Pizza stone in a gas grill - considerations

[phaelon56]

rlibkind

Posted on Nov 13 2003, 12:52 AM

  I had good success this afternoon in makng a pizza taste (almost) like it came out of a hot wood or coal fired oven by putting a large pizza stone in a gas bbq (Weber Silver B), letting it get as hot as possible long enough to get the stone up to high temp. Oven temp was probably well over 600 F when I put the pizza on the stone. (The crust was a bit tough, but that was my sad tecnical skills in stretching the dough rather than the oven technology.)

Anyone else try this? Results? 

I would have simply revived the original thread but wanted a more pertinent title. There were only a few responses to the original quoted thread and all to the effect that gas grills were good for reheating pizza, the dough could be cooked by oiling and placing directly on the grill etc. - the original poster seemed to be the only one who had experiemented using the pizza stone inside the grill.

My interest has been spurred by watching a video interview with the manager of John's Pizza on Bleecker Street in NYC. The slightly charred and crusty character of thin crust coal oven or wood fired pizza seems in great part dependent on the 600 degree temps achieved in these ovens.

Can a gas grill achieve such internal temps? Do I need one with extra burners (e.g. two main burners plus the two extra warming burners) and have all of them fired up to the max the entire time? How supsceptable are gas grills to ambient temps? if I use it on a covered porch or in an open garage with 25 degree external temps, will it still achieve the desired 600 degree temp? Would some sort of thermal blanket aid in such a scenario?

Comments based on experience, theoretical knowledge or even wild-ass guesses will all be appreciated (and yes.... I have made pizza many times in my regular gas oven at the max temp but strongly suspect that I'll achieve my desired results only with higher temps.

[tommy]

the thermometer in my weber reads about 550 when the thing is fully heated.

[woodburner]

As an alternative to the pizza stone, unglazed tiles available at the local box stores for half the price, work as well, and give better coverage due to the square shape.

Course, as far as gas, I guess you can see on how I feel about that.

I've no first hand experince over gas, but by cooking over lump charcoal, I can obtain temperatures around the 600º range, with forced air induction.

Hopefully we will get some feedback on this, as it has great interest to me.

woodburner

[phaelon56]

As an alternative to the pizza stone, unglazed tiles available at the local box stores for half the price, work as well, and give better coverage due to the square shape.

I already have a nice thick pizza stone that's been in use for a few years. It's rectangular and is just the right size to hold a thin stretched dough made from one half of a standard batch of dough.

The 550 degrees that Tommy quotes is my concern... I suspected as much and was hoping for 600 or a tad higher. Now that I once again have a house rather than a third floor apartment I'm in a position to get a new grill and want to choose wisely.

Is the forced air induction a home-built modification or is there a consumer grill that includes this feature? I'm also wondering.... would more thermal mass = better heat stability and distribution - i.e. would a double thick layer of tiles or perhaps a layer of real brick with tile on top create a surface closer to what is used in a commercial pizza oven?

[rlibkind]

I should stick my own regular oven temp gauge in my Weber Silver B, but the built-in scale tops out at 550 -- and when I've got all three burners up high, after about 15 minutes it tops out, so I'm guessing it's at least 550 and more likely higher. That's why I said 600 in my original post.

As for ambient temperatures, when it's cold out it may take a slightly longer time to reach temperature. But when you think about it, it's hardly more difficult to go from 25F to 550F than is from 90F to 550F. Strong winds, however, might have a more damping effect. My backyard, such as it is, is behind a three-story Philadelphia rowhouse with a six-foot wood fence on two sides, and brick houses on the other two sides, plus I tend to place the grill partially under my row house's rear shed roof in fouler weather. So it's fairly well protected from the weather. In a more open situation, it's conceivable it would be slower to come to temperature if the winds were brisk.

The Weber Silver B has three full burners, no warming burners.

As for gas vs. charcoal, both have their place. Yes, the charcoal will get to a higher temperature than the gas, but it takes at least a little more work. (It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it.) I find that, certainly for pizza, the level of heat attained by a gas grill is sufficient -- and it sure beats my indoor electric oven. I pull out my Weber kettle and use lump charcoal (not briquets) for some items (really good USDA prime steaks, for example), but find that more often than not, when getting a meal on the table with a minimum of fuss but a maximum of taste is the goal, I turn to the gas grill.

[CRUZMISL]

Well, if you're buying something new I would suggest www.kamado.com. I've had mine for 5 years and it it fantastic at pizza. It's great because I can easily achieve 600 degrees no problem with lump charcoal. If the wind is going my way I have seen 750 degrees. The walls are 1.5' ceramic and with a 1" pizza stone the results are wonderful.

PIzza's are good as are steaks, pork butt or anything else you'd care to cook on it

Any questions just ask.

