Story of Varmint's Kitchen Renovation

[fresco]

It sounds like they are high balling you on the price because it is such an unpleasant job. Still, $4,000 to remove the tile...

[Dave the Cook]

So Art, what do you want to do the job?

[Varmint]

I know that's a bit high, but those who have seen my kitchen might understand the complexity. My cupboards have about an inch of toe kick space. If there were the standard 3-4 inches, it would be less of a problem. God, I hate my kitchen.

[fresco]

$6,000 and I'm there. But that's just for the tile.

I've probably renovated a couple of dozen kitchens or more over the years and hired all sorts of trades and unskilled types. But that quote floors me.

[Varmint]

Dave, please describe how fucked up my kitchen is. I'm not doing a good job conveying my frustration.

[Dave the Cook]

I do remember the bottoms of the cabinets were really low. I didn't look that closely, though -- does the tile stop at the cabinets, or do the cabinets sit on top of it? Must be the former, right?

[theclash]

give everyone who comes to the pasta fest some tools

[Marlene]

Yeah me too. There is no way, even with the uniqueness of your kitchen that it should be that high. I had a few strange things in my kitchen and when they took out the tile in the kitchen and the sunroom, it was $800 to remove the tile. And I had a lot of it! My cupboards also had a higher than normal kickplate. I've seen your kitchen remember? And I still say no way.

[fresco]

I also understand the need to keep to a budget. But if you are going to be living in this house for a good long while, be sure that what you are doing now is not a compromise that you won't like in a year or two.

And apologies for adding to your frustration.

[Mayhaw Man]

Why can't you use leveling compound just as you would on a rough uneven surface (which, broadly, is what a tiled surface consists of) and lay the vinyl squares on that. You would be adding very little height to the floor (at least not enough to get in the way of your cabinets).

Of course, I don't know if that would be good technique and it would certainly make more to remove when you really do tear out the floor, but it might work pretty well for now.

[fresco]

If he has a one inch toe kick now, adding levelling compound and vinyl may not be a great idea.

[Dave the Cook]

Dave, please describe how fucked up my kitchen is.  I'm not doing a good job conveying my frustration.

The maze of flame-tiled countertops; the astounding discovery of the hidden dishwasher and how its door so cunningly interlocks with the lower oven door; the clever but virtually unreachable upper cabinetry; and the idea that someone uses this kitchen to turn out great food night after night (as I know for a fact Varmint does) -- these things combine to completely distract one from the floor issue, I'm afraid. I don't even remember what color it is.

[Varmint]

OK, lots of pictures to come tonight. The floor is brown.

[woodburner]

It is possible to remove the old tile and scrape (and bang) the floor mix off the plywood. But it is an awful, tedious job. You don't want to do it yourself or pay a skilled tradesperson to do it. If your contractor has or knows someone who is unskilled but hardworking and will do it for a couple of hundred bucks it may be worth it.

Two years ago, I removed the entire floor from my kitchen. I started January 2, and finished March 5. I removed 7 layers of flooring, three coats of paint, and ended up finding the original circa 1863, 6" wide heartpine flooring. I never would have been able to find anyone in their right mind to do what I did, nor afford it.

When I finally got it all to the transfer station, the flooring material's weighted in over 2100 pounds.

I'm really glad I did it, but I would never, do it again.

I feel for you.

woodburner

[Varmint]

And by the way, to further complicate matters, it appears that the cupboards were built on top of the plywood floor, and the remainder of the floor was built up from that. What this implies is that if I remove a cupboard or two, I'll just have to build up whatever floor there is and create a transitional.

This is another reason why I started this thread in the first place!!

[Marlene]

You could just move

[Varmint]

If I totally gutted the kitchen, moved a couple of walls, I could do the entire kitchen for 40K. Right now, I have an appliance budget of about 8K. If I do a stop-gap solution, then I don't want to spend much more than 6-8K to do a temporary solution. Yeah, it's a stupid way to do things. But if that temp solution isn't feasible, then I'll wait.

[Mottmott]

About eight  years ago I purchased my first house - a tiny (650 sq feet) one story place built partly on wooden pier foundation with crawlspace, partly on block foundation, a rear laundry room on a slab and a "utility room" with a dirt floor.  I wanted to gut it, add a second story, open up the first floor space and completely rebuild all but the shell.  The first two contractors advise me to get a bulldozer and knock it down. I got lucky on the third guy - he was young, newly in business for himself and shared my vision. I did the bulk of the detail work and all the demolition but by acting as my own general contractor I save a bundle of money and made the project work. This approach is not suitable for everyone nor do they have the skills, time or flexibility  to do it but it worked for me.

