Real, authentic, thai food

[Pan]

For me the real test is, is the modified cuisine as good as or better than good versions thereof in its home country. If the answer is no, I object. And the answer is usually no, which is also why I take a dim view of what is usually called "fusion" in the U.S. but recognize that certain types of fusions like Thai Chinese and Malaysian Chinese food are spectacular. And naturally, adding hot pepper to Thai food a few centuries ago wasn't a bad thing.

[QuinaQuen]

Of course, that depends on the region.  Some Indian food is damned firery.

According to his scale, Indian food would normally get one to five stars, depending on how a particular dish ought to be made. These patrons would request fifty stars.

I'll confess to the same peccadillo, though without apologizing. Undeniable gueroness triggers such abysmal of blanditude in so many establishments that...

In other words, it's hard to get waiters and cooks to take you seriously when you ask for the onthafurealla' good stuff. When I'm taken seriously, I go for the gusto. The restaurants that take me at my word get repeat business, the ones who do not get shined.

If a Korean joint actually serves me the raw skate wing in chili sauce, they gain my continued business. If a Thai restaurant tries to kill me with capsaicin, there goes the rent check. And each time, the temptation to go further is irresistable. Call it a combination of machismo, elitism, and plain old endorphin addiction. Chef Pym almost killed me once with an absurdly-spiced Yum Pla Muk, but a cook who will accept a challenge will also accept a respectful capitulation.

Besides, capsaicin is the ultimate flavor enhancer once you develop a certain immunity. Report back to me when you are able to discern apricot-tinged habaneros from nectarinified scotch bonnets.

[QuinaQuen]

For me the real test is, is the modified cuisine as good as or better than good versions thereof in its home country. If the answer is no, I object. And the answer is usually no, which is also why I take a dim view of what is usually called "fusion" in the U.S. but recognize that certain types of fusions like Thai Chinese and Malaysian Chinese food are spectacular. And naturally, adding hot pepper to Thai food a few centuries ago wasn't a bad thing.

Fair enough. And 99.9% of Thai joints in this country are simply laying down bull@#$%. Just don't dismiss a dish because it's obviously unfamiliar or inauthentic.

[QuinaQuen]

Are bell peppers really cheap in the U.S., and is that why they are used so often (and mentioned so seldom in the menu) in Thai, Chinese, and Vietnamese restaurants in the U.S.? I wish they'd stop!

Yeah, they are cheap. Big Bloo is curretly selling them for about 30 cents a pound, with about 9% schwag. Thing is, jalapenos are only 2-3 cents more expensive, and that's with far less waste. The schwag percentage goes down with serranos and still more with frutescens varieties like arbol, thai, and mirasol.

In other words, it's not really the bottom line at issue here. To paraphrase Walker Percy, bells are "as strong as meat." They offer a certain depth attached to undeniable bulk. There can't possibly be a region where they're the only pepper available, so it must be their inherent tastiness when prepared properly.

What I want to see? a juegon some roasted and peeled poblanos in a Thai dish. Let it come full circle, baby!

[Pan]

What do you mean by "schwag"?

[QuinaQuen]

"When your talking about "Indian Food" your going into a totally different type of heat. Again much of this has to do with the influence of the Spice Traders that may have some relationship for the assumption that the hottest food on the Indian Continent comes from Goa.

Again in India the cheapest food also is often the hottest as hot covers other shortcomings especially in hawker type street foods of questionable origins. "

Irwin,

Respectfully beg to disagree on both points. First, how "typical" American tastes encounter spiciness/richness in Indian food has something to do with how much of the starch and other accompaniments are consumed with the food.  An Indian will typically use an larger quantity of rice/bread etc. as vehicle, plus combine it continuously with an array of accompaniments such as dal/pulse dishes, yogurt, salads, lime juice/pickles in ways most Americans do not, and the palette of flavors brought out by Indian meals differ, in many instances, for the two groups.

