's in East Harlem to have just enough pizza for everyone to have one slice and then proceed directly to some of the other coal-oven Patsy's establishments, like the one on the UWS, for similar samplings. This way we could see how the quality of the pizza changes in less expert hands as well as which desirable elements of the "coal oven effect" are still apparent and to what extent, while keeping the technology and quality of ingredients more or less the same.

[TrishCT]

Sam,

You did a great job explaining a certain type of pizza crust! I tend to call this type "bread like" because it has that intermediate soft layer not found in a thin crispier crust, reminiscent of fresh baked bread. This is the type I happen to prefer as well.

I also like a fresh tasting tomato (as opposed to strongly seasoned) sauce which does not overpower and mask the pizza. At Antico Forno in Boston's North End, we had a pizza like that recently. It was further enhanced by melt in your mouth buffalo mozzarella. Check it out if you're up that way.

[picaman]

One project that might pique your coal oven interest is my thought of doing a "Patsy's tour" once we've hit the Big 5.

Ow!

I'm up for that. Per JosephB's observation, it's a good idea to have the tour start with a hot opening-time oven in East Harlem, to give the best benchmark slice possible.

What's next on your top five list?

Jamie

[slkinsey]

What's next on your top five list?

The "Big 5" are:

Di Fara (done)

Grimaldi's (done)

Lombardi's

Patsy's East Harlem

Totonno's Coney Island

So far, I think we seem to be in agreement that it would be more fun to wait until it's warmer to hit Totonno's, since that offers us the chance to explore Coney Island after lunch and maybe head over to Brighton Beach for a Russian dinner after working off the pizza. That leaves Lombardi's and Patsy's. I'm think it would be interesting to visit Patsy's next, because of the connection between Patsy's and Grimaldi's. But if someone really wants to do Lombardi's first, I'm hip to that too. Especially if we have someone who has been there a lot, knows the ropes and would be willing/able to lead the group like Joe did so ably with Grimaldi's.

Really, although I made the first post and have blabbered on about a few of my pet topics, I don't really want anyone to be "in charge" of this -- least of all me. That's why I like the idea of different people "sponsoring" the pizzerie with which they are familiar and think are worthy of note, and taking the lead in this thread by organizing a trip. Joe's experience at Grimaldi's really demonstrates how valuable it is to have the inside scoop. If I had been putting that trip together we might have gone at 2:00 or something, and the result would have been very different.

[picaman]

Totonno's Coney Island

This is the place I'm most familiar with, as we always go there before Brooklyn Cyclones games. If there are any baseball fans out there, this is a great inexpensive summertime evening. I'll stick my hand up to help out with the Totonno's visit if necessary when the time comes.

As for next, either Lombardi's and Patsy's sound good to me--there is a logic in going to Patsy's having just gone to Grimaldi's.

Jamie

[jogoode]

Because the pizza cooks so quickly, this intermediate layer also retains a certain amount of moisture, which contributes to the morbidezza and flexibility of the crust. This is simply not possible in a gas oven.

Awesome analysis, Sam. Do you know how hot their oven gets? It might be interesting to compare oven temperatures of Grimaldi's and DiFara's, because they each exemplify two very different crusts and oven temperature, based on your explanation, is most likely the cause.

[slkinsey]

The observed difference in the crust is 90% due to the difference in temperature, if not more. Grimaldi's says that their oven is at 850F, and I have to believe that it's even higher than that in early on in the cycle. Before they started doing pizze, they roasted an entire full sheet pan of red peppers stacked upright (around 2 cases of peppers) in around 2 minutes. You can see the peppers in my one shot of the oven:

In contrast, this brand new stainless gas-fired oven specifies a thermostat that goes up to a maximum of 650F, which means that the temperature is never expected to actually go that high. Given the age and general decrepitude of Di Fara's oven, and the time it takes to bake a pizza (which is longer than it takes me to do in my "Crapmaster 5000" residential stove), I would imagine the oven temperature there is closer to 500F.

