Babies/Children in Restaurants (merged topic)

[KatieLoeb]

i am a baby of a different type so i'll ask this question here: should adults who are apt to get loud when they have fun also not go to fancy restaurants? what if my idea of a good time and a special occasion clashes with yours?

you don't want to be around me and my boys when we get going. however, most adults know when it's inappropriate to get loud, and also, occasionally, respond to requests from the management to keep it down to a low roar. children, i'm thinking, don't have those capabilities.

but yeah, some adults should clearly not be allowed out in public.

Your idea of a good time and mine shouldn't clash if we take those ideas to the appropriate places. I have no problem with a group of folks getting loud in a sports bar, a pub, a college bar, etc. I have a problem with them getting loud at the bar in a fine dining establishment. That's not appropriate. If you and your peeps get loud enough to have management ask you to tone it down in a place where that sort of behavior is tolerated or even encouraged, then yeah - you shouldn't be let out of the house without supervision, even if you are old enough to drive yourself there, legally buy the drinks, or even make more money than anyone else in the room and regularly perform life saving surgeries. You are, quite simply, an ass.

Children may not know what is or isn't OK, but their parents do. The very parents that take the screaming little monsters to Chuck E. Cheese are teaching their charges that running around maniacally and shreiking in a public space, is OK under some circumstances. Is it any wonder?

[hjshorter]

Children may not know what is or isn't OK, but their parents do. The very parents that take the screaming little monsters to Chuck E. Cheese are teaching their charges that running around maniacally and shreiking in a public space, is OK under some circumstances. Is it any wonder?

My kids have never been there, and never will. If they want to go to an amusement park, we will take them to an amusement park.

We took both kids out to Rio Grande (Tex-Mex chain) last night and sat next to a table full of little hooligans whose parents let them get up and run around. Yes, it's a family place, but we still don't let the kids out of their chairs while we are eating.

One of the women at the table observed Emma and Ian sharing our squid appetizer and was curious to know if they knew what they were eating. She said her kids "don't eat anything." I was tempted to tell her that she might want to reconsider rewarding them with ice cream when they haven't eaten their meals.

[KatieLoeb]

Children may not know what is or isn't OK, but their parents do.  The very parents that take the screaming little monsters to Chuck E. Cheese are teaching their charges that running around maniacally and shreiking in a public space, is OK under some circumstances.  Is it any wonder?

My kids have never been there, and never will. If they want to go to an amusement park, we will take them to an amusement park.

We took both kids out to Rio Grande (Tex-Mex chain) last night and sat next to a table full of little hooligans whose parents let them get up and run around. Yes, it's a family place, but we still don't let the kids out of their chairs while we are eating.

One of the women at the table observed Emma and Ian sharing our squid appetizer and was curious to know if they knew what they were eating. She said her kids "don't eat anything." I was tempted to tell her that she might want to reconsider rewarding them with ice cream when they haven't eaten their meals.

Heather:

This is exactly what I was getting at. At an amusement park it's OK to squeal and shout on the rides. It isn't OK at a restaurant. Take your kids to Chuck E. Cheese and you're showing them that going out to eat (because that's the connection they are capable of making) and screaming and running about is acceptable behavior. They don't understand that even the not-so-fancy family restaurant isn't like the other.

[tommy]

If you and your peeps get loud enough to have management ask you to tone it down in a place where that sort of behavior is tolerated or even encouraged, then yeah - you shouldn't be let out of the house without supervision, even if you are old enough to drive yourself there, legally buy the drinks, or even make more money than anyone else in the room and regularly perform life saving surgeries.  You are, quite simply, an ass.

i think you missed the spirit of my post, and manybe mongo's, as he/she *must* have been joking...but regardless, it sounds like you're suggesting that if a group of people gets loud, without realizing it, and is asked to temper their behavior, then they are asses and shouldn't be allowed out without supervision? does that include laughing out loud at Daniel? not that anyone says anything funny there, but in theory it could happen.

Edited April 9, 2004 by tommy (log)

[JennotJenn]

but yeah, some adults should clearly not be allowed out in public.

