Is there such a thing as truly excellent decaf?

[slkinsey]

Well... I don't have any trouble believing that using "saturated" soaking water mitigates the absorbtion of flavor agents into the water to some degree. But I do have a hard time believing that it eliminates it entirely.

Think about it: soaking coffee beans in hot water makes... well, coffee (albeit green coffee). Try soaking some coffee beans in hot coffee, then drying them out and brewing with them. I can't see any possible way this wouldn't negatively impact the flavor.

[tommy]

to paraphrase my father, you guys know just enough to be dangerous.

[Varmint]

Hell, I got a damn Ph.D. in protein chemistry and was hardly dangerous. It would have taken me another 20 years of developing my hunchback before I was truly a menace.

That's why I went into law, so I could be dangerous immediately.

[Fat Guy]

Well... I don't have any trouble believing that using "saturated" soaking water mitigates the absorbtion of flavor agents into the water to some degree. But I do have a hard time believing that it eliminates it entirely.

Think about it: soaking coffee beans in hot water makes... well, coffee (albeit green coffee). Try soaking some coffee beans in hot coffee, then drying them out and brewing with them. I can't see any possible way this wouldn't negatively impact the flavor.

I hate to tell you this, dude, but a few days ago I replaced all the coffee in your home with Folgers crystals and you didn't even notice.

[slkinsey]

I'm not sure how much one needs to know:

1. Just about everyone in the world agrees that decaffeinated coffee, regardless of process used, does not taste the same (or as good) as coffee that has not been processed this way.

2. The Swiss Water people claim that by using "saturated" soaking water, their process removes only the caffeine (a tasteless and odorless substance) and none of the flavor agents.

3. These two statements are at odds.

4. One doesn't have to know all that much about chemistry and coffee to understand that it is highly unlikely that the Swiss Water system manages to remove 97% of the caffeine from the coffee beans without dissolving some of the flavor agents into the soaking liquid.

5. Therefore, it is highly likely that Swiss Water's statement in #2 is not entirely correct.

[slkinsey]

I hate to tell you this, dude, but a few days ago I replaced all the coffee in your home with Folgers crystals and you didn't even notice.

Curses!

[Fat Guy]

Decaf coffee does seem to suck universally. This would appear to be a problem for the Swiss water theory.

[JAZ]

I'm not an expert by any means, but I have read (in, for example, Corby Kummer's Joy of Coffee) that the water process of decaffeination, although preferred by some because it's believed by them to be safer (in some ill-defined sense), does not result in coffee that tastes as good as the chemically processed decaf. The reason is that chemical solvents can remove just the caffeine, without removing the other soluble solids in the beans. So, no need to put them back in.

The moral of the story seems to be to find a purveyor that uses the chemical rather than the water process. I think Peet's does this, because their dark roast decaf is surprisingly good. I mean, I can tell the difference between it and other Peet's blends, but only because it's a little one-dimensional with less body than the blends I usually buy. But I'd actually take Peet's dark roast decaf over their regular house blend, and I'd certainly prefer it to many caffeinated coffees from other purveyors.

[tommy]

I'm not sure how much one needs to know:

1. Just about everyone in the world agrees that decaffeinated coffee, regardless of process used, does not taste the same (or as good) as coffee that has not been processed this way.

2. The Swiss Water people claim that by using "saturated" soaking water, their process removes only the caffeine (a tasteless and odorless substance) and none of the flavor agents.

3. These two statements are at odds.

4. One doesn't have to know all that much about chemistry and coffee to understand that it is highly unlikely that the Swiss Water system manages to remove 97% of the caffeine from the coffee beans without dissolving some of the flavor agents into the soaking liquid.

5. Therefore, it is highly likely that Swiss Water's statement in #2 is not entirely correct.

i guess you've got it then.

[phaelon56]

I've never had good decaf coffee in a restaurant and rarely had it in a cafe but does it exist? Absolutely. Having once been a certified souse who none the less retained taste buds, I dont'n think comparing high quality decaf coffee to de-alcoholized wine and beer is a fair comparison. I'll admit that the decaffeination process affects the flavor but a good quality decaf bean, properly roasted, ground fresh and prepared properly, yields a very satsifying cup - far better relative to regular coffee than de-alcoholized wine and beer is relative to regular wine and beer.

When I did drink alcohol, if I chose to have somethign non-alcoholic it was never any of the de-alcoholized products as the taste just wasn't there. My current M.O. is to mix decaf 50/50 with regular coffee (or espresso blends) to get half caf. Espresso blends are another story - it's very hard to get a really good decaf espresso blend but word is that Intelligentsia's Black Cat decaf really gets it done.

[Mayhaw Man]

Caffeine is flavorless, odorless, colorless, is it not?

Caffeine is a very bitter alkaloid. While I am not a food chemist (although I do play one on TV ), I would think that the bitterness would affect the overall profile of coffee.

I know that during the development of Abita Root Beer we played around with caffeinated root beer and that the caffeine changed the flavor profile considerably.

Barq's Root Beer contains caffeine and the company says that it has "12.78mg per 6oz" and that they "add it as a flavoring agent for the sharp bitterness". We eventually decided to go without the caffeine.

The by product of this experiment was a 1 qt. container of pure caffeine. Dipping a toungue depressor in about an inch and then ingesting this small amount of caffeine became a very popular way to wake up and get busy in the morning.

All this being said, I have never found a decaf that is worth drinking. These coffees tend to be thin and missing a number of flavors that I associate with coffee enjoyment.

