The Food Safety and Home Kitchen Hygiene/Sanitation Topic

[johnnyd]

This approach has only come back to bite me in the ass once, while in a small village in Peru. They'd been without power for a few days, and I decided to eat the chorizo and cheese pizza. Who knows, it could have been the sangria served in a shady-looking bottle too. Tasted mighty fine, however.

The Revenge hath struck again!

Slightly OT but I found this little article about new developments regarding the treatment of Motezuma's Revenge, while on the road (or apparently, downtown...)

[Bond Girl]

Well, that's a very fair answer.  I had posted my next (cafeteria) message before you even replied.  I would say that you and I are at opposite ends of the scale on this issue.

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Most likely. Actually, your cafeteria story makes me just now understand why buffets suggest you get fresh plates every time you go up, I always thought it was odd, as the food is going from serving dish to plate, not vice versa. I always kinda though buffets did it just to track how much you were eating so they could kick you out if you had been there for a while...

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Nullo, I guess you never had food poisoning...not the wussy kind od food poisoning that leaves your system in a day or two, but the bad ass kind that attacks your whole system and put you in a hospital for weeks while doctors stand around and scratch their heads.

I used to have the exact same attitude like you and even think that it's the dirt that makes the street food in places like Vietnam taste better. After a near brush with death and many weeks of liquid diet as a result, I now give the "emerging market travel safety" speech to all my friends.

[emmalish]

It's amazing how your body knows where the food poisoning came from too.

I've had a couple of run-ins with violent food poisoning -- once I ended up on a special diet for a month and a half (basically plain white rice, red-skinned apples, and lots of water), and once I ended up passed out my bathroom floor (I'll spare you the nasty details).

Both times, even though I had eaten several things that day, the mere thought of one of the items would make me queasy. There are a couple restaurants I can simply not go back to because I feel ill at the thought. Because of the month and a half long illness, I can't bring myself to eat sushi anymore (except vegetarian), regardless of what restaurant I go to.

[NulloModo]

Nullo, I guess you never had food poisoning...not the wussy kind od food poisoning that leaves your system in a day or two, but the bad ass kind that attacks your whole system and put you in a hospital for weeks while doctors stand around and scratch their heads.

I used to have the exact same attitude like you and even think that it's the dirt that makes the street food in places like Vietnam taste better.  After a near brush with death and many weeks of liquid diet as a result, I now give the "emerging market travel safety" speech to all my friends.

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I've had food poisoning once. It layed me out for about a week, and I couldn't keep anything solid down, but I didn't have to go to the hospital. Then again, it wasn't due to anything unsanitary, it was my own damn fault because I ate some sausage that I knew I hadn't cooked nearly well enough...

Oh well, I still love those sausages, though I do attempt to make sure they are past medium-rare now.

[TheFoodTutor]

Both times, even though I had eaten several things that day, the mere thought of one of the items would make me queasy. There are a couple restaurants I can simply not go back to because I feel ill at the thought. Because of the month and a half long illness, I can't bring myself to eat sushi anymore (except vegetarian), regardless of what restaurant I go to.

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When you contacted the health department about your illness, surely they dealt appropriately with the restaurant in question?

[emmalish]

Both times, even though I had eaten several things that day, the mere thought of one of the items would make me queasy. There are a couple restaurants I can simply not go back to because I feel ill at the thought. Because of the month and a half long illness, I can't bring myself to eat sushi anymore (except vegetarian), regardless of what restaurant I go to.

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When you contacted the health department about your illness, surely they dealt appropriately with the restaurant in question?

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It doesn't matter whether it's been dealt with, I still can't do it. It's not a conscious decision, it's like a self-defence mechanism gone out-of-control. Is it just me?

[TheFoodTutor]

It doesn't matter whether it's been dealt with, I still can't do it. It's not a conscious decision, it's like a self-defence mechanism gone out-of-control. Is it just me?

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I'm sorry. What I meant was, surely the health department dealt with the restaurant so that other people would not get sick from the same source, regardless of whether you're food preferences were irrevocably changed. It's easy to see how it could turn one off of sushi to get sick on it once, but it would still be nice to see that the health department did an investigation and determined the cause (cross contamination, improper temperatures) of the illness.

[emmalish]

Oh, sorry. I misunderstood. I can only assume they were dealt with. I was much younger when this happened and it didn't even occur to me to report them to the health department. I contacted the restaurants and spoke to the managers though. For minor cases of food poisoning (where I'm just feeling a bit "off" after a meal) I don't even bother with that much.

Does everyone else report these instances?

[therese]

It's amazing how your body knows where the food poisoning came from too.

I've had a couple of run-ins with violent food poisoning -- once I ended up on a special diet for a month and a half (basically plain white rice, red-skinned apples, and lots of water), and once I ended up passed out my bathroom floor (I'll spare you the nasty details).

