Real, authentic, thai food

[ExtraMSG]

I don't know, fifi. Even here in Portland, you can't throw a rock without hitting a Thai restaurant. It won't be long before there are more Thai places than Mexican or even pizza, and we have a lot of both. In my suburb of Portland (Vancouver, WA), I live no more than a mile from 4 Thai restaurants. Last night I had a mediocre green curry at one, my wife had a decent panang, and we shared a decent chicken larb. And if you've ever been through Thai town in LA.....

[Mabelline]

Ah, but fifi, once you've eaten, you are still in Billings!!

[Pan]

Ah, but fifi, once you've eaten, you are still in Billings!!

I've never been there, but that's funny, anyway.

[ExtraMSG]

Billings is like Arizona, but cold.

[Pan]

That's funny too, though I've never been to Arizona, either.

It's ironic and in some ways embarassing that I've travelled more widely in parts of Europe and Asia than the U.S.

But back to Thai food...

[phaelon56]

I've eaten at six Thai restaurants in NYC and two in nearby north Jersey.

Royal Siam on 9th Ave was the best of the bunch overall. Some folks swear by thje supposed authenticity of Pam's Real Thai at 9 and 49th but we had four entrees among us and two were below mediocre in quality.

Here in Syracuse it's actually a bit better - four restaurnats and two are pretty good, one being way above average. Bangkok Thai in nearby Liverpool (a suburb) actually offers 'Thai hot levels 1 through 5' as an option that is over and above (i.e. hotter) the "American mild, medium or hot" of the regular menu.

Also, their pad is not over sweet, unlike the pad I've had in many other places.

[ExtraMSG]

I've been having a similar conversation with a guy named Curt on Chowhound that some might be interested in taking a look at:

http://www.chowhound.com/pacificnw/boards/...ages/14292.html

[mb7o]

That's a good discussion on chowhound.

One of my thoughts on visting Thailand was that the food at Seattle restaurants was better than what I was eating in Thailand.

Don't know if it was familiarity, quality (the best restaurant in Seattle is certain to be better than a large swath of poor restaurants in Thailand), bad restaurant sense, or what. By the end of the trip I had the opposite mindset.

But new things do get introduced. Miang Kum is now in many restaurants here, almost certainly influenced by Typhoon. I found some on the street in Bangkok, and the people at the bar I ate it in were surprised I knew what it was.

[ExtraMSG]

I think it's likely that fusion of western techniques where appropriate with traditional Thai recipes is a very good thing and can improve the outcome. eg, I made a green curry not too long back and seared some flank steak to go with it. Left it medium rare with a nice crust. So tender and juicy and flavorful. So much better than how most Thai places make it where it's well done, often essentially boiled or stir fried and a bit rubbery with no maillard reaction.

I do think that people should be clear about what they want when talking about food, just like movie reviewers and music reviewers should be clear about their biases. If someone wants something authentic and was disappointed they should at least say that and attempt to judge the restaurant for what they were doing, eg, Americanized Thai.

[Pan]

Miang Kum may not have made it to New York. What is it?

[wesza]

Until I can actually have the opportunity to be blessed with the experience of eating genuine Thai Dishes compatable to that seved at the Thai Chicken or Seafood Restaurants or equal to Bangkok Street Food i'll keep to my assumption that there are few if any Thai professional chefs doing their thing that i've come across in my travels or experience in the States. It's true that we have some very good possables evolving especially in various location such as Federal Way, Tacoma and the Noodle Boat Restaurant located in Issaquah that are close to the Seattle area that are pretty good, but don't even attempt dishes like the special chicken dishes or other specialties. But i'll reinterate they are evolving, but there is to much customer pressure to make everything spicer or hotter then traditionally served in Thailand.

Irwin

Edited January 3, 2004 by wesza (log)

[fifi]

You are so right, Irwin. I think we are lucky to have some places in Houston that try to get it right. I had a chance to speak with my associate's wife (owners of Gourmet Thai here, she is Thai, I haven't been there yet but it is highly rated) at a social function and we had a conversation about the right balance. She, too complained that some of her clientelle want to turn up the heat thinking that is the authenitc experience. She tries to educate, she says. (I have to get to that place. )

[Pan]

Irwin and Linda:

Hotter than Thailand??? Wow, I'd have to experience that!

[Katherine]

I talked to a Pakistani running an Indian restaurant who said the same thing: certain wannabe sophisticated customers insist on the food being made uniformly blazingly inauthentically hot.

[ExtraMSG]

Of course, that depends on the region. Some Indian food is damned firery.

[Pan]

I can tell you that when I've asked people from Bangkok to make the food the way they like it and they've really believed me, it was almost inedibly hot - though I have to admit that I don't remember having trouble eating Thai food when I was in Bangkok. But I think the point is that there are regional variations in spiciness within Thailand.

