Why is it hard to get a decent glass of wine?

[Craig Camp]

"Our industry just doesn't do as good a job as possible with wine," says Chris Tripoli, a San Antonio consultant who has worked with several Tarrant County restaurants. "Not all of them, of course, but a lot have missed the point that there has been a tremendous movement among consumers to try wines. It's not just reserved for the social elite or business expense accounts anymore."

[Fat Guy]

That's just the tip of the iceberg. Even if you can find a decent bottle of wine on a middle-market restaurant's list, and even if it's only marked up double, chances are it will be 1) poorly stored; 2) served at a totally inappropriate temperature; 3) in crappy glasses; 4) filled to the top by an inept waiter. Not to mention, the service staff is likely not to know bubkes about the wines on the list, the list is unlikely to be annotated, and most of the time the vintages are wrong or missing. The independently owned restaurants of America are very inventive at coming up with ways to make the Olive Garden look good.

[Schneier]

But there's a silber lining. There's a class of restaurants that I call New American Bistros. They tend to have small but interesting wine lists chosen and served by a knowledgable staff and reasonably priced.

I can think of half a dozen restaurants in the Minneapolis area that do this; I have been to others in many cities.

Bruce

(Steven, what the hell are you doing up at 5:30 on Christmas morning reading eGullet?)

[Fat Guy]

Bruce, didn't you know I'm Santa Claus?

Do any of these New American bistros have their wine lists online? I'd like to check a few out.

[tommy]

That's just the tip of the iceberg. Even if you can find a decent bottle of wine on a middle-market restaurant's list, and even if it's only marked up double, chances are it will be 1) poorly stored; 2) served at a totally inappropriate temperature; 3) in crappy glasses; 4) filled to the top by an inept waiter. Not to mention, the service staff is likely not to know bubkes about the wines on the list, the list is unlikely to be annotated, and most of the time the vintages are wrong or missing. The independently owned restaurants of America are very inventive at coming up with ways to make the Olive Garden look good.

amen.

[Mark Sommelier]

This is how wine by the glass works in better restaurants. Most restaurants choose bottles that cost between $4 and $9 for their wine pours. California is very good about supplying an endless stream of chardonnays, merlots, and cabernets at that price point. They then sell them for $4 to $9 a glass. In the restaurant I work in, the glass pours are wines that cost between $12 and $25 a bottle. When you buy in quantity, you can get some great deals. I can pour Premier Cru white Burgundy for $16 a glass. I can pour classified Bordeaux from between $15-$20 a glass. I sell 5 cases a week of Sancerre at $10 a glass. We offer 2 rieslings. It isn't hard to offer good wines. My trick: the glasses are priced at ¼ of the bottle price.

[Brad Ballinger]

Do any of these New American bistros have their wine lists online? I'd like to check a few out.

www.heartlandrestaurant.com is one. The problem is most will end up changing their inventory (they're not buying mass-produced wines), and the wine list, much like the menu, changes frequently.

[KatieLoeb]

Do any of these New American bistros have their wine lists online? I'd like to check a few out.

www.heartlandrestaurant.com is one. The problem is most will end up changing their inventory (they're not buying mass-produced wines), and the wine list, much like the menu, changes frequently.

I'm not certain I'm seeing this as a "problem", unless you just meant the website would be out of date. I've always tried to have an ever evolving wine by the glass program as well as bottled wine list. Sometimes this happens by necessity (the vintage has run out or the price has gone up to where it's no longer cost effective as a by the glass wine), and many times it's because I want it that way as She Who Makes These Decisions . It's interesting for new customers as well as keeping the regulars entertained by having the bartenders say "Hey - have you tasted this lovely new Rueda from Spain we're serving now..." and stoking the ever flickering fire of the bartender-customer relationship. I definitely consider it part of my responsibility to do that too.

In agreement with Mark about everything he said, except my equation is 5/5 oz. glasses per bottle. Bottle price is exactly 5 times the glass price so I can get accurate cost of goods percentages without trying to figure out what the "average" price of a bottle of the house Chardonnay was this week.

[Brad Ballinger]

Katie,

I don't see it as a problem at all. I was just bracing Steve for the improbability that he'd find many online wine lists for the places Bruce was mentioning.

