Q&A -- Brining

[FoodMan]

Oh, I cannot believe I forgot to mention this, but the mental image of a pig brining happily in a ( or in my) bath tub struck me as hilarious. I hope Varmint tries it and takes pictures.

Imagining unsuspecting guests walking into the bath room....

FM

[Varmint]

Oh, I cannot believe I forgot to mention this, but the mental image of a pig brining happily in a ( or in my) bath tub struck me as hilarious.  I hope Varmint tries it and takes pictures.

Imagining unsuspecting guests walking into the bath room....

FM

Oh, there will be pictures. I'm more concerned about what the L'il Varmints will think.

[Squeat Mungry]

Excellent course, thanks!

Coincidently I am brining a pork loin right now as my first experiment in brining, which leads me to ask you:

Am I ruining my loin?

I just bought Chez Panisse Cooking and am following their instructions for "Roast Cured Loin". They say to brine the loin for 5 days!! That's a lot longer than 12-18 hours.

I did do a temp check on my fridge, and it averages 38F which is lower than the 40F they specify as maximum, so that seems okay.

I bought the loin Saturday and was planning on cooking it off Thursday... am I screwing up big-time?

Thanks,

Squeat

Edited September 23, 2003 by Squeat Mungry (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Squeat, I will give you the same advice my husband often gives me when I'm in a kitchen quandry: "Try following the directions on the tin." The tin, this time, being the directions from a legitimate source such as "Chez Panise Cooking".

If it makes you feel any better, I frequently use Todd English's recipe for brined porkchops, which calls for leaving double-cut chops in the (sweet) brine for 4 days.

Let 'em soak and enjoy!

[Squeat Mungry]

Margaret,

My thanks to you and your husband. I feel more relaxed now. Can't wait to roast that loin!

Squeat

[fifi]

As I have previously mentioned, I have fallen in love with the flavor of sour orange and pork. I noted that I had seen the addition of up to a half cup of orange juice to a gallon of brine. I tried this and a light taste of orange came through but not as much as I would like. Being wary of too much acid pickling my pork, how much orange juice per gallon do you think I can get away with when brining a pork butt for 24 hours? Do you have any idea what the lowest tolerable pH might be before you are making pork ceviche? (I can get my hands on some test strips or a pH meter. Being a SSB has its rewards.)

Or should I just do the simple brine and inject some pure orange juice before cooking? (BTW... My first experiment was smoked. It was good but the smoking overpowered the other flavors so I would do this recipe in the oven.)

[col klink]

Why not make an orange reduction sauce and throw it in your roasting pan along with your loin? That way you won't pickle your pork and you'll get plenty of orange flavor.

[Fat Guy]

Dave, what I've heard about the koshering process from a variety of sources is that meat needs to be made kosher through brining because brining "draws out the blood." Does brining indeed draw out the blood? And if so, does it draw it all out, or just some of it? And is there anything actually kosher about kosher salt, or is it called kosher salt only because it's used in the koshering process? Isn't it interesting that this is probably the #1 English-language use of the word "kosher" yet, I'm sure, 90+ percent of the consumers of kosher salt aren't Jewish, don't care if their food is kosher, and aren't using the salt to kosher anything?

[MarkinHouston]

Dave, thanks for a great class. I have been bringing for four years and have enjoyed much success, although my wife said our first brined turkey "tastes super--just like ham!" I have a couple of pounds of fresh shrimp that is destined to become etouffee tonight. Since I will peel the shrimp for the etouffee, should I do the 30-minute brine with the shells still on, or should I brine the shrimp and then peel them after brining? I have brined shrimp before doing a shrimp boil, but I have never brined shrimp that were peeled for the cooking process. Thanks. Mark

[Dave the Cook]

As I have previously mentioned, I have fallen in love with the flavor of sour orange and pork. I noted that I had seen the addition of up to a half cup of orange juice to a gallon of brine. I tried this and a light taste of orange came through but not as much as I would like. Being wary of too much acid pickling my pork, how much orange juice per gallon do you think I can get away with when brining a pork butt for 24 hours? Do you have any idea what the lowest tolerable pH might be before you are making pork ceviche? (I can get my hands on some test strips or a pH meter. Being a SSB has its rewards.)