[Katherine]

Of course, that depends on the region. Some Indian food is damned firery.

According to his scale, Indian food would normally get one to five stars, depending on how a particular dish ought to be made. These patrons would request fifty stars.

[Pan]

I bought my father a cookbook printed in India for Indians, I believe of Keralese cooking. The dishes typically call for large quantities of those really hot little green peppers. But one really takes the cake: A hot chili curry, with chili as the vegetable! The recipe called for something like 20 little red peppers and 13 little green peppers, plus assorted spices you might normally expect in a curry.

[Katherine]

I bought my father a cookbook printed in India for Indians, I believe of Keralese cooking. The dishes typically call for large quantities of those really hot little green peppers. But one really takes the cake: A hot chili curry, with chili as the vegetable! The recipe called for something like 20 little red peppers and 13 little green peppers, plus assorted spices you might normally expect in a curry.

Why does the song "Ring of Fire" come to mind here?

[wesza]

I bought my father a cookbook printed in India for Indians, I believe of Keralese cooking. The dishes typically call for large quantities of those really hot little green peppers. But one really takes the cake: A hot chili curry, with chili as the vegetable! The recipe called for something like 20 little red peppers and 13 little green peppers, plus assorted spices you might normally expect in a curry.

Why does the song "Ring of Fire" come to mind here?

Katherine: Didn't you mean "SEAT of FIRE" ?

Michael: I didn't say that Thai Dishes aren't very hot, only that the customers are trying to push hot and hotter, not trying to just enjoy the traditional tastes and subtle flavors.

Another consideration is that the majority of Thai Street Foods are extremly hot, to cool you down [local rumor] mostly because the average low/medium income patrons generally eat several bowls of rice with small dishes for flavoring to accompany the rice. The majority of Thai's entering the restaurant business in the states are from this economic bracket. Almost all the famous well know Thai Restaurants are patronized by more affluent Thai's except on special occasions.

When your talking about "Indian Food" your going into a totally different type of heat. Again much of this has to do with the influence of the Spice Traders that may have some relationship for the assumption that the hottest food on the Indian Continent comes from Goa.

Again in India the cheapest food also is often the hottest as hot covers other shortcomings especially in hawker type street foods of questionable origins.

The "Hottest" SAuce that i've ever heard off was the composition I made for "Lisboa Restaurant" in Honolulu that my staff made labels of the Skull and Crossbones" that they called "Sudden Death".

We served Portugese, Spanish, African and South American Dishes many of which were sometimes served very hot.

We had 3 levels of heat.

One Star was Hot, Rich and Delicious

Three Stars was hotter then Tabasco

Five Stars was more then twice as Hot as Tabasco

Anything above that was at your own risk customized after we had served you Five Stars and you enjoyed the Dish.

Sudden Dealth was off the Hot Scale.

The only customers who were able to reguarly eat and enjoy Five Stars plus Sudden Death were all Indian Professionals or Businessmen. They'd enjoy them selves with Runny Noses, Tearing Eyes and Blistering Lips. We always provided Wet and Regular Towels Tableside. many delighted in bringing visitors to enjoy excellent American food better then home.

Irwin

[ExtraMSG]

That's funny Irwin. I have a friend in Dallas who goes out to eat often with an Indian from Southern India -- can't remember exactly where right now. He pretty much said the same thing about that guy (a computer professional, I believe). He sent us to a Chicago Indian dive called Sizzle India that he said was his favorite restaurant he's been to in the US (and they made dishes from his area). The four of us went through several pitchers of water. I think at least two of us got severe hiccups and my friend from Dallas literally had sweat dripping from his face like he'd just got done running a marathon or something. I think I handled it the best....until it wound it's way through by GI....

Edited January 3, 2004 by ExtraMSG (log)

[Pan]

I bought my father a cookbook printed in India for Indians, I believe of Keralese cooking. The dishes typically call for large quantities of those really hot little green peppers. But one really takes the cake: A hot chili curry, with chili as the vegetable! The recipe called for something like 20 little red peppers and 13 little green peppers, plus assorted spices you might normally expect in a curry.

Why does the song "Ring of Fire" come to mind here?

Well, suffice it to say we thought they were crazy and never once considered making this dish!

Other recipes in that cookbook are terrific, but I think my father always uses a quarter of the amount of peppers called for, and the dishes are still solidly hot that way.

[mb7o]

Miang Kum may not have made it to New York. What is it?

I believe it's a northern thai street food dish, though the only place I managed to notice it was Bangkok. Basically it's a bunch of ingredients wrapped in a bai chapoo (or here, spinach) leaf, either by you or the vendor. The ingredients are dried shrimp, peanuts, chopped lime, chopped coconut, chopped ginger, some more things, and a marmalade like sauce.

http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/recipes/mkum.html

Maybe it's not in NYC yet...

http://www.jamesbeard.org/events/2002/11/020.shtml

On authentic--bai chapoo leaves can be quite tough, and I find it very hard to choke down when they're that way. Perhaps that's the street-food ingredient-quality problem again.