Joe

[tommy]

strong winds definitely effect the temp on my weber.

at the end of the day, if consistent high temps are a concern, an outdoor weber probably isn't the way to go.

another thought: i'm not sure what kind of pizza you plan on making, but mine are thin and take about 3 minutes on the stone. i can't help but think that the stone is doing just about all of the work, rather than the temp of the air in the oven. given that, i'm not sure the 50 degree difference would make much of a difference once you let the stone get up to around that temp.

[phaelon56]

I will be buying a grill regardless of pizza application or not, sometime this spring. The kamado looks interesting but in the larger grill size a bit pricey for me. Still.... if it really works wll as both a smpker and a grill it might be worthwhile.

It's entirely possible that the issue I've had for the past four years has been one of oven temp. I had an ancient and small gas range (it was harvest gold in color - a good hint as to the vintage). It's possible that the ove never even gor much over 450 or 475 degrees.

Tommy - A three minute cooking time sounds about right - my crust never cooked in less than 8 minutes even when stretched quite thin. Do you get that slightly charred effect that is sommon at Lombardi's, Grimaldi's Johns etc? That's one of the things I'm striving for.

[tommy]

Tommy - A three minute cooking time sounds about right - my crust never cooked in less than 8 minutes even when stretched quite thin. Do you get that slightly charred effect that is sommon at Lombardi's, Grimaldi's Johns etc? That's one of the things I'm striving for.

my crust is pretty damned thin, so this might not apply to your crust. but, if i left mine on for much more than 3 minutes, it would be black. 8 minutes and it might very well be totally gone.

but i think the point remains: the air temp might not make that much of a difference. after all, that's just helping to melt/heat the toppings. 500 or 550 would probably do the same job, especially in 8 minutes.

i suppose you'll tell us how it goes. or maybe i'll try some pizza on the grill today for lunch and report back.

[woodburner]

Now that I once again have a house rather than a third floor apartment I'm in a position to get a new grill and want to choose wisely.

Is the forced air induction a home-built modification or is there a consumer grill that includes this feature? I'm also wondering.... would more thermal mass = better heat stability and distribution - i.e. would a double thick layer of tiles or perhaps a layer of real brick with tile on top create a surface closer to what is used in a commercial pizza oven?

It would be a longshot to duplicate a woodfired product in anything less than a woodfired oven. The komado, or green egg would probably offer some thing the closest. If you have followed the Jackl10 blog, he shows a picture of his brick oven. My air induced cooker is a modified weber kettle, set into a table. As soon as we loose some snow, I'll post some pictures.

woodburner

[phaelon56]

Kamado or Big Green Egg - six of one and half dozen of other?

[tommy]

the bad news is, i made the pizza on the stone in the oven instead of the grill, so i really have nothing to add. but the good news is that it was prosciutto and blue cheese, and turned out as one of the best pizzas i've ever had. highly recommended on the grill, in the oven, or anywhere you can make it.

[woodburner]

Kamado or Big Green Egg - six of one and half dozen of other?

The eggs are very nice actually.

woodburner

[phaelon56]

it was prosciutto and blue cheese, and turned out as one of the best pizzas i've ever had. highly recommended

I was a bit skeptical of certain item combinations on pizza until I tried the "house signature pizza" at Fez under Time Cafe. The crust could have been a trifle better but the topping consisted of small chunks of maple smoked bacon, walnuts, sliced green apples (Granny Smith is my guess) and blue cheese. It was one of the tastiest little appetizer pizzas I've tried and for music club pub grub it was way above average.

[markf424]

Sorry I'm so late to this thread.

I, too, use my Weber Genesis Silver B and a baking stone to cook pizza. I agree that my grill meets or exceeds 600 degrees F, but also I'm basing this off of the stock Weber thermometer. In my experience, wind has been the only issue impeding me from getting the type of heat I need for that crinkly crackly crust with black spots that I love. It's rare that I have any trouble in most conditions, but if there are strong gusts of wind, continuously, I'll sometimes have a problem superheating my Weber. I don't think ambient temperature matters much at all.

On the bright side, I am very pleased with the results off of the grill as opposed to in the oven. I'd recommend trying it if you haven't already. And if it really is too windy, just tie a string to your pizza and fly it like a kite.

-Mark

[tommy]

other than not heating up your kitchen, what are the advantages to using an outside grill? i considered doing it the other day, but then realized that everything i needed was in the kitchen, and going outside, even though it was mild, seemed more work.

[JSD]

I made pizza on our weber once. It was blazing hot (100+) and I didn't want to heat up the house. I used quarry tile and heated them up well. I had the pizza on long enough to cook the top, but the bottom was black like cast iron. I didn't try again, but I think less toppings would have worked better. Even though the house wasn't heated up, I was too warm from hanging around the grill and looking in on the pizza.