There are certainly some small differences in the dough between the two pizzerie, undoubtedly optimized for the resources and philosophies of the respective pizzaioli. But fundamentally, they are starting with fairly similar doughs and I think the Di Fara dough would be very different were it baked in Grimaldi's oven.

[woodburner]

I'm wondering, in contemplation of the "coal" comment.  Is this lump charcoal, I assume it is.

Nope, it's the mined fossil fuel variety rather than coarcoal, which is made by burning wood in a low oxygen environment. Probably anthracite coal, as I assume bituminous would burn too dirty. They burn the stuff right in the oven where the pizze are made.

Ok, but..

this certainly needs more explanation. As most anthracite coal is mixed with different additives to make stuff like Kingsford, which never burns very hot.

I'll look around, but accept your explanation, for now.

The kind of coal they use in NYC coal-fired ovens is the exact same kind of coal people used to use to heat their houses. Big, shiny, black rocks the size of an extra-large russett potato. Looks like this It is definitely not charcoal.

According to The Clean Coal Technology Compendium, anthracite coal burns very hot.

[Anthracite coal is] a hard, black lustrous coal, often referred to as hard coal, containing a high percentage of fixed carbon and low percentage of volatile matter. coal, found deep in the earth. It burns very hot, with little flame. It usually has a heating value of 12,000-15,000 British thermal units (Btus) per pound.  (Emphasis mine.)

Thanks for the education. I never would have thought anyone used straight anthracite, for oven heating.

You all did a superb job.

woodburner

[docsconz]

It's things like this that sometimes make me wish I was still living in NYC! I'll have to make it to Grimaldi's sometime in the near future and hopefully I can join at least one of these forays sometime. Work has been especially busy for me of late and unfortunately shows little sign of slowing up. Perhaps in May I could join a trip to Totonno's in Coney Island.

Anyone know what kind of tomatoes they used in Grimaldi's and DiFara's? IMO, the quality of the tomatoes is one of the most important elements of a good pizza and one of the elements that really sets apart good Neapolitan pizze. Campania simply grows the most flavorful tomatoes in the world. I recently had a pasta served with EVOO, S&P and "pomodorini del Vesuvio", a special tomato (jarred) that brought back from Campania purchased at the Slow Food Congress. It was simply amazing.

[JosephB]

It's things like this that sometimes make me wish I was still living in NYC! I'll have to make it to Grimaldi's sometime in the near future and hopefully I can join at least one of these forays sometime. Work has been especially busy for me of late and unfortunately shows little sign of slowing up. Perhaps in May I could join a trip to Totonno's in Coney Island.

Anyone know what kind of tomatoes they used in Grimaldi's and DiFara's? IMO, the quality of the tomatoes is one of the most important elements of a good pizza and one of the elements that really sets apart good Neapolitan pizze. Campania simply grows the most flavorful tomatoes in the world. I recently had a pasta served with EVOO, S&P and "pomodorini del Vesuvio", a special tomato (jarred) that brought back from Campania purchased at the Slow Food Congress. It was simply amazing.

Doc,

It would be a real treat if we could go back to Grimaldi's or Totonno together. I'm sure we'll get to do that soon enough.

Next time I'm at Grimaldi's I'll ask them about the tomatoes and cheese. Based on my experience, I don't expect to find out exactly what they're using, but they may be willing to tell me whether the tomatoes are San Marzano, etc.

[woodburner]

While pictures of the oven were frowned upon, do any of you have some knowledge on how these coal ovens, actually operate?

