Yellow and white cakes

[shaloop]

?  also, does anyone know why there are no white cake recipes that used oil?  if there are, i surely cannot find them!  i've done several searches and came up empty-handed.  i read on another site where they were talking about bakeries using liquid shortening to get a nice, moist cake, the only thing i can find is liquid frying shortening, i'm assuming they are not the same thing? 

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HERE is a link to a previous discussion on one. I tried this cake with 1/2 cup oil and 4 eggs, seperated, it was good.

[Dailey]

thanks rodney! that's good to know. i know what you mean about muffins with oil, i do miss the butter flavor but at this point, i would be happy with a white cake that is moist, maybe not so flavorful, but i could always rely on the filling/icing for that.

shaloop,

oh my, 1 1/2 cups of oil!?! okay, i *have* to try this recipe, just because now i'm really curious to how it would taste! do you think it would be okay in largers pans, like maybe a 14 inch? thanks for posting the link.

[McDuff]

  i read on another site where they were talking about bakeries using liquid shortening to get a nice, moist cake, the only thing i can find is liquid frying shortening, i'm assuming they are not the same thing? 

does anyone have any suggestions or has anyone found a good solution to this problem?  i'd really like to hear them, thanks

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No, they are not the same thing. There's one called Nutex, a partially hydrogenated shortening with special emulsifiers that allow the baker to make a cake that is basically out of balance according to traditional standards. It will help hold more liquid. It's not available to the consumer, as far as I know. Even if you could find a place willing to sell you a can, it would take forever to use it, unless you make a lot of cakes. There's another one out there, but I disremember the name right now. There's also a hi-ratio shortening from the same manufacturer, I think it's Proctor and Gamble, called Sweetex, and their regular shortening is called Primex. Liquid shortening cakes are dead easy to make. Dump everything in the mixer and mix in two stages at two speeds. We used the swill in school. Thank God I know how to make real cake.

[chefpeon]

There's another one out there, but I disremember the name right now.

I think you're thinking of Fluid Flex! Man I loved that stuff. Made the BEST cakes. Looked just like Vaseline too......YUM. Not available to the consumer......and even bakers have a hard time finding suppliers for it.

Now I'm dealing with the new consumer fear about trans-fats. I had to start buying in a special shortening called Fresh Press that has no trans-fats, it's double the price of regular shortening, and you have to chip at it with a bench knife to scale it out. Not fun.

Dailey, one would think that a white cake made with oil would be rather dense and heavy. Report back on your trial on the oil based recipe. My clients want white cake to be moist AND light. I can't imagine this would be the case if you used oil.

Liquid shortening cakes are dead easy to make. Dump everything in the mixer and mix in two stages at two speeds. We used the swill in school. Thank God I know how to make real cake.

Yes, quite easy for sure. But that "swill" made some incredibly moist people pleasin' cakes as I remember. Where I live now, I'd probably be shot if I used that stuff, but I still think it's cool.

<ducks quickly>

McDuff

"Disremember"?????

Edited July 24, 2006 by chefpeon (log)

[McDuff]

There's another one out there, but I disremember the name right now.

McDuff

"Disremember"?????

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Mark Twain said that first, I gotta admit. I work for the earthy crunchy groceria so I can't go near Nutex or Fluid Flex on account of the hydrogenation issue.

Ever make a chiffon genoise? You beat the yolks to full volume with half the sugar and drizzle in oil. It's just like making sweet mayonnaise. the other half of the sugar goes into a meringue and it's all folded together with the flour, a little water and vanilla. Tender, moist, easy to work with, and real food to boot.

[Dailey]

thanks mcDuff and annie! i wonder why this liqiud shortening is so hard to come by? how frustrating. i used trans-fat-free shortening in my smbc for my family but admit i used the hi-ratio for my customers, i know that's bad but that stuff is awesome in making my icing very stable.

i actually purchased the type of hi-ratio that is for icings and baking, i was told there is also hi-ratio shortening just for icing, i have no idea what the difference is. i'll be making the white cake with oil on wednesday, then i will freeze if for 24 hours then stick it in the fridge still sunday, when it will be eaten and critiqued by my taste-testers, i'll report back with the results.

[chefpeon]

Ever make a chiffon genoise? You beat the yolks to full volume with half the sugar and drizzle in oil. It's just like making sweet mayonnaise. the other half of the sugar goes into a meringue and it's all folded together with the flour, a little water and vanilla. Tender, moist, easy to work with, and real food to boot.

Hey, that sounds really good.....you wouldn't wanna share the recipe or put it in the recipegullet, now would ya???

[shaloop]

?  also, does anyone know why there are no white cake recipes that used oil?  if there are, i surely cannot find them!  i've done several searches and came up empty-handed.  i read on another site where they were talking about bakeries using liquid shortening to get a nice, moist cake, the only thing i can find is liquid frying shortening, i'm assuming they are not the same thing? 

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HERE is a link to a previous discussion on one. I tried this cake with 1/2 cup oil and 4 eggs, seperated, it was good.

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I've also been looking for a basic vanilla/white cake using oil that won't get firm under refrigeration. So, I just made this cake as directed except in two 8" round pans. It domed quite a bit and was kind of heavy. I didn't alter the ingredients this time. I much preferred the version I made earlier using less oil and more eggs and seperating the eggs and whipping them and then folding them in. That cake was light and a good base for a whipped cream and strawberry filled cake. As written, however, I wasn't crazy about the texture or heaviness.

