Dessert Sales Down

[NeroW]

Mooncakes sound good.

Moonpies are shite.

[tan319]

Jinmyo, with all due respect, you are offending the art of pastry; now that is objectionable.   

I know. I'm sorry.

Like herbacidal, I very much admire the creativity of pastry chefs.

I have seen some stunning objects.

But they don't seem to me to be food.

They had might as well be made of glass and plastic.

Where are you (or rather, aren't you) eating dessert???

Glass and plastic???

I can't imagine unless you are going to some ultra high end places you're seeing a lot of sugar work and heavy duty decor.

A little dessert never hurt's.

You sound like my wifes mother.

[TrishCT]

I grew up in New England where pie (especially blueberry) is eaten for breakfast.

[Bux]

Conceptually, blueberry pie is not all that different from an English muffin and blueberry jam or a croissant and confiture aux myrtilles. I suppose it's sweeter, but it's got more fruit as well as sugar.

[herbacidal]

for me, it's a host of things.

A) that high an amount of sweetness does nothing for me.

for example, whipped cream i think is a tremendous waste of time and effort.

B) I like the idea of fruit at the end of the meal. if nothing else, good palate cleanser. right amount of sweetness also. fruit, just fruit.

C) I've worked with enough pastry chefs. I've helped create desserts. I've seen some heavily worked on pastries. I don't think I've seen anything awe inspiring (in person at least) as far as spun sugar sculpture or whatnot, but I've seen a reasonable amount of creative desserts.

They don't float my boat.

I wouldn't mind being a pastry chef, though. The creation of a memorable dish would be pretty fun. I would very much enjoy that aspect of it.

[Jinmyo]

You sound like my wifes mother.

I am.

[KarenS]

Jimyo, I know that you like white rice a lot. There are your empty calories; it is just like eating a bowl of sugar. Everyone learns to balance their choices!

[tan319]

I wouldn't mind being a pastry chef, though.  The creation of a memorable dish would be pretty fun.  I would very much enjoy that aspect of it.

You wouldn't enjoy it for long, when no one was buying them.

[Jinmyo]

Karen, not so. That's a myth. While brown rice (which I also like very much) has marginally more nutrients they are in a form that is less digestible.

[herbacidal]

I wouldn't mind being a pastry chef, though.  The creation of a memorable dish would be pretty fun.  I would very much enjoy that aspect of it.

You wouldn't enjoy it for long, when no one was buying them.

yea, that's probably true. why i'm not a pastry chef.

[alicia]

Grilled chocolate sandwiches! Must...resist...urge to leave work right now and go home to cook...

[klc14]

I didn't realize people ate mooncakes, I think I read (in the Wall Street Journal, maybe in '98 or '99) that people just gave them but treated them like Christmas fruitcake--too heavy to eat, but a nice "gift."

They sound pretty tasty, actually!

[alanamoana]

unfortunately because of the fruitcake giving syndrome attached to mooncakes, most of them are a little on the crappy side. there are some good ones out there...ask a dedicated chinese person to tell you which brand or type to buy. i had a five nut one the other day and it was pretty tasty.

jinmyo: you won't make friends on the pastry forum with your attitude , but i understand your point of view as you are obviously asian. i am a card carrying pastry chef but my mother is chinese (my father is american). i didn't grow up with sweets and i don't really love most desserts. i love fruit at the end of a meal instead of something insipidly sweet. but i do have to agree with some of the arguments made earlier on this thread. if you are at the french laundry and have just had an incredible meal, wouldn't you feel as if you didn't have the entire experience if you decided to skip dessert? i'm sure, or at least it would be my goal if i were working at such a restaurant that i would make the dessert an integral part of the meal/menu. it would have to match the food and vision that the chef was trying to impart to the guest. therefore, no kahlua mudslide ice cream cake with four ounces of whipped cream on top with hot fudge topping, nuts and a cherry...something simple, clean, in season, balanced in flavor with the "proper" garnish, if there is such a thing. some people don't see that pastry can be more like savory cooking in the approach to sauces, etc. not everything needs a creme anglaise/raspberry coulis swirl...i do things like make reductions from the sauce of the fruit in the dessert, salt is an all important ingredient...that sort of thing.

pass on the desserts at tgif or denny's but at least make an effort to taste something once in a while at a fine dining restaurant. this encourages our ilk to continue in our chosen profession , regardless of how little respect, money, recognition we receive .

p.s. score one for KarenS on the white rice come-back! my mom has to really watch her rice intake now that she has to monitor her blood sugar level every day...imagine a chinese woman watching her rice, what a pain...and she doesn't even eat sweets

[Katherine]

I wouldn't mind being a pastry chef, though.  The creation of a memorable dish would be pretty fun.  I would very much enjoy that aspect of it.