Or should I just do the simple brine and inject some pure orange juice before cooking? (BTW... My first experiment was smoked. It was good but the smoking overpowered the other flavors so I would do this recipe in the oven.)

I won't dispute that a combination of acid and salt can have a significant effect on meat. But I think we should get things in perspective.

Ceviche uses undiluted citrus (usually lime, or a mixture of lime and lemon) juice. The acid content of lemon juice varies; it is in the range of 3.7 to 8.4% citric acid. Let's take 5% as an average value. (I couldn't track down the acid content of limes, but they are weaker than lemons, and oranges, even sour oranges, are weaker still.)

One half-cup of lemon juice (using the quantity fifi supplied, but substituting the known strength of lemon juice for the unknown but weaker strength of sour orange) in one gallon of water dilutes the citric acid concentration to 0.15%. It's certainly true that very small quantities of ingredients can make a huge difference in qualitative results (just add a teaspoon of dish detergent to your gallon of brine if your don't believe me), but 0.15% citric acid is 1/30th the strength of a ceviche recipe. The comparison to actual pickling stretches it more, since pickling solutions are usually about 5% acetic acid, which is much more powerful than citric acid, and uses a more concentrated brine to boot.

Now, having said all that, I think the Colonel's idea for saucing is great. I'd bump the sour orange in your brine to 1 cup and do the sauce, too.

I also think you should borrow that pH meter and let us know what the values pre- and post-OJ are.

One last thing: I don't know a whole lot about organic chemistry, but I know that pH is not nearly the whole story on acid/base strength. We should be careful to draw too many conclusions without additional information.

[col klink]

We should be careful to draw too many conclusions without additional information.

Hah! Too late.

Yes, I was probably overhanded with my comparison with "pickling" the meat. However, I have noticed the difference in the meat texture. If you're brining for less than 4 hours it probably doesn't matter, but for overnight stuff (like every one of my chickens) there is a slight rubbery texture. Most people who don't brine or know nothing of it, when they first try my poultry won't notice it since they are enamored with the juiciness but they just don't see as much as I do nor do they look at it with such a critical eye.

At my last party I smoked up a Salmon and a turkey and did a little apologizing for the turkey since I didn't have my thermometer and they nearly jumped down my throat to suggest that I had created anything less than perfection. Luckily by next year these friends will be like my friends in Seattle and will know the difference. Of course it was nice to receive that kind of adulation after having the critical eye for so long.

[slkinsey]

Dave, what I've heard about the koshering process from a variety of sources is that meat needs to be made kosher through brining because brining "draws out the blood."

Although I am by no means an expert on Kosher law, this does not seem to be entirely accurate. Brine is a solution of liquid and salt. Something that is "brined" is soaked in such a solution.

Kosher law, and I'm going on what I read here, does not specify that meats be brined. Rather, they are soaked in tepid water for at least half an hour, the idea being, I gather, to soak it until the water no longer becomes reddened by the "blood" (actually probably myoglobin and dissolved minerals). After that, the water is drained away, salt is applied to every surface of the meat and the meat is placed where the "blood" can easily drain off. After an hour of salting, the salt is shaken off and the meat is rinsed three times (hopefully under the supervision of a G-d-fearing woman).

I would call this "salting" rather than "brining." As revealed in this thread, not everyone in these forums would agree with me. Call me conservative, but I hold that brining requires brine.

Does brining indeed draw out the blood? And if so, does it draw it all out, or just some of it?