I went low end on all but the cabinets as I knew  I would resell the house. I knew what price the neighborhood would support I did resell it two years later and eked out a small profit despite a sagging reals estate market at the time). Even the cabinets I got at a steal by waiting for the right sale.  I'm including some pics here just to stimulate discussion (pics aren't too great - it was pre-digital camera era for me).  The kitchen and rest of the house were not completely finished but the overall plan is visible.

First I took what was a confined and boxy space and opened it up by putting in 2x10 headers to eliminate the  two load bearing walls at the front and back of the kitchen where it previously had doors into the laundry room and rather cramped dining room. Note that on the header face towards the front end of the kitchen (above the peninsula),  I put multiple  small cabinets that are originally designed to go above a refrigerator. They weren't terribly convenient but were perfect for those rarely used items that still need to be in the kitchen. They did  wonderful job of covering the header and visually pulling together that space with the rest of the kitchen. I also put an angled cabinet in the 90 degree corner where the small cabinets met the rest of the kitchen, a butcher block counter top between the stove and refrigerator and had the under the peninsula  cabinet equipped with rollouts for pots 'n pans.  I bought a conventional cabinet with rollouts and hired a very competent part time cabinet maker to farbicate a false door for the back side of the peninsual cabinet (where it faced the dining room - that's the room in the pic with the black chair in it). He also built me a maple front panel and a curved center support for the side of the peninsula cabinet, which was now under the peninsula overhang (where the stools are in the pic). I did the finishing myself with Minwax "Wipe-On Poly" and the finish was indistinguishable from a factory finish. That tactic alone (fabricating the peninsula cabinet myself) saved hundreds of $$.

Despite the relatively small space, this was a really easy kitchen to work in. Friends who visited were just wowed and loved it plus the open space in front and behind gave people a place to hang out when I cooked.  The butcher block top was the only feature that really didn't get used - the space was too cramped and I ended up doing my cutting on a block set on the peninsula.

Look around for novel ways to save money. I knew I needed to have formica counters due to the cost factor but I wanted a maple beveled bullnose edge. The counter shops charge about $3 per linear for for this feature. After inquiring, I discovered that the price is so high because they must wait until evening hours when there's no production dust in the air before they can aply the coatings. I got mine unfinished at about 85 cents per linear foot and finished them myself after installation with careful taping and Minwax "Wipe-On Poly" (a miracle product if ever there was one).

A smart use of space to achieve a very good result, Owen. And your opening up that space really makes a difference as does having that wooden floor. Also, I love the way you've used rugs in the kitchen space. I'm a messy cook, so I keep washable cotton rugs in my kitchen so I can just toss them in the washer. It's practical, easy on the feet, and attractive.

Dean, for your floor problem. Either use scatter rugs or get a keg, a bunch of sledgehammers, and invite your friends over. $4000 to lift the old floor?

If you life allows it at all, just hiring subs can make a difference. I've done my own kitchen, though I haven't completed my "punch sheet" and have some odds and ends to finish (which I've postponed while my son's family are still living here).

Also, take note of Owen's pointing out the importance of keeping your kitchen renovation in line with the ultimate resale value of your house unless you intend never to move.

[robyn]

Marlene, if you can't recall my monstrosity of a kitchen, I need to remind you that sketching it out isn't really for someone like me.  This isn't just a matter of taking a nice rectangular space and putting stuff where you want.  It involves load bearing walls in strange places, steel I-beams that get in the way, ugly tile flooring that has over an inch of substrata, and other quirks that just ain't right!

I'm pretty good at kitchens (I've done 2 complete renovations and designed one from scratch in my current house - which I built). I suspect a lot of other people here are pretty good at kitchens too.

On my part - I can tell you that you simply can't spend too much time sketching things out - both what you have now - and what you think you want. It is especially important in those sketches to locate those load bearing walls - and the plumbing - and the electric (and to make sure the electric is sufficient) - etc. If you don't have the competence to locate things like plumbing and electrical connections - find someone who can. It is much easier (and incredibly cheaper) to move a proposed sink 6 inches to the left than to move the plumbing to which it's supposed to be connected (particularly if your contractor didn't have a clue when he started that the plumbing would have to be moved).

If you are thinking of putting in a hood that has to be vented through the attic - have someone go up in the attic to check what's there. If you are thinking of commercial appliances - check the walls for any necessary fireproofing. Etc. In other words - strip your place to basics mentally before you do anything.

Note that this is especially important in view of your time contraints (you want to measure 5 times - cut once). No matter how careful you are - you will undoubtedly run into something unexpected with a renovation (it could be something like termites you didn't know you had!). But you can reduce the risks of total trauma by doing as much planning as possible.

So start sketching. When I see what kind of space you're dealing with - I'll probably have some ideas.