Your idea of a good time and mine shouldn't clash if we take those ideas to the appropriate places. I have no problem with a group of folks getting loud in a sports bar, a pub, a college bar, etc. I have a problem with them getting loud at the bar in a fine dining establishment. That's not appropriate. If you and your peeps get loud enough to have management ask you to tone it down in a place where that sort of behavior is tolerated or even encouraged, then yeah - you shouldn't be let out of the house without supervision, even if you are old enough to drive yourself there, legally buy the drinks, or even make more money than anyone else in the room and regularly perform life saving surgeries. You are, quite simply, an ass.

Children may not know what is or isn't OK, but their parents do. The very parents that take the screaming little monsters to Chuck E. Cheese are teaching their charges that running around maniacally and shreiking in a public space, is OK under some circumstances. Is it any wonder?

Ok, I have a long story about both kinds of kids in restaurants (kid-kids and adult-kids).

I used to wait at a sort of upscale but touristy restaurant in a restored German religious settlement. It was nicer at night, lit by beeswax candles in pewter sconces, white tableclothes...not too bad. We had to wear late 17th century colonial pioneer costumes and schlep down 2 steep flights of stairs to retrieve food and soft drinks, which gets old after a whiney kid asks for his 5th refill of Sprite. Anyway...

We were located in a restored 19th century tavern which was broken up into 6 separate dining rooms. A large enough party could reserve an entire room if need be. So I was assigned to wait on this party of around 15, who had reserved a whole room and who would be celebrating their parent's 50th wedding anniversary. Ok, fine, I should be making some good $$$ on the table, yay.

Well, the party arrives already drunk (except for the kids and the happy couple). One of the guys has an open Heinken bottle in his hand as he walks through the door, which is quite illegal in our town (I think it's illegal all over NC, but I won't swear to it), but my manager told me he was going to overlook it for the time being (i.e. unless it became a problem). The women have that overly tanned, bleach blonde I-used-to-live-in-a-trailer-but-I-won-the-lotto look. But whatever, fine, they may still be perfectly nice people. I go to the pantry to get bread ready and to give them some time to settle down and look at the menu.

I go back into the room and the kids are still running around like little demons. I congratulate the older couple on their 50th anniversary, and take drink orders. The moms on hand manage to corral the kids long enough to order drinks. Of course, the already trashed adults order more alcohol, mostly in the form of Miller Lite. But fine, no problem, any alcohol will add to the bill and drunk people usually order more food. When it comes time to order drinks for the kids, mom asks her little boy (around 5 or 6 years old) what he wants to drink. He mumbles apple juice to her and she asks if we have apple juice. "No," I reply," but we have apple cider. It's a very, very mild apple cider and tastes almost identical to apple juice, really." And it really did. I couldn't tell a difference in a side by side taste test.

Well, this woman's eye's narrow and she snarls "I think I know what apple cider is!" Ok, damn, lady, sorry. So I listed the other juices we had and mentioned we also had Sprite.

Little tyke pipes up (addressing me this time) and says he wants pineapple juice. At which point his drunken uncle stands up and yells:

"Pineapple juice!!! What the hell kinda reee-tarded kid drinks pineapple juice?!?"

The kid orders Sprite.

And it was downhill from there. The kids ran around like it was a playground, tripping me up at every turn. The adults were rude and demanding and loud and drunk. The drunk uncle was a piece of work, standing up every so often to shout such charmers as "Hey er'body...look at me...I look fuckin' good in this suit! Fuckin' A!!" To top it off, our head line cook was stoned even more than usual AND in a worse mood than usual, so food was coming up super, super slow. The only saving grace is that they were contained in their own room...at first.

They are not pleased with my service, so they call for my manager. They tell him that I was sullen and a shitty waitress. So my manager asks me about it, knowing that these people are a piece of work and blotto to boot. I told him I wasn't sullen, I was just concentrating really hard on not falling over one of the kids. They also complained that I didn't do anything special for their parent's anniversary. Manager asks me about that. I told him that I very politely and appropriatly (I thought) wished them a happy anniversary and exchanged a few pleasantries about how 50 years was a wonderful accomplishment and how I hoped they had many more happy years together (though at this point I was doubting that many of the 50 years had been happy!).

So manager goes to talk to the party again, at which point a screaming match begins in the lobby, disturbing every single other guest. I'm upstairs, away from the fray, but I can hear my manager screaming "What the hell did you want her to do? Sing to them?!? This isn't TGI Fridays for God's sake! Maybe that would be a better place for you!" Then he brought up the illegality of bringing in an open container, and that he would call the cops, citing that and disturbing the peace as precident. Then he blacklisted them from the restaurant. They left.