You wouldn't enjoy it for long, when no one was buying them.

yea, that's probably true. why i'm not a pastry chef.

Actually, when I used to bake, it was my BOSS who would get tired of selling the same things over and over again. She'd stop making them, even though people wanted them and were willing to pay $$$ for them.

It never bothered me to give them what they wanted, but give them the best they ever had. I'm sure that, for that type of restaurant, it was just the thing that should've been done, if they'd really wanted to stay in business.

[mpav]

I grew up in New England where pie (especially blueberry) is eaten for breakfast.    

Pie is the perfect breakfast: carbs, fruit and great taste if you've chosen judiciously. Sometimes I add my dairy component with a healthy dollop of whipped cream.

[Jinmyo]

I grew up in New England where pie (especially blueberry) is eaten for breakfast.    

Pie is the perfect breakfast: carbs, fruit and great taste if you've chosen judiciously. Sometimes I add my dairy component with a healthy dollop of whipped cream.

Pie is great for breakfast.

Steak and kidney. Steak and mushroom. Lamb with cumin and chile. Moybray pork pie. Rabbit with rosemary and ceps. Cod cheek and tongue.

[tejon]

Another non sweet tooth here. I do occasionally eat dessert, but I regularly pass up cookies and cakes and candy. I'd usually much rather eat something savory or fruit on it's own.

This drives my husband, who still loves Kool-Aid and Pop-Tarts, mildly insane

[KarenS]

Jimnyo, About white rice. That is the point! It is absorbed very quickly into your body as sugar because it is a simple carbohydrate (like sugar). Brown rice is still a carbohydrate but it possesses fiber (plus the nutrients of the grain). Fiber helps move excess fat through your body (because there is something for the fat to hold on to). White rice may taste good, but it is not good for you- it only gives you calories. There are calories in cake too. We need calories to live. White rice is empty calories.

[KarenS]

Brown Rice White Rice

1 cup 1 cup

Calories 232 223

Protein 4.88 g 4.10 g

Carbohydrate 49.7 g 49.6 g

Fat 1.17 g 0.205 g

Dietary Fiber 3.32 g 0.74 g

Thiamin (B1) 0.223 mg 0.176 mg

Riboflavin (B2) 0.039 mg 0.021 mg

Niacin (B3) 2.730 mg 2.050 mg

Vitamin B6 0.294 mg 0.103 mg

Folacin 10 mcg 4.1 mcg

Vitamin E 1.4 mg 0.462 mg

Magnesium 72.2 mg 22.6 mg

Phosphorus 142 mg 57.4 mg

Potassium 137 mg 57.4 mg

Selenium 26 mg 19 mg

Zinc 1.05 mg 0.841 mg

Bran contains several things of major importance - two major ones are fiber and essential oils. Fiber is not only filling, but is implicated in prevention of major diseases in this country such as certain gastrointestinal diseases and heart disease. The National Cancer Institute recommends 25 grams of fiber a day, a cup of brown rice adds nearly 3.5 g, while an equal amount of white rice not even 1 g. Also, components of the oils present in rice bran have been shown in numerous studies to decrease serum cholesterol, a major risk factor in heart disease.

According to the USDA's new food guide pyramid with six major food groups (fats, dairy, protein, vegetables, fruits, and starches), starches should comprise the major portion of the diet - about 58% - which translates into 6-11 servings of carbohydrate a day. Whole grains such as brown rice figure prominently in this group. A one cup serving of brown rice yields about 50 grams of carbohydrate. In addition, it has been shown that diet rich in carbohydrates can be useful in weight control. Studies show that diets with identical caloric loads but one richer in fats and protein versus a diet rich in carbohydrate tends to contribute to weight gain. Dietary fat tends to go to body fat stores whereas dietary carbohydrate tends to be utilized or held in muscle stores for a period of time. We are much better off, then, to eat a well balanced diet low in fat and rich in complex carbohdrates. Brown rice rounds out the diet in a way white rice cannot begin to approach.