Goan food is not all that hot; the vindaloo propelled into 'heat' fame/notoriety by British curry houses has little to do with Goan vindaloo, save the name.  If you go slightly south of Goa, and try the Udupi cooking of the Shetty community, that is talking about absolute hotness. Again, in kerala, heat levels vary by community/caste, ditto Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh.

Street hawker food that I have experienced rarely touches heat levels; its quality may or may not be acceptable, but most street food catered originally to particular communities/castes, and it is very difficult to agree with your conclusions.

I do not dispute solely for disputation's sake, but I am very concerned with the alrady large burden of mythmaking that is India's lot in too many walks of life, and i view with particular dismay, for example, Raymond Sokolov's or Copeland marks's self-styled expertise.  The former has sid some ridiculous things aabout Indian fried breads for instance, based on ignorance.  Anyway, i hope  to continue learning from you, and so that your columns can serve as a source of authentic information, venture this post.  regards, gautam

A sweet reply, brotherman. My folks in Kerala would heartily agree, were they not part and parcel with the slightly disturbing neo-raj that has been going on since the early 70s. Is George Harrison @#$ dead yet?

1,000 apologies, but I have not yet encountered even the faintest traces of heat in any Indian food. Any region. Any dialect. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but Houston has the largest Indian population in the nation.

However, I have been knocked over by excesses of cardamom. And turmeric. And cumin. Why compete for capsaicin supremacy when only the Thais can offer a lovelier canon of different spices? Maybe I'm missing something, but from the Bay of Bengal to the Chinese border, only Mexico can offer such a wild variety of cuisines as India has been dishing out for thousands of years. Only the British could consider it hot enough for distinction.

[QuinaQuen]

What do you mean by "schwag"?

Wasted parts, like the placenta and stem. Potheads might not be good for much, but they did come up with a good term for wasted vegetation.

[Pan]

Thanks.

Can you please clarify your remarks about heat in Indian food? Are you saying that no Indian food you've ever had has had any palpable trace of hot pepper? I doubt it. What did you mean, then?

[ExtraMSG]

For me the real test is, is the modified cuisine as good as or better than good versions thereof in its home country. If the answer is no, I object. And the answer is usually no, which is also why I take a dim view of what is usually called "fusion" in the U.S. but recognize that certain types of fusions like Thai Chinese and Malaysian Chinese food are spectacular. And naturally, adding hot pepper to Thai food a few centuries ago wasn't a bad thing.

That's way too loaded, Pan. It's so contextual. If you just mean "to me", then sure, fine, okay.

But taste is largely a matter of custom. We become accustomed to flavors and combinations of flavors and over time train ourselves to like them, usually. Some people, like myself, are intrigued more than others by strange flavors. But many, maybe most, people feel assaulted by strange flavors. And unless they have real pressure on them will not train their palate.

My hypothesis is that the reason American food, not the regional varieties, but general American food is so bland or gains its flavor from the basics (sweet, sour, salty, msg, fatty/creamy -- avoiding bitter) is because these are our natural inclinations. Biologically, bitter was a warning method. The others were cues to what was good for us. American food is either non-offensive (ie, bland) or strongly flavored with the basics (eg, junk foods).

Americans are wealthy. We can afford to eat whatever we want and as much of it as we want. We're like porn addicts without a conscience dowloading gigs and gigs of naked women masturbating all day. But instead, it's junk food, burgers, soda, pasta, cream sauces, cheese, sweets, chocolate, etc.

I think fusion often takes what is unfamiliar and would normally be seen as an assault on the palate and makes it palatable to people who grew up on the food I describe above. Sweetened and blended wines would probably be a similar example. Maybe pale beers. Or Mexican-American food, Thai food in America, or Indian food in England and America.

I don't know that it's so clearly worse, though, than the original, just different. A lot of people love chicken Tikka Masala, peanut sauce on their pad thai, and nachos.

[Pan]

For me the real test is, is the modified cuisine as good as or better than good versions thereof in its home country. If the answer is no, I object. And the answer is usually no, which is also why I take a dim view of what is usually called "fusion" in the U.S. but recognize that certain types of fusions like Thai Chinese and Malaysian Chinese food are spectacular. And naturally, adding hot pepper to Thai food a few centuries ago wasn't a bad thing. 