Both times, even though I had eaten several things that day, the mere thought of one of the items would make me queasy. There are a couple restaurants I can simply not go back to because I feel ill at the thought. Because of the month and a half long illness, I can't bring myself to eat sushi anymore (except vegetarian), regardless of what restaurant I go to.

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Yeah, I had one of those really nightmare bouts once. The initial acute phase while traveling for work in Germany, actually passed out in public, in a small market (where I'd ventured to buy something to re-hydrate myself with before getting on the return plane). Sick for weeks and weeks, lost lots of weight, etc.

The phenomenon whereby you have difficulty eating something that your body associates with food poisoning (whether or not it was the culprit, and even if you didn't even have food poisoning but a viral enteritis instead) is called "bait shyness", aka "sauce bearnaise" phenomenon. You will likely eventually get over your aversion, but it can take years and years (and sometimes never).

[TheFoodTutor]

Oh, sorry. I misunderstood. I can only assume they were dealt with. I was much younger when this happened and it didn't even occur to me to report them to the health department. I contacted the restaurants and spoke to the managers though. For minor cases of food poisoning (where I'm just feeling a bit "off" after a meal) I don't even bother with that much.

Does everyone else report these instances?

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I would, absolutely. If unsafe conditions are in place in a restaurant, and they are bad enough to make me (a healthy adult) sick, they could kill a young child or an elderly person. I'd feel an absolute responsibility to report it, be tested through a doctor and through the health department, have the bacteria in my stool or vomitus matched with the original source and have the problem stopped.

[touaregsand]

There's probably more crap *in* those hot dogs than there is on that guy's hands.  Just sayin'...

I'm probably on NulloModo's end of the spectrum.  Unless it is blatantly dropped on the ground in front of me, has hair or other body parts on it, or smells/looks funky, I'll probably eat it.  Regarding the floor... if it's my floor, the 5 second rule applies.

This approach has only come back to bite me in the ass once, while in a small village in Peru.  They'd been without power for a few days, and I decided to eat the chorizo and cheese pizza.  Who knows, it could have been the sangria served in a shady-looking bottle too.  Tasted mighty fine, however.

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I'll join you and Nullo.

I'm a bit hypocritical when it comes to what turns me off. Mostly it involves what I see as opposed to what I know happens while I'm not looking. I know how food is prepared in a commercial kitchen, even the cleanest French restaurants with highly trained kitchen staff... Human beings are making the food. Those pretty plates at the high end places, lots of little fingers all over it. Pre-made components "assembled" for service. Ya think that Keller's kitchen staff have naturally cleaner hands then the sandwich guys you see in deli? I've never seen a commercial kitchen with a wash basin next to every station. If someone on the line touches his hair, wipes his nose with the back of his hand ya think he's gonna run to the basin to wash his hands?

[TheFoodTutor]

Incidentally, I don't recommend calling the manager or owner of the restaurant as your first action when contracting a case of food poisoning. Restaurants of every kind get calls frequently from people who believe they've gotten sick on something or other they ate the other day, and they have no way of distinguishing the real from the fake. I know this will sound hard to believe, but people will even ask for free food coupons when making a complaint about receiving food poisoning, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If the food made you sick, why would you want more of it for free? Having been on the receiving end of some of these calls, I can only say that I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't heard it with my own ears.

And on the other hand, there are also unscrupulous restaurant owners who are just the sorts who'd be likely to be running a dirty kitchen that could make you sick. The health department defines a food poisoning outbreak as two or more people who ate the same thing at the same time, both of them getting sick. Now, if you were a restaurant owner, and you received two calls in the same day from two individuals who both ate the chicken francese a couple nights ago, you'd probably prefer that they call you rather than the health department, so that you can offer them some kind of compensation and keep it on the DL, but I'd personally prefer that you call the health department so that the problem can not only be verified, but it can also be fixed.

[emmalish]

I would never hesitate now to contact the health department for a major bout of food poisoning (as I said, I was much younger when it happened earlier and it just didn't even occur to me). But would you still contact them even for something so minor that you weren't really sick, but just feeling a bit off? Do you have to be so sick that you're throwing up or running to the bathroom every five minutes to justify a call to the health department?

[SuzySushi]

I know this will sound hard to believe, but people will even ask for free food coupons when making a complaint about receiving food poisoning, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If the food made you sick, why would you want more of it for free?

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Off-topic but, when I've complained to manufacturers about defective food packages -- one particular incident comes to mind where a supposedly vacuum-packed pouch didn't seal properly and the food inside was spoiled -- they've ALWAYS sent me scads of coupons. Why would I want to try their products again when I don't trust their packaging method? (Or maybe this is their cheap way of buying off consumers, if no one cashes the coupons in.)