I had always understood that there was no blood in the flesh of animals slaughtered by modern methods anyway. I have placed quotes around "blood" above because I think the salt part of koshering doesn't actually remove any blood. Perhaps one of the meat biz people can chime in here about whether there is any actual blood in meat. Regardless, I am at a complete loss as to any scientific explanation for how salting could "draw blood" out of meat.

The more I poke around the Internet reading about this, the more I think that many of the koshering procedures are designed to eliminate the appearance of blood or things that seem like they might be blood. For example, it's not clear to me that kashering (broiling, more or less) will really get rid of any blood that is potentially in a liver... but I imagine it makes the liver seem less "bloody."

And is there anything actually kosher about kosher salt, or is it called kosher salt only because it's used in the koshering process?

No on one and yes on two. According to the site I referenced at the top, "the salt should not be as fine as flour, as it would dissolve too quickly and would not properly drain the blood. Neither should the salt be too coarse as it may drop from the meat. The salt should be of medium size, like that used for cooking, and should be kept dry enough to be easily sprinkled."

[Dave the Cook]

Dave, what I've heard about the koshering process from a variety of sources is that meat needs to be made kosher through brining because brining "draws out the blood." Does brining indeed draw out the blood? And if so, does it draw it all out, or just some of it?

As I understand it, koshering is not brining. It's a three-step process: soak in cool water, remove and salt (as in: cover it completely), soak again. So it's not really the same situation.

Does koshering or brining "draw out blood"? Not in the clinical sense. Organs aside, meat is muscle, and the muscle of a healthy animal does not harbor blood (the "helathy" part is handled in the inspection that follows butchering). The red stuff that is commonly thought to be blood in meat is myoglobin; actual blood is hemoglobin. No doubt some myoglobin is drawn off in both proceses. The evidence is the pink cast that characterizes a used brine. But not all of it -- diffusion makes that impossible.

I don't want to make this a debate about kasruth, a discussion for which I am educationally and religiously almost completely unarmed. But it seems to me that Jewish dietary law has its roots in food safety. In particular, koshering meat seems to be about protecting the exposed surfaces of butchered meat, and about segregating potentially dangerous substances like blood from wholesome edibles. The idea that it is about surfaces is supported by the alternative treatment for some cuts: you can broil it. In fact, this is the only way that organ meats may be prepared; salting is considered inadequate. This is why steaks, for instance do not need the soak/salt/soak treatment -- because they are destined for the open flame. Perfectly kosher. Or kasher?

And is there anything actually kosher about kosher salt, or is it called kosher salt only because it's used in the koshering process?

As far as I can determine, salt the itself is irrelevant to dietary law, as a consumable. Remember that all the salt is to be washed off in the third step of koshering. It's named for its use, not its provenance. In any case, I think perhaps salt is by definition kosher? Every salt container I can find says it's kosher.

Isn't it interesting that this is probably the #1 English-language use of the word "kosher" yet, I'm sure, 90+ percent of the consumers of kosher salt aren't Jewish, don't care if their food is kosher, and aren't using the salt to kosher anything?

Yes.

[Dave the Cook]

Dave, thanks for a great class. I have been bringing for four years and have enjoyed much success, although my wife said our first brined turkey "tastes super--just like ham!"   I have a couple of pounds of fresh shrimp that is destined to become etouffee tonight. Since I will peel the shrimp for the etouffee, should I do the 30-minute brine with the shells still on, or should I brine the shrimp and then peel them after brining? I have brined shrimp before doing a shrimp boil, but I have never brined shrimp that were peeled for the cooking process.  Thanks.  Mark

Thank you.

The brine will work either way. For dishes where the shrimps will end up peeled anyway, I peel first because the brine is sticky, but that's just my preference.

You might try broiling brined shrimps, shell-on for peel 'n' eat festvities. It's a nice, slightly smoky variation, and the combination of shell and brine gives the shrimps enough protection to withstand the high direct heat.

By the way, I got that ham comment, too.

[Toliver]

Excellent course, thanks!