Luckily, my 15% was included in the bill, which my manager refused to comp. Yes, I know I'm lucky to have such an understanding manager.

It was unreal. These people were straight out of a John Waters movie.

So, yeah, lots of people should be banned from restaurants. And with kids that small (but old enough to know better), the parents are to blame. Obviously, in this case. Personally, kids in nice restaurants make me nervous because I'm afraid they'll misbehave and the parent's will not respond. But I will honestly say that I've never experienced that in a nice restaurant.

[NeroW]

but yeah, some adults should clearly not be allowed out in public.

And I am one of them.

[chow guy]

This thread reminds me of an experience I had while working as maitr'd at a posh place in New York back in the late seventies..

A woman came inside through the French doors, gaped at the $350 flower arrangement on the landing between the two levels of the restaurant and asked:

"Do you serve children?"

I said, "Yes Madam, on pita bread!"

"I don't find that funny", she said.

"I don't find chilren in restaurants of this calibre funny."

[LaurieA-B]

This is exactly what I was getting at.  At an amusement park it's OK to squeal and shout on the rides.  It isn't OK at a restaurant.  Take your kids to Chuck E. Cheese and you're showing them that going out to eat (because that's the connection they are capable of making) and screaming and running about is acceptable behavior.  They don't understand that even the not-so-fancy family restaurant isn't like the other.

I disagree. I think even young children can learn that different behavior is appropriate in different places. It is up to the parents to communicate their expectations. My siblings and I were holy terrors at home, but we knew how to behave in public. We knew that Chuck E. Cheese was for running around and playing games, but if we went to Denny's (which I considered a nice restaurant when I was a kid), we knew that we should sit quietly and not make a mess.

[mongo_jones]

Dined at a local, BYO Indian restaurant next to a table of two adults and one small child - maybe 3-5 years old. He couldn't sit still and constantly interrupted their conversation. Well, what looked like daddy and a date gave him some beer to drink. He quieted down and eventually slid off his chair under the table! They quickly got him back in his chair, but he had clearly had too much to drink! The adults continued to have their dinner and ignore this poor child.

in an indian restaurant that is perfectly appropriate behavior. if you go to restaurants--even 5-star ones-- in india you'll see what a (to my mind refreshing) different atttitude to the experience of fine dining (and the presence of children etc.) most indians have: restaurants are noisy and raucous, kids literally run wild and no one really cares or objects. and yeah i was given lots of nips of beer when i was a kid--explains a lot probably.

[mongo_jones]

i think you missed the spirit of my post, and manybe mongo's, as he/she *must* have been joking...but regardless, it sounds like you're suggesting that if a group of people gets loud, without realizing it, and is asked to temper their behavior, then they are asses and shouldn't be allowed out without supervision? does that include laughing out loud at Daniel? not that anyone says anything funny there, but in theory it could happen.

well, yes.

i take the point that there is a genre distinction between "fine dining" restaurants and "casual" restaurants which moves along the axes of behavior etc. as well as food and price, but jesus you people make it sound like fine dining restaurants should have funereal atmospheres--with hushed conversations--and that only people who've read the manual should be allowed in. if i want to celebrate a special occasion by spending many hundreds of dollars in a fine french restaurant (which luckily for most of you folks i don't ever seem to want to do) i would like to have the opportunity there to tell and be told a few jokes, appropriate responses to which wouldn't be prim titters but loud guffaws. perhaps fine restaurants should just provide some diners with noise-cancelling headphones?

mongo

[Susan G]

Well, what looked like daddy and a date gave him some beer to drink. He quieted down and eventually slid off his chair under the table! They quickly got him back in his chair, but he had clearly had too much to drink! The adults continued to have their dinner and ignore this poor child.

in an indian restaurant that is perfectly appropriate behavior.

[tommy]

And on either continent, passing out is a symptom of alcohol poisoning.

i'm not sure that's the case.

[mongo_jones]

Well, what looked like daddy and a date gave him some beer to drink. He quieted down and eventually slid off his chair under the table! They quickly got him back in his chair, but he had clearly had too much to drink! The adults continued to have their dinner and ignore this poor child.

in an indian restaurant that is perfectly appropriate behavior.