[winebill]

What about "Half-Bottles"?

Why dont't more restaurants have a decent Half bottle list ?

[tcizma]

There will never be more than a small number of restaurants ( comparatively speaking ) with thoughtful, interesting wines poured in the appropriate glasses by an informed server.

Why not? There just isn't the demand. The vast majority of consumers are perfectly happy drinking grocery store wine out of glassware that can double as a potpourri holder in a pinch.

There is of course a larger concentration of establishments with smart wine lists in and around major metropolitan areas, and I am pleasantly surprised every once in a while at some suburban strip mall joint.

But by and large, I am disapointed virtually everywhere I go by the lack of attention to wine, glassware and service.

And I say " keep up the good work!" because it makes those of us who do care and put a lot of effort into finding the right wines, investing in glassware and training staff, look that much better.

[tommy]

There will never be more than a small number of restaurants ( comparatively speaking ) with thoughtful, interesting wines poured in the appropriate glasses by an informed server.

Why not? There just isn't the demand. The vast majority of consumers are perfectly happy drinking grocery store wine out of glassware that can double as a potpourri holder in a pinch.

but that suggests that there's a downside (from the restaurant's perspective) to serving interesting wines (stemware and servers are a slightly different story). i don't think that interesting wines cost all that much more than mediocre wines. i *do* think that even though the wine list says "Pouilly Fuisse", if it says "chardonnay grape" as well, those who don't care will order it and be quite happy.

this tells me that most of these restaurants simply don't care. if they gave it any more thought than "well, i don't think our customers care", they'd consider it and their customers would be better served. i don't know of many aspects of running a business where the possibility serving your customers better is so grossly ignored and written off without much thought.

[Craig Camp]

i *do* think that even though the wine list says "Pouilly Fuisse", if it says "chardonnay grape" as well, those who don't care will order it and be quite happy.

this tells me that most of these restaurants simply don't care.

They also simply don't know that Pouilly Fuisse is made from chardonnay.

[docsconz]

What about "Half-Bottles"?

Why dont't more restaurants have a decent Half bottle list ?

This is a point thatb really amazes me. For me at least the half bottle format is perfect for restaurant dining. If I am with my wife or rarely by myself at a restaurant, the half-bottle really comes in handy. It is great for pairing with courses for the two of us and makes a reasonable offering for dinner for one. Of course, restaurants with decent half bottle lists are more likely to have good by the glass lists too. Unfortunately, they are all too often meager and boring. I don't mind spending money for a good wine, but I hyate to waste it or feel compelled to drink more than I should.

[Mark Sommelier]

What about "Half-Bottles"?

Why dont't more restaurants have a decent Half bottle list ?

This is a point thatb really amazes me. For me at least the half bottle format is perfect for restaurant dining. If I am with my wife or rarely by myself at a restaurant, the half-bottle really comes in handy. It is great for pairing with courses for the two of us and makes a reasonable offering for dinner for one. Of course, restaurants with decent half bottle lists are more likely to have good by the glass lists too. Unfortunately, they are all too often meager and boring. I don't mind spending money for a good wine, but I hyate to waste it or feel compelled to drink more than I should.

It has been my experience that half bottles and wines by the glass compete with each other, so, in my opinion, either one or the other should be featured to maximize movement of the product. I serve 22 wines by the glass plus another 12 dessert wines by the glass. Half bottles that I offer are almost exclusively moderate to very expensive sweet wines. We sell on average $25,000 a month of high quality wine by the glass with no complaints about the lack of half bottles.

[tommy]

They also simply don't know that Pouilly Fuisse is made from chardonnay.

that's the other point i was thinking about when i was shopping for lunch: i don't know a whole lot about wine, but i probably know more than 90% of restaurant managers and owners in the US. that's a shame really.

[docsconz]

What about "Half-Bottles"?

Why dont't more restaurants have a decent Half bottle list ?