[Jason Perlow]

Caffeine is definitely very bitter and even adding a small amount of it to a product is going to change the flavor profile a lot. The US Army has been testing a caffeine-enhanced chocolate bar for its troops for a while and it is proving to be highly unpopular because of the bitter flavor.

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309082587/html/1.html

[sammy]

I'm no coffee expert and drink primarily high test but I brewed Fairway Market's "Legendary Decaf" for Thanksgiving (many of my guests DEMAND decaf)and it was damn good.

[Mayhaw Man]

Caffeine is definitely very bitter and even adding a small amount of it to a product is going to change the flavor profile a lot. The US Army has been testing a caffeine-enhanced chocolate bar for its troops for a while and it is proving to be highly unpopular because of the bitter flavor.

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309082587/html/1.html

I guess they'll just have to stick with speed

[slkinsey]

Barq's Root Beer contains caffeine and the company says that it has "12.78mg per 6oz" and that they "add it as a flavoring agent for the sharp bitterness". .

Interestingly, Diet Barq's has no caffeine and is just as sharp tasting IMO.

[slkinsey]

It's also interesting that several sources say caffeine is bitter while most others, like this one from The Ohio State University Medical Center say it is "colorless, odorless and flavorless." Maybe they don't consider "bitter"a flavor?

[megc]

The moral of the story seems to be to find a purveyor that uses the chemical rather than the water process. I think Peet's does this, because their dark roast decaf is surprisingly good. I mean, I can tell the difference between it and other Peet's blends, but only because it's a little one-dimensional with less body than the blends I usually buy. But I'd actually take Peet's dark roast decaf over their regular house blend, and I'd certainly prefer it to many caffeinated coffees from other purveyors.

I'm with JAZ on this one. Peet's decaf, at least what I've tried which is the Sumatra and the French Roast, is very good. In fact, I believe it's the best decaf coffee I've ever had; I drink it at night when I really want that coffee taste but no caffeine that will inevitably keep me up until 2 or 3am (I'm one of those wierdos that drinks coffee primarily for that rich coffee taste and not the caffeine. That being said, I do drink regularly most of the time). And I too would drink their decaf over a lot of a lot of regular coffee produced by others. I should also mention that I come from the land of Peet's - Berkeley CA - a town which really runs on coffee, and that's not simply because of the presence of Cal - everyone except maybe the Christian Scientists and Mormons drink coffee there. Coffee is a serious thing in that town. I can't tell you how disappointed I was to discover that all they serve here on campus (SUNY Stony Brook) is brown swill.

I've tried Starbucks (ick, Charbucks), Gevalia, Uncommon Grounds, Fairway, Zabars, Illy, Green Mountain, and a number of others, and none of them can compare to Peet's decaf. It's really good! In fact, I think I may go downstairs right now and make a cup.

[jschyun]

I am also biased towards Peets but I will say I had what i thought at the time was a decent cup of decaf at Polly's in Long Beach. However, the decaf had enough caffeine left in it to make me totally wired for the rest of the day. I thought they had made a mistake...but they hadn't.

[phaelon56]

When I tended bar for a caterer for several years.... they had both "decaf" and "regular' carafes to serve coffee at the tables. All they actually served was decaf so the sometimes very fussy patrons could never get caffienated cofee by mistake (although on occasion a few insisted that they had).

We also worked in a kosher kitchen for most of those events so needless to say.... non-dairy creamer (yuch!) was all I ever got to put in my coffee at work.

[herbacidal]

When I tended bar for a caterer for several years.... they had both "decaf" and "regular' carafes to serve coffee at the tables. All they actually served was decaf so the sometimes very fussy patrons could never get caffienated cofee by mistake (although on occasion a few insisted that they had).

When I worked for a caterer, we often only had decaf.

sometimes, when someone asked for caffinated,

i would say let me come back,

circle around the corner/pillar, and come back.

[maggiethecat]

Yes, there is such a thing as truly excellent decaf; I'm hoarding some in my freezer should I have guests who request it.

It was a present, along with a bag of the Real Stuff, from home-roaster extraordinaire-eGull guajolote. I'm not sure where he buys his beans, and I haven't had a true side-by-side tasting with his "regular," but I cann assure you that his decaf is better than most people's Fully Leaded.

Home roast that decaf!

[guajolote]

Yes, there is such a thing as truly excellent decaf; I'm hoarding some in my freezer should I have guests who request it.

It was a present, along with a bag of the Real Stuff, from home-roaster extraordinaire-eGull guajolote. I'm not sure where he buys his beans, and I haven't had a true side-by-side tasting with his "regular," but I cann assure you that his decaf is better than most people's Fully Leaded.

Home roast that decaf!

it was some sort of columbian bean. it's not as good as regular, but i agree that it is better than a lot of regular coffee.

[melkor]

Home roast that decaf!

It's true that you can make pretty damn good coffee using home roasted decaf. The decaf I roast is Ethiopian Ghimbi (MC Decaf) - no one would guess it's decaf.

[phaelon56]

Hey Guajalote - it's totally off topic for the C&T forum but in light of your current sig line.... this post in General Food Topics should be of interest

The Bologna Car Seat

[slkinsey]

It's a no-brainer, I think, that home-roasted decaf will often be better than pre-roasted regular coffee. Home roasting it simply so much better that the decaffeinated beans would really have to suck for a pre-roasted coffee to close that gap.

But... I still doubt there is a decaffeinated bean that is competitive with a regular bean of similar quality if both are home roasted.