Are they stoked from the cooking area, or downstairs where the coal is kept? Does the oven have baffles, is the heat directly below the pizza, or is it offset?

once again, fascinating pictures and dialect

woodburner

[wannabechef]

Hey everyone..wanted to throw my .02 in. I wasn't at this trip but my friend and I have been doing some Grimaldi's - Totonno's comparison lately since I consider them to be extremely similar. We both agreed that Totonno's far outshines Grimaldi's. In fact, I think Grimaldi's is one of the more overrated pizza joints in the city- in the fresh-moz/coal oven league at least. My main complaint was about the crust. The posting above with the detailed crust explanation by slkinsey was great!

I pose a question though: What factor(s) cause the crust to keep a good consistency as the pie cools? My biggest complaint at Grimaldi's was that after a few minutes, the crust had a cardboard-like texture. It was so hard and chewy after a while that it ruined the experience for me. I noticed this even more so at Lombardi's (which I think has gone TOTALLY downhill). The crust at Totonnos and Nicks in Forest Hills kept an amazing texture even after sitting for 10-15 minutes.

Overall I think Totonnos beats Grimaldi's. I think Nicks is right up there though. Grimaldis being one of the most overrated, and Nicks the most underrated. I see Grimaldi's as the pizza joint people like to say is the best, when in fact they haven't really ventured far enough out into the boros to have an educated opinion.

I rate the "big 6" coal-oven/fresh moz. pies that I'VE been to:

1. Totonnos

2. Nicks

3. Grimaldis

4. Johns

5. Arturos

6. Lombardis

IMO, DiFaras is in a whole other tier on its own which can't be legimately compared to these. Same goes for Sullivan St. Bakery. It's just a different animal.

P.S. slkinsey - I REALLY recomend you add Nicks to the BIG 5 list! It's right up there with the rest of 'em!

[JosephB]

I pose a question though: What factor(s) cause the crust to keep a good consistency as the pie cools? My biggest complaint at Grimaldi's was that after a few minutes, the crust had a cardboard-like texture. It was so hard and chewy after a while that it ruined the experience for me.

Based on what's been said above, you can't be talking about the same Grimaldi's. Or perhaps you went there at an off time, like 4:00pm, when the oven was cooling down and the pizza maker had to resort to dough straight out of the fridge. I think that combination could result in what you described, but it wouldn't be typical of Grimaldi's pizza.

[slkinsey]

I rate the "big 6" coal-oven/fresh moz. pies that I'VE been to:

1. Totonno's

2. Nick's

3. Grimaldi's

4. John's

5. Arturo's

6. Lombardi's

You haven't been to Patsy's in East Harlem, I gather? That is the place which is generally regarded as the clear #1 (although we will naturally make up our own minds). Of course, the beauty of the whole thing is that we'll never all agree on what we like best. For example, as much as he enjoyed Grimaldi's and can appreciate some of the unique effects, Pan still prefers Di Fara. And why not? Di Fara is a great pizzeria. What's not to like?

As I remember them, Arturo's and especially John's are both pretty lame, but I do hear good things about Nick's. Needless to say, all these places will be visited. The Big 5 are the Big 5 by virtue of their reputations, pedigrees and histories. I don't think Nick's is quite there yet. This doesn't mean, of course, that it might not be better than some of the Big 5 pizzerie. We might have an eGullet 5 by the time we're finished. That's for us to discover! I hope that you are sufficiently motivated by your fondness for Nick's to leads us on an excursion out there in the future.

[wannabechef]

You haven't been to Patsy's in East Harlem, I gather?  That is the place which is generally regarded as the clear #1 (although we will naturally make up our own minds).  Of course, the beauty of the whole thing is that we'll never all agree on what we like best. 

Totally right! We'll never all agree but to each their own and nobody is wrong. I agree about Nicks though. It doesn't have the tradition or reputation that the other big 5 have - but still worth a try. I also have to get to Patsy's. Guess I'll have to put off my low-carb diet another week!

P.S. On Ch. 11 news just now they were live at DiFara's! Apparently he was rated best pizza in NYC by WB 11 viewers. It was pretty classic - the place was packed with kids and I've never seen Dom move so fast.