Coincidently I am brining a pork loin right now as my first experiment in brining, which leads me to ask you:

Am I ruining my loin?    

I just bought Chez Panisse Cooking and am following their instructions for "Roast Cured Loin". They say to brine the loin for 5 days!! That's a lot longer than 12-18 hours.

I did do a temp check on my fridge, and it averages 38F which is lower than the 40F they specify as maximum, so that seems okay.

I bought the loin Saturday and was planning on cooking it off Thursday... am I screwing up big-time?

Thanks,

Squeat

Perhaps Dave should address this.

From my understanding, the longer you brine it, the saltier it will taste (thus getting "tastes like ham" comments from your dinner guests).

I've also read on some of the other eGullet brining threads that brining too long can turn the meat mushy.

Will this happen after a 5 day brine? It seems a little excessive to me.

At what point in the brining timeline does the brining become moot because the deed is already done, so to speak, and any longer in the brine won't help the meat that much?

Edited to add an "s"

Edited September 24, 2003 by Toliver (log)

[Squeat Mungry]

Excellent course, thanks!

Coincidently I am brining a pork loin right now as my first experiment in brining, which leads me to ask you:

Am I ruining my loin?    

I just bought Chez Panisse Cooking and am following their instructions for "Roast Cured Loin". They say to brine the loin for 5 days!! That's a lot longer than 12-18 hours.

I did do a temp check on my fridge, and it averages 38F which is lower than the 40F they specify as maximum, so that seems okay.

I bought the loin Saturday and was planning on cooking it off Thursday... am I screwing up big-time?

Thanks,

Squeat

Perhaps Dave should address this.

From my understanding, the longer you brine it, the saltier it will taste (thus getting "tastes like ham" comment from your dinner guests).

I've also read on some of the other eGullet brining threads that brining too long can turn the meat mushy.

Will this happen after a 5 day brine? It seems a little excessive to me.

At what point in the brining timeline does the brining become moot because the deed is already done, so to speak, and any longer in the brine won't help the meat that much?

I was kind of hoping he would. I'm of half a mind to cook it off tonight, but considering Margaret Pilgrim's advice and the fact that when I follow a recipe with a new technique for the first time, I like to do it "by the book", I probably won't.

Fortunately there are no dinner guests to make remarks.

Squeat

[vogelap]

I've noticed a printing issue with the class on Brining.

Typically, when I see that a new class has been posted, I select PRINT THIS TOPIC. For some reason, with the Brining class, the right side margins are all messed up -- the text flows off the page.

It's not on my end; the class on DRIVE IN cooking printed fine (and it was posted after the Brining class).

Can someone check, fix, and let me know, please?

[MatthewB]

Excellent course, thanks!

Coincidently I am brining a pork loin right now as my first experiment in brining, which leads me to ask you:

Am I ruining my loin?    

I just bought Chez Panisse Cooking and am following their instructions for "Roast Cured Loin". They say to brine the loin for 5 days!! That's a lot longer than 12-18 hours.

I did do a temp check on my fridge, and it averages 38F which is lower than the 40F they specify as maximum, so that seems okay.

I bought the loin Saturday and was planning on cooking it off Thursday... am I screwing up big-time?

Thanks,

Squeat

Perhaps Dave should address this.

From my understanding, the longer you brine it, the saltier it will taste (thus getting "tastes like ham" comments from your dinner guests).

I've also read on some of the other eGullet brining threads that brining too long can turn the meat mushy.

Will this happen after a 5 day brine? It seems a little excessive to me.

At what point in the brining timeline does the brining become moot because the deed is already done, so to speak, and any longer in the brine won't help the meat that much?

Edited to add an "s"

Remember that Paul Bertolli authored Chez Panisse Cooking . . .

In his new book--Cooking by Hand--there's a recipe for pork leg and/or loin that is brined for 5 to 6 days at 32 to 38* F.