That's way too loaded, Pan. It's so contextual. If you just mean "to me", then sure, fine, okay.

Note the "for me" in the beginning of the post.

I take it as a given that in matters of taste, words like "good" and "better" are always subjective. Don't you?

Further from ExtraMSG:

My hypothesis is that the reason American food, not the regional varieties, but general American food is so bland or gains its flavor from the basics (sweet, sour, salty, msg, fatty/creamy -- avoiding bitter) is because these are our natural inclinations. Biologically, bitter was a warning method. The others were cues to what was good for us. American food is either non-offensive (ie, bland) or strongly flavored with the basics (eg, junk foods).

First, I think it's hazardous and highly questionable to ascribe anything that's a difference between "American" food and some other cuisine to "natural inclinations." Secondly, the U.S. is a huge country encompassing many different styles of cooking.

Fact is, I did not grow up on lots of really bland food and nothing else, and if I had until the age of 10, my two years in a Malay village where people described food as "spicy" or "tasteless" would have disabused me of it.

I think fusion often takes what is unfamiliar and would normally be seen as an assault on the palate and makes it palatable to people who grew up on the food I describe above.

Which is precisely why I usually don't like it. To give one example, Vong in New York tastes like watered-down Thai food to me, and I'd rather have tastier, spicier food that costs a fraction of the cost on any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Others differ, which is why fusion has a niche. And that's a good thing for them.

[ExtraMSG]

Note the "for me" in the beginning of the post.

I take it as a given that in matters of taste, words like "good" and "better" are always subjective. Don't you?

Nope. Probably the most accurate would be something like "intersubjective". We share cultures, biology, experiences, history, and a language to share all of this with. Food is not purely subjective. It's a mistake to think of it as such. I'm a relativist, not a solipsist.

btw, I did note the "for me", but thought it referred to your method of judging not your judgment.

First, I think it's hazardous and highly questionable to ascribe anything that's a difference between "American" food and some other cuisine to "natural inclinations." Secondly, the U.S. is a huge country encompassing many different styles of cooking.

They're just generalizations. I purposely said to avoid regional cuisines. These are really anachronisms, I think, though. People talk of globalization, but at the same time there's a nationalization going on in America as well. We share more as a community now, including our food, than ever before. And in many respects these traditional regional cuisines are becoming lost crafts and secondary cuisines to the national cuisine comprised largely of fast food.

Fact is, I did not grow up on lots of really bland food and nothing else, and if I had until the age of 10, my two years in a Malay village where people described food as "spicy" or "tasteless" would have disabused me of it.

Yeah, but you're here as an active member of this website discussing the merits of authentic Thai food. You're not the mean, median, or mode.

Which is precisely why I usually don't like it. To give one example, Vong in New York tastes like watered-down Thai food to me, and I'd rather have tastier, spicier food that costs a fraction of the cost on any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Others differ, which is why fusion has a niche. And that's a good thing for them.

I can appreciate both styles. I've never been to Vong but from what I've seen of it, I imagine I'd really like it. We have some lower level places out here that fuse NW ingredients with Thai dishes. And often it works. There's a yellow curry at a place that uses granny smith apples that's just awesome. It's not like any curry I'd find somewhere else maybe, but its flavors would probably be acceptable to many people who've never had Thai.

Also with places that are actively trying to be haute fusion like Vong seems to be, I think there are other advantages (I bet you don't get rubbery meats, eg). My problem isn't that I think that places like it are better or worse than more authentic places, but rather than many of the mediocre ones all start to taste the same. Somehow, eg, Nuevo Latino or Latin fusion came to mean essentially spicy sweet and sour sauce on everything -- chiles and honey. I think it's more a case of crappy places giving the whole thing a bad name. You could do the same with Korean-Chinese, Tex-Mex, etc. But it's not like there isn't bad Chinese food in China or bad Mexican food in Mexico.