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[Bux]

While dessert sales may be down, there's a counter trend developing. Restaurants are opening with nothing but desserts on the menu and they are offering multi course tasting menus of desserts. Esapai Sucre in Barcelona, may be the one that got all the press, but I recall a starred restaurnt in Toulouse, France that also offered a five course dessert menu. The restaurant was just on the corner of the grand theater and music hall of Toulouse and the menu was intended as an after theater experience. Here in NYC, we have Chicalicious and someone's just posted the news that Blue Hill's pastry chef, Pierre Reboul, will unveil the new fall dessert tasting menu on October 7. It will be available after 9:00 p.m. This is a restaurant that didn't even have a pastry chef last year. In fact the chefs did a demo at the Hotel and Restaurant show with the idea of showing how a restaurant could produce interesting desserts without a pastry chef, but there's a difference between very good and excellent.

[tan319]

. This is a restaurant that didn't even have a pastry chef last year. In fact the chefs did a demo at the Hotel and Restaurant show with the idea of showing how a restaurant could produce interesting desserts without a pastry chef, but there's a difference between very good and excellent.

See, therein lies the problem.

Unless a chef has a background or heavy interest in pastry, dessert cuisine, whatever you want to call it, isn't it just 'pissin in the wind?

I'm digging back some years, but someone like Stephan Pyles made great dessert's ( I ate at Star Canyon 4 times in 2 weeks when I was in Dallas in 95) because he had the background. he worked at Gaston Lenotre's place for at least a year, maybe more. Ditto someone like Ming Tsai, who worked or staged at Fauchoun for a year or so. Ming has a pastry chef. I don't know, don't mean to seem cranky but it is kind of a specialized field, unless you're making pie's and brownies, cookie's and cobbler's... Maybe the Blue Hill guy's were amazing.

I would like to add to the list of dessert only restaurant's 'Sugar, a dessert bar', in Chicago. A former Trotter pastry chef was (is?) manning the stove's there.

[Steve Klc]

Tan--I think you have your answer with Bux saying there is a difference between good and great--in order to move forward, to be taken even more seriously as a restaurant team, an elite pastry chef in Pierre Reboul had to be hired. Dan and Mike were doing a good job--as good a job as I've seen chefs do with dessert. But then this was in the most competitive restaurant market. In other situations, a chef-driven restaurant might only be able to afford the services of a creative pastry chef as a consultant--and that's a move many chefs and restaurants should consider.

Likewise, these dessert only/dessert tasting menu experiments are just that--experiments. The Boston concept failed as it was intended and quickly morphed into an average full-service restaurant in order to keep the doors open. Let's hope this year's Chikalicious and Sugar experiments, which have a different scope, fare better.

Otherwise, pastry chefs and desserts remain imperiled nationally for a whole host of reasons.

[Bux]

Tan--I think you have your answer with Bux saying there is a difference between good and great

Actually, I said very good. The desserts at Blue Hill were never a glaring weak point, even at the most simple. The rice pudding they opened with was an exceptionally satisfying dessert with its passion fruit foam and that wafer. There were evenings I went to dinner looking forward to that simple dessert. If there was a restaurant with simpler aspirations that served it today, I'd go just to have that. I suspect the pastry chef is there as much because Dan and Mike were spreading themselves too thin by working on more complex desserts and the savory food. This is not to say Pierre hasn't made a significant contribution to the overall continued improvement of the meal. Just remember there are four guys now in the kitchen entitled to call themselves "chef" and the desserts and the savory food are probably growing in sophistication. They've also been working on a line of jellies and preserves. This a matter of expansion. They are also working on a restaurant upstate. My guess is that a second rate pastry chef would have been a disservice to the clientele and that they needed to wait until they had what Marlon Brando might have called a "contenda."

[tan319]

In other situations, a chef-driven restaurant might only be able to afford the services of a creative pastry chef as a consultant--and that's a move many chefs and restaurants should consider.

Otherwise, pastry chefs and desserts remain imperiled nationally for a whole host of reasons.

Steve,

Can you explain more in depth on the consultant issue?

I'm curious because I'm wondering how you handle it.

Do you create your menus and hand them over to an in house team that is solely responsible for the pastry department? And you can have the confidence that everything is going to be as you need it to be? Or are you jumping around, so to speak, to make sure your quality is staying up to your (high) standards?

And , even though it would maybe be more of a topic for the pastry and baking forum, can you elaborate further on the second quote here?

Especially here, on this thread?

Are you noticing a downward trend in your places???

Thanks in advance

Edited September 18, 2003 by tan319 (log)