[TheFoodTutor]

. But would you still contact them even for something so minor that you weren't really sick, but just feeling a bit off? Do you have to be so sick that you're throwing up or running to the bathroom every five minutes to justify a call to the health department?

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Well, if I was just feeling a little bit off, how would I know for sure that I had food poisoning? Like most people who aren't doctors, and even some who are, I'm not always sure what's making me sick, unless there's an obvious cause. For instance, I've had more than my share of hangovers in my life, so when I wake up in the morning feeling headache and nausea, I'm pretty sure that I know what happened, especially if my tongue feels kinda furry.

But if I ate something for lunch today, and I feel sick at around 8 p.m., has the incubation time for this particular food-born illness already passed? Or am I just feeling a little lactose intolerant today, and it was really my yogurt at breakfast that's making me gurgly? Or am I having a bout of Irritable Bowel Syndrome? Or possibly a virus?

These things are all very subjective for most people, and most people have had a few cases of food poisoning in their lives, and in many cases they attributed it to the thing they ate recently that they thought was most suspect, but that's not always the correct assumption. The only way to know for sure is to do a test.

Would I call anyone over a minor stomach upset? Probably not. But if I had an illness that lasted for more than a day, or even more than a few hours, and I suspected it was food related, I'd definitely contact someone.

[therese]

These things are all very subjective for most people, and most people have had a few cases of food poisoning in their lives, and in many cases they attributed it to the thing they ate recently that they thought was most suspect, but that's not always the correct assumption. The only way to know for sure is to do a test.

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And even then you may not end up with an answer, particularly if it's a toxin-mediated episode (the most common): brief (usually less than 12 hours, though you'll feel pretty drained for a while) and violent. You'd pretty much have to get a sample of the food (instead of a sample of, um, whatever), and by the time the health department manages to scoot over to the restaurant it may be gone (consumed, thrown out, whatever). Only if you've been infected with something that can either be seen in a direct prep (believe me, you don't want me to go into details here) or cultured in a microbiology lab (something like Salmonella, for instance) or detected serologically (looking serially at your immune response) can the etiology actually be established. And getting a suitable sample can be harder than it sounds---by the time you feel like crawling out of your house to see the doctor that boat's pretty much sailed.

[rooftop1000]

The only time I got full blown food poisoning was from my own mother...camping trip ...late for bus ...roast beef sandwich no mayo... 6 hour trip...got lost ...extra 4 hours ...set up and unpack in the dark.....ahhhh eat "bag dinner"...well we were late in the morning right? the groups coolers were put on the bus first and our bags were last....dinner was in a backpack for 10 hours

Hey it tasted fine

[TheFoodTutor]

These things are all very subjective for most people, and most people have had a few cases of food poisoning in their lives, and in many cases they attributed it to the thing they ate recently that they thought was most suspect, but that's not always the correct assumption. The only way to know for sure is to do a test.

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And even then you may not end up with an answer, particularly if it's a toxin-mediated episode (the most common): brief (usually less than 12 hours, though you'll feel pretty drained for a while) and violent. You'd pretty much have to get a sample of the food (instead of a sample of, um, whatever), and by the time the health department manages to scoot over to the restaurant it may be gone (consumed, thrown out, whatever). Only if you've been infected with something that can either be seen in a direct prep (believe me, you don't want me to go into details here) or cultured in a microbiology lab (something like Salmonella, for instance) or detected serologically (looking serially at your immune response) can the etiology actually be established. And getting a suitable sample can be harder than it sounds---by the time you feel like crawling out of your house to see the doctor that boat's pretty much sailed.

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Well, in my case, I'd still try. There are so many misconceptions about food safety, as with the perception that wearing gloves = safer than not wearing gloves, that I'd far prefer to establish a clear connection between what I ate and when I got sick over just saying, "Oh, don't ever eat at that Mexican joint called Escupimos en su Alimento. I got sick from a taco there, and man-oh-man, I'll never eat that kinda crap again!"

There have been verifiable strains of bacteria that could be traced to specific sources, like the outbreak from the waterpark here in Georgia and a number of other cases. Being in the restaurant industry, I know I'm biased, but I really don't like to contribute to alarmist behavior that makes people scared of their food. So, with my background, I tend to fall back on science wherever possible.

Edited February 24, 2005 by TheFoodTutor (log)

[Bond Girl]

In this country, the food poisoning tend to be some what bacteria related so you guys are probably right not to get too crazed about germs. In the case of my food poisoning, the culprit was actually a parasite that decided to take up resident in my intestines. What's even worse was, even though they were able to fly me to a very well equipped hospital, it took the doctors several weeks to identify the parasite in question. So, I think it is sometimes wise to be a bit more careful when traveling.

