Vancouver, BC, and Western Canada Burger Club

[Andrew Morrison]

Vancouver Coastal Health

Health Protection Program

800 - 601 W Broadway.

Vancouver, BC. V5Z 4C2

Phone: 604.736.2866

Fax: 604.736.8651

Website is here.

Edited April 11, 2006 by Andrew Morrison (log)

[nwyles]

From what I understand.....it really is not enforced in any way.  The health inspectors REQUEST restaurants to cook their ground beef to 160 degrees F, as a safety precaution. (Internal temp)

←

Thanks. This is some serious burger research. :-)

Is this first hand information that you have?

From what I can tell, it is the Ecoli bacteria that the inspectors are attempting to protect the restaurants and consumers from, and apparently this bacteria will die at 155F. (this is just some online numbers I have found). So it makes sense the inspectors would request the restaurants to comply to a 160F temperature, but it is definetly not a "real rule". Something to protect the restaurants liability, because they do not want to incur the additional cost of obtaining a good quality product, or perhaps their clientele does not want to pay.

In addition to this 160F is not always considered well done. I have seen some sites that state 160F is medium, so I suspect some pink is allowable. But it is usually the "pink" that the restaurants refuse to serve.

I need to call a "food inspector", does anybody know how to contact one?

←

The Irishgirl is a serious chef in a serious restaurant. I have stated elsewhere in this forum that there are no enforcable rules as to the cooking of a burger.

The health inspector have bigger fish to fry. If you are looking for a final response, try gerald @ vera's As burgers are pretty much his world, he could help

[Ling]

I had these awesome mini hangar steak burgers at Casadia Lounge in Seattle. They're only $1.50 at Happy Hour and it comes with blue cheese! The meat is cooked all the way through but it's still juicy and the flavour of the meat is great. Would love to try one in Vancouver...medium-rare in the middle. Mmm.

[flowbee]

i love blue cheese on steak...i wonder if anyone would serve a blue cheese burger?

[gerald]

i love blue cheese on steak...i wonder if anyone would serve a blue cheese burger?

←

we have blue cheese as an cheese option for our burgers

[canucklehead]

Blue cheese is available at Vera's and I think.. HSG. Blue cheese is particularly good on their respective lamb burgers.

[annanstee]

My one beef (ahem, did NOT intend that) with Moderne Burgers is that there are no damn pickles in the house... NO PICKLES!

[eatvancouver]

To further fuel the debate, not one, but two reviews of Vera's appear on this week's edition of eatvancouver. Expect another one written by egullet's own Lorna Yee next week, to boot.

Fair is fair, but I do hope gerald is enjoying his 500 hits a day of free publicity.

Edited April 17, 2006 by eatvancouver (log)

[fud]

I finally made my way out to Fat Burger last week to see what all the hubbub was all about. Apprently not much.

The place is decorated in an attempt at a diner style but the posters were all musicians and I wasn't sure if I was in a hard rock cafe or a burger shack. As a weird aside the bathroom was playing what I could only describe as porn music (or perhaps a dubbed porn film?). But these are all just ambience comments and the real question was - are the burgers good?

I didn't get the impression this was the type of place to request a burger done medium but i did note that they had signs everywhere stating that they COOK their burgers fresh when you order em. Oh. So it's not McDonalds. Well I kinda knew that already. What I didn't notice where big declarations that the meat is brought in fresh every day and ground on site. Now that would impress me

I got the 1/3lb patty and loaded it with everything imaginable including the chilli. The burger was a little dry but otherwise pretty good. I had to try Sandy's to get the actual patty flavour since mine tasted like - well - chilli. I liked the flavour of the patty but for some reason the 1/3lb felt small. Maybe it had lost some moisture and shrunk?

Would I go back for the burgers? yeah maybe but I don't know if I'd go back for THAT burger at THAT price. It was pretty steep for what they advertise as "better than fast food".

The search continiues.

[gerald]

I have changed my photo I hope everyone likes it.

photo didn't take sorry

edited due to my stupidity (which is unquestioned)

Edited April 17, 2006 by gerald (log)

[lauraf]

From what I understand.....it really is not enforced in any way.  The health inspectors REQUEST restaurants to cook their ground beef to 160 degrees F, as a safety precaution. (Internal temp)

There are many companies out there that use questionable practices/facilities/conditions for their ground beef....so especially stuff that you get from the supermarket should be cooked medium well to well done.