Irwin--what do you think of Typhoon? They apparently recruit chefs from Thailand, as opposed to being a place started by immigrants.

At one point someone told me that many Thai restaurants around here were run by Vietnamese people. Perhaps many are, but the ones I've been to recently definately have mostly thai-speaking staff.

Edited January 5, 2004 by mb7o (log)

[ExtraMSG]

Discussion of Miang in Thompson's Thai Food:

The first time I came across this common snack was in one of the fast-disappearing markets of Bangkok.  And old woman sitting on her haunches behind a small table was selling what seemed to be a very odd array of food.  In bowls made from folded banana leaves were chopped shallots, dried prawns, roasted coconut, and 'betel' leaves; by her side was a large earthenware pot filled with a dark, sticky sauce.  She pulled out a banana leaf and spooned the various components onto it in separate mounds, and in the centre ladled a dollop of thick, toasty caramel.  A small amount of each ingredient was placed on a 'betel' leaf, topped with some sauce and then the leaf was rolled up and eaten.  It was truly sensational, the array of ingredients became a myriad tastes and textures bound together by the sauce and the herbaceous nuttiness of the leaf.  It is no surprise, then, that miang is so popular.

The original miang came from the north of Thailand, near the Burmese border, where wild tea leaves were fermented and chewed with salt.  The taste was quite bitter and tannic, but came with a mildly pleasant narcotic effect.  Gradually other ingredients -- ginger, red shallots, and palm sugar -- were included and rolled into the folds of leaves in this dizzyingly satisfying, rustic wad.

What does "kum" mean? Miang appears to be the dish itself, whereas the modifier follows that term.

I made miang style snacks along with others within the little folded banana leaf cups described above for a brother-in-law's wedding lunch. Got the banana leaves from Vatch's Thia Street Food and the miang ideas from Thompson's book. I love these types of foods. Hopefully I'll find a place in Portland that has them, though I kind of doubt it.

Typhoon, started in Portland, I think, does indeed bring in chef's from Thailand, but that doesn't make it authentic anymore than Bourdain using cooks from south of the border makes his food Mexican. Here's some reading:

http://oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/ba...l?oregonian?fng

I like Typhoon a lot, but you have to recognize what they're doing: upscale, Americanized, NW Thai.

[wesza]

Miang Kum may not have made it to New York. What is it?

I believe it's a northern thai street food dish, though the only place I managed to notice it was Bangkok. Basically it's a bunch of ingredients wrapped in a bai chapoo (or here, spinach) leaf, either by you or the vendor. The ingredients are dried shrimp, peanuts, chopped lime, chopped coconut, chopped ginger, some more things, and a marmalade like sauce.

http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/recipes/mkum.html

Maybe it's not in NYC yet...

http://www.jamesbeard.org/events/2002/11/020.shtml

On authentic--bai chapoo leaves can be quite tough, and I find it very hard to choke down when they're that way. Perhaps that's the street-food ingredient-quality problem again.

Irwin--what do you think of Typhoon? They apparently recruit chefs from Thailand, as opposed to being a place started by immigrants.

At one point someone told me that many Thai restaurants around here were run by Vietnamese people. Perhaps many are, but the ones I've been to recently definately have mostly thai-speaking staff.

mb7o: Typhoon is a americanized Thai Restaurant that keeps sort of middle of the road. I'm amused about them claiming "SECRET RECIPES" since there is nothing served that is remotetly special or unique to the operation. I've never found any dish so special anywhere that it couldn't be copied anywhere in the World.

I've eaten there 4/5 times in Portlant and Seattle never on my own Dollar as my expectations of food are more important then ambiuence.

When eating as a guest I try my best to behave as if i'm enjoying myself, but my eyes and ears are working. The food was acceptable but mediocre. After so many years I can't help it.

There is no question that they used to take advantage of their employeees working in the kitchen as insinuated, but this isn't unusual in many operations of this type. While eating at the Typhoon in Portland one of my Thai Speaking friends in talking to the Chef was told that they were working about 60/70 hour weekly and were paid a salary but weren't working managerial or in charge that in my experience generally is considered as a hourly employee as this salary employess must have management responsabilities.

There has been quite a lot of post thru newspapers and other sites regarding the claims and allegations made by their former workers and it;s interesting that this has been carried into Thailand. I'm curious about the outcome. I'm also wondering how this is effecting the use of time cards in their present operations as the law is quite specific about salaried positions in Washington and Oregan as well as Federal Guidelines.

Thai speaking often doesn't add up to professional Thai Cooking in my experience any more then speaking Chinese adds up to Professional Chinese Cooking but I still enjoy the evolution as it often tastes pretty good.

Irwin