This is a point thatb really amazes me. For me at least the half bottle format is perfect for restaurant dining. If I am with my wife or rarely by myself at a restaurant, the half-bottle really comes in handy. It is great for pairing with courses for the two of us and makes a reasonable offering for dinner for one. Of course, restaurants with decent half bottle lists are more likely to have good by the glass lists too. Unfortunately, they are all too often meager and boring. I don't mind spending money for a good wine, but I hyate to waste it or feel compelled to drink more than I should.

It has been my experience that half bottles and wines by the glass compete with each other, so, in my opinion, either one or the other should be featured to maximize movement of the product. I serve 22 wines by the glass plus another 12 dessert wines by the glass. Half bottles that I offer are almost exclusively moderate to very expensive sweet wines. We sell on average $25,000 a month of high quality wine by the glass with no complaints about the lack of half bottles.

It doesn't surprise me that your restaurant would be the exception to the rule or that other high end restaurants would be as well, however, from my experience it is unusual for most restaurants to have either an interesting selection of wines by the glass or half bottles. I would be happy with either. I do think the situation is slowly improving, though.

[fresco]

Since everything else about restaurants and food service has been studied to death, there must be some research indicating whether knowledgable servers and a good wine selection translates into a better bottom line.

I'd think this would be the case in most restaurants which serve wine, but does anyone have access to such research?

[Mayhaw Man]

I think that with wine service a server who "appears to be knowledgable" is probably just as effective as one who really does know a great deal.

There may be a fair number of customers who have a deep base of knowledge concerning wine, but there is probably a much larger percentage who don't have much knowledge at all and what the customer really needs is to be directed to a decent wine that will complement their meal or course.

My complaint (generally) is that servers are not ready with an answer when I ask a very basic question about a wine. It would seem to me that, considering the profit involved, dining establishments would spend a great deal more time than they do educating servers about specific wine choices for specific dishes. It would appear to me that it would be much better for a server to know a great deal about a few good choices than to have a "general" understanding about all of the wines.

Perhaps in a pre service meeting servers could be instructed as to a few good choices for each course? At least they would be ready with a fairly well versed answer about the wine and it's origins. This would be better than "I would have a nice red sir. It costs plenty and I am sure that you will enjoy it".

Clearly a good sommellier is the answer, but how many places actually have a top notch one on staff? Wines by the glass can be a great deal of fun when dining and are also a good, cost effective way (most of the time ) to try out new things. If there are plenty of choices the reccomendations are important to me and I do not always want to talk to the sommelier about a single glass of wine. Server knowledge would seem to be the key to moving more wine by the glass.

But what do I know? I'm a brewer.

[fresco]

I guess this extends all the way up the ladder. Wine sales, as I understand it, have actually been in decline in the US for some time. Wonder why wine distributors aren't offering free courses to servers and others in restaurants on the wines they distribute, or even on wines generally? Or are they?

[Mark Sommelier]

I guess this extends all the way up the ladder. Wine sales, as I understand it, have actually been in decline in the US for some time. Wonder why wine distributors aren't offering free courses to servers and others in restaurants on the wines they distribute, or even on wines generally? Or are they?

They are.

[Pan]

I'm surprised to hear that wine sales have been on the decline in the U.S. for some time, assuming that goes back to the Clinton boom years. What have people been doing with the money they haven't been spending on wine? Have beer sales skyrocketed?

[tommy]

What have people been doing with the money they haven't been spending on wine? Have beer sales skyrocketed?

buying houses and toys, and having kids.

[docsconz]

Is this true across the board. It has been my understanding that sales of premium wines have been going up at least through the 90's.

[Mayhaw Man]

I'm surprised to hear that wine sales have been on the decline in the U.S. for some time, assuming that goes back to the Clinton boom years. What have people been doing with the money they haven't been spending on wine? Have beer sales skyrocketed?

No. In fact this year was as flat for beer sales in the US as any in recent memory.

While the industry is spinning this by trumpeting this dubious milestone, sales have been particularly poor this winter.

There is a large article in this months Beverage World concerning beer sales in the US. It does not seem to be available on line yet, but I did link to the sight as it might interest many here.

In order to keep volume up brewers seem to be actively getting into smaller and smaller niches for smaller and smaller chunks of market share. It does seem to raise volume, but the whole thing is so advertising driven that it almost doesn't make sense, financially speaking.