However...if you are grinding your own beef from a solid piece of say sirloin or chuck and using it right away....have it medium rare!  It will taste so much better!  If it were illegal to serve rare  or raw ground beef, then no restaurants would have beef tartare on their menus. 

Now...when are you going to have burger club meeting on a Tuesday or Wednesday?

←

Regarding requesting burgers prepared at less-than-medium, at every local place I have been I ask for it to be cooked 'as rare as possible' given their understood limitations. Noone has ever actually brought me a blue-rare burger. Noone has ever brought me anything other than a medium or well-done burger, at least here in Canada. Usually they give the explanation that the degree 'doneness' they are licensed to serve, i.e medium/medium-well, is the best they can offer, because of the internal temperature that the meat must, ummm, meet . (In the States, I am able to be totally indulgent and ask for medium rare and actually get it. Yum. Juices all over the plate. Sidebar.)

So my question is that if there is no actual law about doneness, AND I trust the chosen dining joint in terms of product quality, can I/should I badger an ignorant server to give'r as I want? Do any restaurants in town offer burgers cooked at a rarer temp than the standard medium/well?

[gerald]

From what I understand.....it really is not enforced in any way.  The health inspectors REQUEST restaurants to cook their ground beef to 160 degrees F, as a safety precaution. (Internal temp)

There are many companies out there that use questionable practices/facilities/conditions for their ground beef....so especially stuff that you get from the supermarket should be cooked medium well to well done.

However...if you are grinding your own beef from a solid piece of say sirloin or chuck and using it right away....have it medium rare!  It will taste so much better!  If it were illegal to serve rare  or raw ground beef, then no restaurants would have beef tartare on their menus. 

Now...when are you going to have burger club meeting on a Tuesday or Wednesday?

←

Regarding requesting burgers prepared at less-than-medium, at every local place I have been I ask for it to be cooked 'as rare as possible' given their understood limitations. Noone has ever actually brought me a blue-rare burger. Noone has ever brought me anything other than a medium or well-done burger, at least here in Canada. Usually they give the explanation that the degree 'doneness' they are licensed to serve, i.e medium/medium-well, is the best they can offer, because of the internal temperature that the meat must, ummm, meet . (In the States, I am able to be totally indulgent and ask for medium rare and actually get it. Yum. Juices all over the plate. Sidebar.)

So my question is that if there is no actual law about doneness, AND I trust the chosen dining joint in terms of product quality, can I/should I badger an ignorant server to give'r as I want? Do any restaurants in town offer burgers cooked at a rarer temp than the standard medium/well?

←

Hi Laura

Unfortunately the reality is that virtually anytime you give someone a burger with any pink in it< they send it back and tell you it is undercooked. We are constantly working with our staff on cook times and doneness, and by ensuring that the burger is a 160 degrees with an internal probe does tell you that the burger is cooked sufficiently to kill any bacteria. How many places actually test that correctly, using a correctly calibrated probe. Probably not many, further hoe many use the probe, the burger is not upto temp and de-contaminate the probe with an alcohol swab, not many.

We are working with all our stores to do probes and temp checks on a regular basis, but it still a work in progress.

By the way, the reason that burger places are reluctant to do any burgers mid rare or even medium is because if someone actually got sick liability would fall on the restaurant.

I have heard of places actually having waivers to sign if people want their burgers done rare-mid rare or medium.

[flowbee]

i can certainly understand if customers didn't ask for their burger to be medium in the first place, that they would send it back to be cooked some more. but if a customer requests a medium burger, they should be able to get one -- especially if your meat is ground fresh and you know where it comes from.

i'll sign anything to get a medium burger.

[lauraf]

i can certainly understand if customers didn't ask for their burger to be medium in the first place, that they would send it back to be cooked some more. but if a customer requests a medium burger, they should be able to get one -- especially if your meat is ground fresh and you know where it comes from.

i'll sign anything to get a medium burger.

←

Indeed! Or better, medium-rare. Or is that dangerous? When my dad used to barbeque burgers for us they were medium rare - was that playing with fire? (sorry )

[Pez]

Hi, fellow burger lovers.

Just a reminder that the Burger Club is meeting on Sunday, April 30th at 6pm at Burgers Etc. Their address is 4091 Hastings Street, Burnaby, BC.

I have about about 10 people who have PM'd me that they are coming so will make reservations since it is a small venue. Thanks.