Re wind, we used to have a problem with wind lowering the temperature, but we just moved the grill to a more secluded location.

[rlibkind]

Two advantages, from my point of view:

• My oven doesn't get hotter than 500 F
  
• At any temp higher than 425, I get a lot of smoke from my oven
  

So, by using the grill, I can cook my pizza about 100 degrees hotter to produce that beautiful crust, and any smoke contributes to outdoor air pollution rather than indoor air pollution.

[tommy]

rlibkind, where is the smoke coming from? if it's a self-clean oven, one cycle should burn all of the burnables out. in fact, that's how i clean my stone (if i forget, i'm in the same boat with the smoke the next time i use the oven).

i'll ask again, though, if we think the 100 degrees are so makes a big difference with a pizza stone or ceramic tiles. i'd be interested in a side-by-side test.

[AzRaeL]

Well, if you're buying something new I would suggest www.kamado.com. I've had mine for 5 years and it it fantastic at pizza. It's great because I can easily achieve 600 degrees no problem with lump charcoal. If the wind is going my way I have seen 750 degrees. The walls are 1.5' ceramic and with a 1" pizza stone the results are wonderful.

PIzza's are good as are steaks, pork butt or anything else you'd care to cook on it

Any questions just ask.

Joe

i can't decide if that is really pretty or really ugly like a bad lawn ornament.

[marinade]

I was messing with something like this a few years back trying to simulate a wood burning oven for old world breads and pizza. I have a New Braunfelds Bandera smoker w/ an offset firebox. The smoker also has two thermometers, one on the lid of the fire box (my addition) and on the door of the smoking chamber. A friend of mine who is one of the best tile men (IMHO) in the Delaware Valley supplied me w/ sheets of unglazed tile to line the firebox. The Braunfeld's firebox is rectangular shaped with an air control slider and brackets to accommodate a grilling grate (from the smoker chamber). I lined the floor and 3 sides w the tiles, keeping the slider side open. I placed a baking stone on the grilling grate and used it for baking bread and pizza. I’ve found that the tiles can hold moisture better but it takes longer to get the temperatures up.

Here are some results and opinions FWIW.

1. Hardwood Charcoal: Burns hot, over 600°. Hardwood rises and peaks in heat over a short period of time.

2. Charcoal briquettes: Don’t use ‘em; don’t know what’s in them.

3. Hardwood: Had the most luck with Oak because it tends to be the most neutral of smoking woods as compared to hickory, mesquite, and the flavor woods.

4. Crust: Crust comes from moisture. You need to introduce the element of steam into firebox during the roughly the last 1/4 of the baking time to produce crust. The more steam you introduce the thicker the crust. Soaking wood produces smoke, which is a cocktail of steam and other types of gases; you may not want that type of flavor color on your bread or pizza. I’ve had luck with pie pans and ice cubes.

I’m going back and forth over the idea of going to stone for smoking foods as well. Most of the smokers I saw the Canadians using for smoking salmon (over maple) were stone and the antecedents for stone baking or smoking go way back in most traditional cuisines.

One result I’ve noticed w/ high heat grilling with hardwood is that over time it will create scaling and flaking on the inside of Weber’s dome lid. Has anyone else had the same results?

[ronnie_suburban]

One result I’ve noticed w/ high heat grilling with hardwood is that over time it will create scaling and flaking on the inside of Weber’s dome lid. Has anyone else had the same results?

Yes, and you have to be pro-active about removing it or the flakes end up in the food.

=R=

[fresco]

Same thing happens in gas Weber.

[marinade]

I apologize for straying off topic with this but heat and metal reaction seem to be an issue. I do remove the flaking. It's the one garnish I don't need. These cooker's paint jobs seem to be close to that of automobiles (prior to body damage). The parts are primed and either dipped or sprayed, then sent to a dryer to bake on the finish. Since the metal is so thin it does expand and contract over high heat. It looks to me that the paint can't withstand the heat. Think about it for a moment. Would happen if you had that paint on the bottom of saute pan (with that kind of thickness). There was a time when someone mentioned a BBQ pit it was something that looked like a stone throne in someone's back yard. Ah progress.

[tommy]

I apologize for straying off topic with this but heat and metal reaction seem to be an issue. I do remove the flaking. It's the one garnish I don't need. These cooker's paint jobs seem to be close to that of automobiles (prior to body damage). The parts are primed and either dipped or sprayed, then sent to a dryer to bake on the finish. Since the metal is so thin it does expand and contract over high heat. It looks to me that the paint can't withstand the heat. Think about it for a moment. Would happen if you had that paint on the bottom of saute pan (with that kind of thickness). There was a time when someone mentioned a BBQ pit it was something that looked like a stone throne in someone's back yard. Ah progress.

the weber, at the very least, has no paint on the inside of the lid. the flaking is harmless carbon.