The recipe is entitled "Oliveto House-Cured Ham."

[Squeat Mungry]

Interesting. The recipe in Chez Panisse Cooking is called "Roast Loin of Cured Pork".

So am I brining? Curing? Mushing? Or simply ruining?

Tonight will tell.

I'll post the results re: saltiness, mushiness, abject failure, etc.

Cheers,

Squeat

[Dave the Cook]

In my opinion, yes, at five days you are on the verge of wet curing. But real curing is usually done at much higher concentrations, so invoking the word "cure" is descriptive, rather than technical. I'm not saying that this is bad, but for sure it's going to be hammy. Maybe that's what the recipe intends. Brining is pretty formulaic: it's less iffy, for instance, than a recipe that calls for "medium" heat (don't you always wonder how close your "medium" is to the author's?). In brining, this much of this kind of meat + this much salt = a repeatable result.

Many recipes call for brining whole loins two to four days. If you want pork flavor to predominate, I think that's too long, but it's really a matter of taste. I would go two days maximum. After that, you're going to get something less like roasted pork and more like ham. And yes, there is a theoretical limit to brining: eventually all the liquids will come to equilibrium. But because you're mucking around with the physical structure of the meat proteins, and they're undergoing slow but fairly constant change, that's going to take a long time. You'll have gotten the maximum seasoning value from brining long before that stage is reached. On the other hand, I suspect that in the Chez Panisse recipe, those protein changes are part of the effect you're after.

So my advice to you, SM, is to do the recipe as it's written. Otherwise, you'll never know what the author was trying to do. If it comes out too hammy, or to salty, you can change it next time. And please let us know what happens.

[Squeat Mungry]

Thanks very much, Dave.

I would imagine Bertolli must be going for a more cured, "hammy" product with this recipe, then.

I'll be sure to post a post-mortem. Fortunately, I like pork AND ham!

Squeat

[Dave the Cook]

Fortunately, I like  pork AND ham!

Exactly. How can you lose?

[Squeat Mungry]

Okay, the report:

It's good. The texture is great. Moist. Tender. Slices well, shreds well. Not mushy at all.

The taste? Well, it tastes like pork. Maybe a slight trace of ham taste, but not much.

It's fine and will make good leftovers, but the flavor is not really the revelation I was hoping for. I think I'll choose another subject for my next brining experiment.

Thanks Dave the Cook, Margaret Pilgrim and others who gave advice!

Cheers,

Squeat

PS This was also my first time trying out my new Polder thermometer which tracks the temp of the meat AND the ambient temp of the oven. Works like a charm! Now THERE's a revelation!

[Dave the Cook]

Okay, the report:

It's good. The texture is great. Moist. Tender. Slices well, shreds well. Not mushy at all.

The taste? Well, it tastes like pork. Maybe a slight trace of ham taste, but not much.

It's fine and will make good leftovers, but the flavor is not really the revelation I was hoping for. I think I'll choose another subject for my next brining experiment.

Thanks Dave the Cook, Margaret Pilgrim and others who gave advice!

Cheers,

Squeat

PS This was also my first time trying out my new Polder thermometer which tracks the temp of the meat AND the ambient temp of the oven. Works like a charm! Now THERE's a revelation!

Thanks for your report, SM.

I'm glad the brining didn't go overboard. IMO, the most dramatic results come with turkey and chicken breast. Maybe they could be candidates for your next excursion. Check out the Best Chicken Ever thread for ideas.

As for the Polder: yes, they really are great -- wait till you use one on a grill or in a smoker! If you've got a probe that works, protect it like the treasure it is. I don't know if there was a bad batch or what, but for a while it seemed like there were an awful lot of failures. (BTW, the probes are interchangeable among most of the major brands.)

[jminion]

Dave

I was asked a question on brinning that I have never come across before.

If you were to brine chicken , rinse, package and freeze what can you expect when it is thawed?

Jim