See you then,

Cheers,

T

[fud]

Thanks Pez,

I see they have the "voted best burger" news on their web site

In case people need directions:

[MAP]

I may have to try their pulled pork sandwich before the meeting

[lauraf]

Hi, fellow burger lovers.

Just a reminder that the Burger Club is meeting on Sunday, April 30th at 6pm at Burgers Etc. Their address is 4091 Hastings Street, Burnaby, BC.

I have about about 10 people who have PM'd me that they are coming so will make reservations since it is a small venue. Thanks.

See you then,

Cheers,

T

←

Oy - thanks for rubbing it in. Not allowed to drive, travel, or do anything at all because of my neck issues. Fill me in on the details - I am jealous! But I am really most curious about how Vancouver diners are supposed to request their burgers done to their liking - if it is legal to serve a burger rarer than medium than why won't restaurants do it upon request - unless it's a health threat? And if it is dangerous to serve hamburger beef at anything rarer than medium at a restaurant, than is it problematic to cook it only to medium-rare on our home grill?

[gerald]

Hi, fellow burger lovers.

Just a reminder that the Burger Club is meeting on Sunday, April 30th at 6pm at Burgers Etc. Their address is 4091 Hastings Street, Burnaby, BC.

I have about about 10 people who have PM'd me that they are coming so will make reservations since it is a small venue. Thanks.

See you then,

Cheers,

T

←

Oy - thanks for rubbing it in. Not allowed to drive, travel, or do anything at all because of my neck issues. Fill me in on the details - I am jealous! But I am really most curious about how Vancouver diners are supposed to request their burgers done to their liking - if it is legal to serve a burger rarer than medium than why won't restaurants do it upon request - unless it's a health threat? And if it is dangerous to serve hamburger beef at anything rarer than medium at a restaurant, than is it problematic to cook it only to medium-rare on our home grill?

←

Hi Laura

The issue with doneness is that if someone did get sick eventhough they asked for it to be done medium or medium rare, the restaurant could be liable. As for the health threat, even the best cuts of meat can have the ecoli bacteria on them, so once ground if there is any bacteria then undercooking the meat can cause sickness. As I said upthread their are restaurants that will serve less than done burgers but some have gone so far as to make people sign waivers. That being said, those restaurants are in the states, where they had to enact a law (in wisconsin) to prevent obese people from suing restaurants for making them fat, true story.

As an aside the ecoli bacteria is in every persons intestinal tract, sometimes it takes a little push to get that little sucker going.

[Feedbag]

Sorry I'm going to miss the burger "meat" this weekend,

since it's in my 'hood. I look forward to the reviews.

On the bacteria issue, here's what I don't get: didn't we

all eat undercooked hamburgers growing up? I don't recall

people keeling over and croaking from ecoli back then. Is

it really a new bacteria, method of cooking, method of processing

or what? 'Course I don't remember hearing about a mad cow

either.

[canucklehead]

Sorry I'm going to miss the burger "meat" this weekend,

since it's in my 'hood. I look forward to the reviews.

On the bacteria issue, here's what I don't get: didn't we

all eat undercooked hamburgers growing up? I don't recall

people keeling over and croaking from ecoli back then. Is

it really a new bacteria, method of cooking, method of processing

or what? 'Course I don't remember hearing about a mad cow

either.

←

I think the beef we eat now (vs growing up in the late 70's) is MUCH more intensively reared. Have you ever been within 20 miles of a modern feedlot? It would put you off beef for a little while (in my case that means 2 hours).

I think that places that grind their own meat would be more open to it. Feenies burgers are quite pink - and I think they are organic free range and ground at the restaurant. Vera's has a tasty organic burger - but I am sure the logistics of managing multiple locations makes having to cook burgers to different levels of doness very very difficult.

Edited April 24, 2006 by canucklehead (log)

[S_tran]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet and i really don't feel like flipping through al the pages and looking, but the BEST burgers has to be from "The Rodeo Drive in" in Surrey. It was recently on the news because it was just bought out and they closed down to open a BANK! (*&^*&^ but anywhoo it was a sad day for the people who frequentt his place. My favourite was the RAMBO burger with 3 lean beef patties, 3 slices cheese, lettuce tomato, and hot peppers. I ordered the works on the last day it was open (the line up was huge i had to wait 1 hour and half for my order but it was worth every minute.) This thing was awesome, greasy, huge, heart cloggingly good. It was sort of a landmark for people who live in surrey and the truckers who pass by to grab a burger on a late night route. I still haven't finished mourning the loss yet...