[dans]

I've had food poisoning once.  It layed me out for about a week, and I couldn't keep anything solid down, but I didn't have to go to the hospital.  Then again, it wasn't due to anything unsanitary, it was my own damn fault because I ate some sausage that I knew I hadn't cooked nearly well enough...

Oh well, I still love those sausages, though I do attempt to make sure they are past medium-rare now.

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So what makes you think it was your own fault? Or not unsanitary? The food had to be innoculated with some sort of microbial agent. Since you only cooked it (my assumption) it must have been some unsanitary condition from a handler before you. Whether it was at the slaughter house or the sausage factory (said in a very nice way) what matters is that you were made ill because of it.

I'm not saying you have no responsibility in this. You know the risks of eating food not thoroughly cooked. But you didn't cause the illness, you only took part in it.

Dan

[Sam Salmon]

The original question was about the handling of the fish-I'd say the customer missed out on a wondeful dinner.

As well I've been laid low in many countries but the worst I ever had was 3 weeks of agony followed by 6 month stint of absolute misery that came from a 'darling place' right here in Vancouver-by-the-sea.

[chefzadi]

There's a huge wholesale seafood market in Seoul. I loved that place. The fresh and funky smell. Not alot of wax paper, gloves yes but not the disposable kind. I recall the vendors had hoses and detergent. They cleaned their boards after each use.

Bond girl's experience. Well, I would have been put off by it, not so much for health reasons. It just looks messy. I probably have still bought the fish, I don't think that I'd go back.

[therese]

And even then you may not end up with an answer...

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Well, in my case, I'd still try. There are so many misconceptions about food safety, as with the perception that wearing gloves = safer than not wearing gloves, that I'd far prefer to establish a clear connection between what I ate and when I got sick over just saying, "Oh, don't ever eat at that Mexican joint called Escupimos en su Alimento. I got sick from a taco there, and man-oh-man, I'll never eat that kinda crap again!"

There have been verifiable strains of bacteria that could be traced to specific sources, like the outbreak from the waterpark here in Georgia and a number of other cases. Being in the restaurant industry, I know I'm biased, but I really don't like to contribute to alarmist behavior that makes people scared of their food. So, with my background, I tend to fall back on science wherever possible.

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Oh, I'd definitely still try, and in the case of the waterpark contamination it was particularly crucial, as a number of people were getting quite ill and even dying. What they had was actually fairly obvious (a toxin-producing E. coli that shut down their kidneys, the same thing as the Jack in the Box outbreak out west a few years ago), the question was figuring out where they'd gotten it (because it wasn't from food, but from the water, presumably originally introduced by a swimmer who'd been ill but apparently felt well enough to go to the waterpark that or the previous day) and coming up with a remedy (using more drastic chlorination at the waterpark).

Isolated instances are not usually so carefully worked up, as it's not just difficult from a microbiological point of view, but from an epidemilogic point of view: if only one person is sick then it's difficult to even know where to start looking. As you point out, often the presumed source of the food poisoning isn't really the culprit.

In the end it is a good idea to call the health department, of course, as you may be the one of the early victims in an outbreak.

As for the original post re the no gloves handling of the fish, I'd have been fine with it.

[TheFoodTutor]

As far as the situation in the original post, I probably would have been fine with it, too, but more than that, I wouldn't have insisted that the woman throw the skate away and get me another one. If I'd felt the practice was unsafe, I'd have just shook my head, told her that I'd changed my mind and she can put the fish back. Food workers perceive orders from customers as to how they are doing their jobs, ("throw that away and get me another" or "put on gloves") as hostile behavior, and I don't speak to anyone that way if I'm planning on buying something from them that I'm going to eat.

I have, of course, declined some foodstuffs that I felt were prepared in a manner that disgusted me, as when I had an alcoholic roommate who made all kinds of sickening concoctions while he was drunk. I always just smiled, and said that I'd had a large lunch.

[gourmande]

Ok, now how about food safety issues (handling, preparation et al) on the home front where there are no regulations, inspectors or other quality control mechanisms in place?

You know your standards, but do you always know those of your host? Case in point:

Last summer we (and others) bowed out of a BBQ at a friend's house because of other commitments, and thank goodness we did. It seems this friend's thrifty ways prevented her from ditching chicken that had clearly gone bad. Instead, she rinsed it off, grilled it and fed it to her husband - she decided to not eat hers because it "didn't look right" to her. To make matters worse she told us that part of the problem may have been that it wasn't fully cooked through either!

Needless to say her husband became violently ill, spent two days in hospital and a full week in recovery, looking and sounding like death itself.

I have eaten there once since that happened, but as you can imagine, many others find an excuse to bow out because they were troubled by the risk she took then and are concerned that she could be a "repeat offender".

How would you deal with a similar situation?