It's not appropriate behavior if that Indian restaurant is in the United States. It's called child endangerment. And on either continent, passing out is a symptom of alcohol poisoning.

[robyn]

i am a baby of a different type so i'll ask this question here: should adults who are apt to get loud when they have fun also not go to fancy restaurants? what if my idea of a good time and a special occasion clashes with yours?

You seem to set up this dichotomy between adult behavior that would be appropriate at a funeral - and behavior that would be appropriate at a local sports bar during the Florida/Florida State game (the latter usually resembles a group of 100 children who've had too much sugar at Chuck E. Cheese - except at our largest sports bar - which probably seats in excess of 300 - that is just sheer pandemonium).

I think there is an awful lot of ground in the middle. Where adults who are having a good time while behaving reasonably can all enjoy the evening.

By the way - the Indian restaurants where I live (there aren't many of them but we have them) are as you describe. I know if I go there - that's what I'm going to get. I wouldn't find that atmosphere acceptable at a 4 star restaurant in New York or a 3 star restaurant in London. It's like sometimes I have people over for dinner and kids are welcome - and sometimes they're not. Robyn

[mongo_jones]

You seem to set up this dichotomy between adult behavior that would be appropriate at a funeral - and behavior that would be appropriate at a local sports bar during the Florida/Florida State game (the latter usually resembles a group of 100 children who've had too much sugar at Chuck E. Cheese - except at our largest sports bar - which probably seats in excess of 300 - that is just sheer pandemonium).

i'm just commenting on the definition of "appropriate behavior at a fine restaurant" as it appears to me from the posts in this thread. it wouldn't surprise me, based on some of the posts here, if activity much further down the middle of the continuum you describe would also be unacceptable to some people.

i think in general children in the u.s are far more "disciplined" in the active sense than they are in most places in the world--there is an ideology of "young adultness"--"leave alone at a fine restaurant, kids shouldn't even run around at chuck-e-cheese's"--whatever happened to just being a kid? more adults should consider having a childhood again. (or maybe they should just read "the pickwick papers" more often--as great a novel about childhood and food as there is.) this aristocratic ideology of fine dining would also benefit from a revolution or two.

By the way - the Indian restaurants where I live (there aren't many of them but we have them) are as you describe. I know if I go there - that's what I'm going to get. I wouldn't find that atmosphere acceptable at a 4 star restaurant in New York or a 3 star restaurant in London.

is that because of the difference in money or something else? if you had a really fancy indian restaurant in new york or london--say suvir saran's amma taken up a few more levels--and they maintained an indian cultural attitude to the question of children (in india children are almost universally indulged and it is rare to find adults who will take umbrage at their behavior anywhere) would you say it wouldn't deserve 3 or 4 stars? in other words, is your definition of fine-dining predicated on it being a quiet zone? a place for only muted, stately celebrations? if so, restaurants should specify that--not turn on the ice and raised eye-brows if guests play by different rules.

[auntdot]

Dined at a local, BYO Indian restaurant next to a table of two adults and one small child - maybe 3-5 years old.  He couldn't sit still and constantly interrupted their conversation.  Well, what looked like daddy and a date gave him some beer to drink.  He quieted down and eventually slid off his chair under the table!  They quickly got him back in his chair, but he had clearly had too much to drink!  The adults continued to have their dinner and ignore this poor child. 

Sorry, but that was child abuse.

Would have called the police immediately and reported the incident.

I do not care how toney the establishment was.

Shame on you for not doing so.

[KatieLoeb]

If you and your peeps get loud enough to have management ask you to tone it down in a place where that sort of behavior is tolerated or even encouraged, then yeah - you shouldn't be let out of the house without supervision, even if you are old enough to drive yourself there, legally buy the drinks, or even make more money than anyone else in the room and regularly perform life saving surgeries.  You are, quite simply, an ass.

i think you missed the spirit of my post, and manybe mongo's, as he/she *must* have been joking...but regardless, it sounds like you're suggesting that if a group of people gets loud, without realizing it, and is asked to temper their behavior, then they are asses and shouldn't be allowed out without supervision? does that include laughing out loud at Daniel? not that anyone says anything funny there, but in theory it could happen.