[Daddy-A]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet and i really don't feel like flipping through al the pages and looking, but the BEST burgers has to be from "The Rodeo Drive in" in Surrey.

HERE, let me save you some flippin' time.

In fact, Burger Club even paid the Rodeo a visit. Their exploits begin HERE. Somehow, I don't think anyone is really going to miss the place.

A.

Damn, I broke a legitimate sweat on that search!

[nwyles]

Sorry I'm going to miss the burger "meat" this weekend,

since it's in my 'hood. I look forward to the reviews.

On the bacteria issue, here's what I don't get: didn't we

all eat undercooked hamburgers growing up? I don't recall

people keeling over and croaking from ecoli back then. Is

it really a new bacteria, method of cooking, method of processing

or what? 'Course I don't remember hearing about a mad cow

either.

←

I think the beef we eat now (vs growing up in the late 70's) is MUCH more intensively reared. Have you ever been within 20 miles of a modern feedlot? It would put you off beef for a little while (in my case that means 2 hours).

I think that places that grind their own meat would be more open to it. Feenies burgers are quite pink - and I think they are organic free range and ground at the restaurant. Vera's has a tasty organic burger - but I am sure the logistics of managing multiple locations makes having to cook burgers to different levels of doness very very difficult.

←

I would be happy to grind a burger to order, and cook it as rare as you liked as long as you were willing to pay the price : a 12 oz New York is about $26.00. You could sub the garlic mashed for fries and sub the vegetables for a bun.

All is well.

Neil

[gerald]

Sorry I'm going to miss the burger "meat" this weekend,

since it's in my 'hood. I look forward to the reviews.

On the bacteria issue, here's what I don't get: didn't we

all eat undercooked hamburgers growing up? I don't recall

people keeling over and croaking from ecoli back then. Is

it really a new bacteria, method of cooking, method of processing

or what? 'Course I don't remember hearing about a mad cow

either.

←

I think the beef we eat now (vs growing up in the late 70's) is MUCH more intensively reared. Have you ever been within 20 miles of a modern feedlot? It would put you off beef for a little while (in my case that means 2 hours).

I think that places that grind their own meat would be more open to it. Feenies burgers are quite pink - and I think they are organic free range and ground at the restaurant. Vera's has a tasty organic burger - but I am sure the logistics of managing multiple locations makes having to cook burgers to different levels of doness very very difficult.

←

Right on all counts lee, (and by virtue of quoting, feedbag too)

A place that grinds their own meat might be more willing to serve a burger mediu rare (however if the surface of the meat has been tainted which is the case most of the time, the best grinder and the best cut can still make you ill), we try to make sure that all of our burgers are pink, juices run clear cooked to 160 degrees, unfortunately you would not believe how many of those burgers come back, further when you try to educate the customer they gloss over thinking we are trying to kill them.

Case in point, I was at our ubc location and I had a burger, in my opinion it was cooked perfectly (as described above). The manager of one of the retail stores was have a dbl burger at the same time, he brought it back "undercooked", i checked it-perfect. Now he said it was no big deal and just cook it a little more on the grill, If any of you are in a restaurant that will put a piece of anything back on the grill after bites are taken out of it, run. We made him a fresh burger that was medium-well to well.

AS for eating undercooked burgers when we were kids the first known strain of the E. coli O157:H7 bacteria was in 1982, so that could explain why the prevelance of the sickness has grown (E. coli O157:H7 is the really bad ecoli)

that being said, ecoli can be found just about anywhere, and often times it might be something totally unrelated to the ground beef, but because of ecoli outbreaks in places like jack in the box the general public thinks it must be the meat.

Anyhow, enough rambling, i will be in to have a burger at hsg, neil, do i need to call in advance for grinding (or can i just show up at 8pm on a saturday night, in a hurry of course) , and i want yam fries with my burger.

[Daddy-A]

For the record, this is the second go 'round for the "medium rare burger" dilemna. HERE is the first time from January 05. Pretty much the same conclusions drawn ... no specific law against it, but very few seem to do it.

Can somebody explain why there would be a concern over a medium rare burger, but NOT steak tartare? I wouldn't have either at McD's, but Nu (where I had an awesome tartare on Sunday) just try and keep me away. Common sense right?

A.