[wannabechef]

I pose a question though: What factor(s) cause the crust to keep a good consistency as the pie cools? My biggest complaint at Grimaldi's was that after a few minutes, the crust had a cardboard-like texture. It was so hard and chewy after a while that it ruined the experience for me.

Based on what's been said above, you can't be talking about the same Grimaldi's. Or perhaps you went there at an off time, like 4:00pm, when the oven was cooling down and the pizza maker had to resort to dough straight out of the fridge. I think that combination could result in what you described, but it wouldn't be typical of Grimaldi's pizza.

Hmmm... I was there at a later time - around 10:30 I think. Could that have been it? I'm definately always up for giving it another shot! I'll say though, it wasn't the first time I was dissapointed there. I had the same problem once before but I dont' remember what time it was then.

[JosephB]

I pose a question though: What factor(s) cause the crust to keep a good consistency as the pie cools? My biggest complaint at Grimaldi's was that after a few minutes, the crust had a cardboard-like texture. It was so hard and chewy after a while that it ruined the experience for me.

Based on what's been said above, you can't be talking about the same Grimaldi's. Or perhaps you went there at an off time, like 4:00pm, when the oven was cooling down and the pizza maker had to resort to dough straight out of the fridge. I think that combination could result in what you described, but it wouldn't be typical of Grimaldi's pizza.

Hmmm... I was there at a later time - around 10:30 I think. Could that have been it? I'm definately always up for giving it another shot! I'll say though, it wasn't the first time I was dissapointed there. I had the same problem once before but I dont' remember what time it was then.

OK, let's make a point of going yo Grimaldi's together.

[slkinsey]

All these places rcan stand a certain number of repeat visits, IMO.

wannabechef, given your passion for pizza, we'll be very disappointed if you don't come with us for the next outing.

[wannabechef]

All these places rcan stand a certain number of repeat visits, IMO.

wannabechef, given your passion for pizza, we'll be very disappointed if you don't come with us for the next outing.

Heh - ok! I'll make it a point to try and make it to the next one - I'll try to bring my pizza-partner as well, who's even more serious about it than I. If I have time I'll post our breakdown of NYC pizza tiers. We developed a whole method of judging and comparing establishments. e.g. You can't compare a Famous Ray's to DiFaras, etc. They're just different leagues. Everywhere we go we only get the plain pie because it's requried at least as a benchmark. I think it's a good pie when I can't decide which element is the best - cheese, crust or sauce. At both Nick's and Totonno's, I kept going back and forth.

It's tough to decide how ambiance comes into play also. I think it's really all about the pie, but ambiance and experience definately deserves mention.

A few weeks ago my friend and I wen to DiFaras, had a pie - and then decided to drive directly to Totonnos where we had another. Ok, we're crazy.

~WBC

[slkinsey]

A few weeks ago my friend and I wen to DiFaras, had a pie - and then decided to drive directly to Totonnos where we had another. Ok, we're crazy.

Now that's what I'm talking about! And they said it was crazy to visit the Patsy's branches in one afternoon. Hah!

[JosephB]

I pose a question though: What factor(s) cause the crust to keep a good consistency as the pie cools? My biggest complaint at Grimaldi's was that after a few minutes, the crust had a cardboard-like texture. It was so hard and chewy after a while that it ruined the experience for me.

Based on what's been said above, you can't be talking about the same Grimaldi's. Or perhaps you went there at an off time, like 4:00pm, when the oven was cooling down and the pizza maker had to resort to dough straight out of the fridge. I think that combination could result in what you described, but it wouldn't be typical of Grimaldi's pizza.

Hmmm... I was there at a later time - around 10:30 I think. Could that have been it? I'm definately always up for giving it another shot! I'll say though, it wasn't the first time I was dissapointed there. I had the same problem once before but I dont' remember what time it was then.

Here's the Video Feed to the WB11 story about Di Fara.