I suppose I could have been more specific. I think if you're asked to "tone it down" at ADNY, then perhaps you shouldn't have been there in the first place. You might guffaw at a joke a bit too loudly, but then again, maybe telling the types of jokes that would elicit raucous laughing in a civilized, yeah maybe even stuffy sort of establishment like that isn't appropriate or well thought out.

If you go to a place where it's widely accepted as a locale to get noisy (like the pub or sports bar) and they ask you to dial it back more than once you have to assume you're being too loud for even the "it's OK to be loud" place and you might wish to consider leaving. If you simply refuse to heed the warnings from management (as I've seen happen often with loud obnoxious yuppies with a totally unrealistic sense of entitlement) or think that throwing more money at it will make the rules change, then you're an ass.

[mongo_jones]

I suppose I could have been more specific. I think if you're asked to "tone it down" at ADNY, then perhaps you shouldn't have been there in the first place. You might guffaw at a joke a bit too loudly, but then again, maybe telling the types of jokes that would elicit raucous laughing in a civilized, yeah maybe even stuffy sort of establishment like that isn't appropriate or well thought out.

so, if i understand correctly if you aren't civilized you aren't in any danger of getting stuffy?

[KatieLoeb]

I suppose I could have been more specific.  I think if you're asked to "tone it down" at ADNY, then perhaps you shouldn't have been there in the first place.  You might guffaw at a joke a bit too loudly, but then again, maybe telling the types of jokes that would elicit raucous laughing in a civilized, yeah maybe even stuffy sort of establishment like that isn't appropriate or well thought out.

so, if i understand correctly if you aren't civilized you aren't in any danger of getting stuffy?

Mercifully, natural selection usually handles this because the uncivilized don't like to do stuffy. Sometimes though, the ones with that arrogant sense of entitlement decide that their good time is far more important than that of every other customer in the establishment. This is where they earn their Asshole Merit badges.

[tommy]

I suppose I could have been more specific. I think if you're asked to "tone it down" at ADNY, then perhaps you shouldn't have been there in the first place. You might guffaw at a joke a bit too loudly, but then again, maybe telling the types of jokes that would elicit raucous laughing in a civilized, yeah maybe even stuffy sort of establishment like that isn't appropriate or well thought out.

If you go to a place where it's widely accepted as a locale to get noisy (like the pub or sports bar) and they ask you to dial it back more than once you have to assume you're being too loud for even the "it's OK to be loud" place and you might wish to consider leaving. If you simply refuse to heed the warnings from management (as I've seen happen often with loud obnoxious yuppies with a totally unrealistic sense of entitlement) or think that throwing more money at it will make the rules change, then you're an ass.

there are a lot more places in btwn ADNY and a sports bar. and i think we're considering them, as well. and i see now that you're talking about people who refuse management's request to tone it down. that's another story.

[robyn]

You seem to set up this dichotomy between adult behavior that would be appropriate at a funeral - and behavior that would be appropriate at a local sports bar during the Florida/Florida State game (the latter usually resembles a group of 100 children who've had too much sugar at Chuck E. Cheese - except at our largest sports bar - which probably seats in excess of 300 - that is just sheer pandemonium).

i'm just commenting on the definition of "appropriate behavior at a fine restaurant" as it appears to me from the posts in this thread. it wouldn't surprise me, based on some of the posts here, if activity much further down the middle of the continuum you describe would also be unacceptable to some people.

i think in general children in the u.s are far more "disciplined" in the active sense than they are in most places in the world--there is an ideology of "young adultness"--"leave alone at a fine restaurant, kids shouldn't even run around at chuck-e-cheese's"--whatever happened to just being a kid? more adults should consider having a childhood again. (or maybe they should just read "the pickwick papers" more often--as great a novel about childhood and food as there is.) this aristocratic ideology of fine dining would also benefit from a revolution or two.

By the way - the Indian restaurants where I live (there aren't many of them but we have them) are as you describe. I know if I go there - that's what I'm going to get. I wouldn't find that atmosphere acceptable at a 4 star restaurant in New York or a 3 star restaurant in London.

is that because of the difference in money or something else? if you had a really fancy indian restaurant in new york or london--say suvir saran's amma taken up a few more levels--and they maintained an indian cultural attitude to the question of children (in india children are almost universally indulged and it is rare to find adults who will take umbrage at their behavior anywhere) would you say it wouldn't deserve 3 or 4 stars? in other words, is your definition of fine-dining predicated on it being a quiet zone? a place for only muted, stately celebrations? if so, restaurants should specify that--not turn on the ice and raised eye-brows if guests play by different rules.