By the way - I am kind of unclear on your floor situation. The tile is over a substrata that's over what? Is your foundation monolithic concrete? Or is it wood over a crawl space? Or something else? How old is the house? Robyn

[Nick]

It might be easier to tear out the whole kitchen and start fresh.

[fresco]

Given that the proposed budget for a compromise is $20,000 vs $40,000 to gut and do everything properly, I agree.

[robyn]

Just my two cents:

I have two good friends who used cork floors. One had terrible staining of the floor post installation and it seems that they were not properly sealed. Moisture (either ambient or from cleaning) penetrated the cork and changed the color making it appear muddy. This household were not heavy users of their kitchen so I can't comment about wear. Their floor went in about 10 years ago.

Second friend has had a cork floor for about three years and loves it. The floor was laid as square tiles (similar to denise_jer's) by a professional and then sealed with two coats of specially formulated sealant. Again, this woman is not a heavy user of her kitchen, but there has not been a stain to speak of and she commented about how many fewer things have broken on the cork floor (she used to have ceramic tile).

I'm left thinking that cork is a reasonable choice and very comfortable but be sure to do your homework about getting the proper sealant.

Have you thought of using real, old-school linoleum? I would think it would have similar resiliancy to cork but may not be as susceptible to moisture absorption (less movement and less chance of staining).

(Nice blog by the way. Vicarious living for all of us.)

I have "old school" linoleum (although it is new and expensive and imported from Europe - Forbo Marmoleum). It is very pretty - very easy on the feet after hours in front of the stove - and an absolute pain in terms of maintenance. Before I installed it - I didn't know how soft linoleum was - and how easily it scuffs. So what you have to do is seal it with a couple of coats of wax - and then strip it to get the scuffs out - and then reapply the wax. I only strip it about twice a year - but my husband and I don't have kids or pets - and I normally walk around the house in socks or bare feet. I can't imagine how much waxing the floor would need if you walked on it regularly in heels - or had kids of pets.

Note that in terms of spills and the like - there's no problem at all. It damp mops beautifully. It's the major maintenance that's time-consuming.

By the way - I have a housekeeper - but I'm the one who winds up doing this floor because it takes a very long time to strip it and have the coats of wax dry. There's no way to get anything else in the house done when kitchen floor maintenance is "in progress".

I liked my previous floor covering better. Vinyl tiles with circles made to look like commercial rubber flooring. The vinyl required a lot less maintenance than the rubber - which requires industrial buffing. Unfortunately the product line I liked was discontinued before I did this kitchen. Robyn

[Chad]

I can't imagine how much waxing the floor would need if you walked on it regularly in heels . . .

Hmm, this might be a problem. Varmint are you willing to take your heels off in the kitchen?

By the way, have you considered a couple of surplus hand grenades? Even with the ATF fines, you'd still come out cheaper.

Chad

[marie-louise]

It might be easier to tear out the whole kitchen and start fresh.

That's something to consider. Get a master plan drawn up (perhaps an architect, not a kitchen designer, is what your need), spend some $ tearing everything out, buy the stove of your dreams, and get a couple of cheap worktables to use as countertops until you can afford cabinets. Store everything in your pantry or on a couple of cheap bookshelves.

[Varmint]

OK, I'll try to describe the kitchen with the aid of pictures. I did this quickly, so photo quality may suck. Also, I didn't clean up one bit, so the kitchen's a mess.

Here's a view of the entrance to the kitchen from the outside doorway (I took this standing in my pantry). Note the compactor and broken built in Jenn-Air grill.

Walk 3 steps forward, turn slightly to the left, and look down the hall, where you'll see a two marble work surfaces, a wet bar, and the hall housing the fridge.

This is a closer up view of the compactor and grill:

Just before you reach the compactor, turn 90 degrees to the left, and you'll see my wall ovens. Look at the large, white marble slab on the right of the picture. Under that is the dishwasher.

Walk to the white marble slab, turn 45 degrees to the left, and you'll see the bar counter where the L'il Varmints eat their breakfast.

Turn slightly left again to see the cooktop. Notice how little space there is between the cooktop and the cabinets.

Turn around 180 degrees, and look back across the marble slabs and down the hallway with the fridge, freezer and wet bar.

Here's a closer view of the Sub-Zeros and the wet bar.

Walk down the hallway past the Sub Zeros into the laundry room, turn back around 180 degrees, and here's a view down that hallway back towards the marble slabs, the ovens, and the cooktop area. Notice the cabinets up high.

Walk forward 4 steps, and here's the same view, closer up:

OK, forget all the directions. Here's a view of the kitchen from the living room, looking across the bar counter area, towards the cooktop.

Here's a view of the oven-dishwasher-marble counter megaplex.

This is our floor. This photo makes the tile look a lot better than it really is.

This shot is to give you an idea of the amount of the toe kick space.

Carry on.