I don't know what standards other people have. If I'm having a truly wonderful meal - I am usually happy - and I am usually drinking a bit too much. My behavior isn't childlike - but it isn't funereal either.

Also - I'm not sure how a restaurant reviewer (the people who hand out the stars) would act when faced with a lot of children running around at a fine Indian restaurant - because children running around in a restaurant is ok in terms of Indian culture.

On my part though - I have to say that when I'm spending big bucks for a 3 hour meal in a really nice place - I don't want children running around - making a lot of kid noise and/or a mess. I'd have the same reaction if I were spending an afternoon at a nice spa - some time working out - having a massage - maybe some time in the pool or the baths - then some quality chaise time with a nice book (maybe Dickens - maybe not) and a drink - and there were a bunch of kids running around. There are times and places when an adult "wants to get away from it all" - and - to me - getting away from kids (who are simply acting like kids) when I'm at a fine restaurant or spa falls into those times and places.

By the way - I'm thinking of going to Zaika when I'm in London next month. Do kids run around there? Robyn

[balex]

Very formal food in a very formal setting; not what I would call relaxing. In my experience, more often ruined by adults than children, since children tend not to be taken to places like that. Certainly my last two bad experiences involved adults behaving inappropriately.

The Western restaurant experience generally takes place in public dining rooms, so inevitably there is some interaction with your fellow customers. In Japan, it is more based around private dining rooms; this might be more congenial to some people, and indeed most high-end restaurants in Europe do have private dining rooms where the more exigent members of this site might find the tranquillity they crave.

In reality though, I think the specific objections to children in general voiced on this thread are caused by some specific prejudices against children, verging on pedophobia. Some people even seem to indicate that they object to well-behaved children in restaurants. Because they might get 'tense'. This sort of prejudice is unacceptable whether it is directed against children, blacks, gays or disabled people, or people from particular national backgrounds.

To avoid confusion, I think that a "fancy" restaurant is entitled to expect a certain standard of behaviour from all its customers, children or adults. The host is responsible for choosing a restaurant that is suitable for all of the party.

And if I take my children to a fancy restaurant and somebody at the next table gets all "tense" because he/she is worried they might start misbehaving -- too fucking bad.

[mongo_jones]

By the way - I'm thinking of going to Zaika when I'm in London next month. Do kids run around there? Robyn

i doubt it highly--though i'll be interested to read your report. from all accounts zaika doesn't indianize the idea of fine-dining--merely serves indian food in a standard fine-dining context. if any indians showed up with their kids and let them loose, or if the adults start laughing loudly or something at jokes they don't know they shouldn't tell in fine restaurants, they might even get called "uncivilized" or something. then again i haven't been there.

[Minister of Drink]

Not too too long ago I came home from a bullshit-laden day at work. The thought of preparing a good dinner (I got the skills) seemed too much to handle at the time. "Why not go out to eat", I thought to myslef. After all, I was stressed, tired and deserved to be served. So I call up a friend and off we go to a favorite local joint (which shall remain nameless as this is not a pointed restaurant review, but rather, a rant on restaurant etiquette). Was the experience stress relieving and enjoyable? No!!! But it could have been... Through no fault of he kitchen or service, the outing sucked... and here's why: Two sets of self-absorbed, limosine-liberal, North Arlington parents decided to bring their misbehaved offspring along to dinner. in short, most of my meal was like dentistry without novocain.

Link to firestorm

In short, if you do decide to bring your offspring, make sure it behaves... or, five accross the eye (thumb-in) should be applied with a quickness that would even stun Lee van Cleefe!

------

Editors note: I had to put the link in rather than the text, due to respect for copyright issues. Also, can this somehow be tied into DC DelMarVa?

[sara]

Hm. Well, I'll agree with regard to some restaurants and not others (i.e. children don't belong at Nectar, for example, but should be fine at Whitlows in Wilson or other places with mats to drawn on) and some children and not others (I think it's possible to teach children to behave when going out to dinner, and those that don't learn shouldn't be taken out). So what kind of restaurant was this??

ps. Advocating punching a child are you? Or the parent?