[McDuff]

Vanilla Chiffon Genoise

10 lb 6 oz

egg yolks 2 lb

sugar 3 lb

vegetable oil 12 oz

egg whites 2 lb

cake flour sifted 2 lb 4 oz

baking powder 1 oz

water 5 oz

vanilla to taste

whip the yolks and half the sugar to full volume.

drizzle in the oil

make a common meringue with the remaining sugar and the whites

sift the dry ingredients

mix the water and vanilla

fold the dry and wet alternately into the yolk mixture. (it can ball up against the sides of the bowl. be careful.)

fold in the meringue

scale into greased, papered 9 inch pans at 1 lb 8 oz

bake at 360 till done.

I don't think that's a lot of oil. the mix I use at work takes 9 lbs of oil for a 30 lb bag of mix. cake stays moist forever.

[pjm333]

This is the white cake I use..uses both butter and shortening..

1 LB BUTTER - ROOM TEMP

2 CUPS SHORTENING

8 CUPS SUGAR

12 CUPS CAKE FLOUR

4 t BAKING POWDER

2 t BAKING SODA

4 CUPS BUTTERMILK

2 T SALT

20 EGG WHITES

CREAM BUTTER, SHORTENING & 7 CUPS OF SUGAR, MIX DRY INGREDIENTS AND SIFT. ADD DRY & BUTTERMILK TO BUTTER MIX BEGINING & ENDING WITH DRY.. BEAT WHITES TILL SOFT PEAK AND ADD REST OF SUGAR AND BEAT TILL STIFF PEAK. FOLD INTO BUTTER MIXTURE.

I have a good recipe using fluid flex if you can find it..

Pat

[Desiderio]

Vanilla Chiffon Genoise

10 lb 6 oz

egg yolks 2 lb

sugar  3 lb

vegetable oil  12 oz

egg whites  2 lb

cake flour sifted  2 lb 4 oz

baking powder  1 oz

water            5 oz

vanilla to taste

whip the yolks and half the sugar to full volume.

drizzle in the oil

make a common meringue with the remaining sugar and the whites

sift the dry ingredients

mix the water and vanilla

fold the dry and wet alternately into the yolk mixture. (it can ball up against the sides of the bowl. be careful.)

fold in the meringue

scale into greased, papered 9 inch pans at 1 lb 8 oz

bake at 360 till done.

I don't think that's a lot of oil. the mix I use at work takes 9 lbs of oil for a 30 lb bag of mix. cake stays moist forever.

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HuHu Thank you the recipe McDuff, I was just reading the thread and I was about to ask for it , but there it is .It sounds great I really really wnat to try it .

Thank you

[Squirrelly Cakes]

Hi Dailey,

Well other than in Genoise and chiffon cakes, oil isn't generally used in non-commercial cake baking because it doesn't offer the advantage of creaming with sugar as a solid fat would and that factor is important in building the structure of white and yellow cakes. Oil doesn't hold air. Genoise and chiffon cakes have a totally different structure, a more delicate, spongey texture and because of the other ingredients and methods of incorporating air, it works well in those recipes.

See: http://www.baking911.com/cakes/101ingredients.htm

If you use high-ratio shortening in your cakes you will need to use a recipe that was developed for this shortening, one that contains high-ratio cake flour and has the ratio of ingredients that make it a high-ratio cake formula. You cannot just substitute it when shortening is called for in a cake recipe.

I am not quite sure why you are using the timeline you are talking about, baking Wednesday, then freezing 24 hours and then refrigerating the cake until Sunday. Is that for an experiment? Actually most cakes are better kept at room temperature after thawing at room temperatures of less than 75F. I know that is a timeline many folks use for making wedding cakes, is that the reason? That is a long time to go before having the first serving. It is fine when you are talking about leftover cake but it will not be at its peak of quality at that point.

Refrigerating cakes can change their texture, can dry them out - especially butter cakes - unless you have excellent moisture controls. Refrigerating a cake for that long will not result in the cake being at its best for the taste test. Some oil based cake recipes have a texture like muffins and can get quite rubbery in texture after being refrigerated that long.

You likely will get a much denser cake when using oil in a cake, other than in a genoise or chiffon which I would not refrigerate or keep for that long.

One of the disadvantages with oil cakes is that even though the oils are hydogenated, there is a tendency for an oil based cake to get rancid in a shorter period of time than those using other fats or shortenings.

For home baking you would likely be happier with a shortening recipe which will probably give you the texture you want but unfortunately, without the taste butter provides.

Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

Edited July 25, 2006 by Squirrelly Cakes (log)

[Dailey]

thanks for posting the recipes mcduff and pat, they both sound promising. i looked for fluid flex on the web but am having no luck, maybe i'll call my local bakeries today.

muduff, do you think this vanilla genoise would hold up well for wedding cakes that are draped with fondant?

shaloop, thanks for posting on your results. when i make this cake, i will try your version as i do not want a greasy cake! there is a bakery a couple towns over and they have the greasiest cakes i have ever tasted, you have to serve them on a plate other than paper or else they soak right through.

SC,

thanks for information. yes, its an experiment. i am not one of those bakers who refuse to bake early, i have no problem throwing my cakes in the freezer a couple weeks in advance, if need be. i really prefer not to refriderate but like i said, if i'm doing a tiered cake, i need to refriderate overnight to deliver it. i have awesome white cake recipes that are perfectly moist, as long as they stay at room temperature, unfortunetly, i cannot used them for wedding cakes. i have other cake recipes that are fine in the fridge and don't lose moisture after a day or two. i realize that these other recipes have the benefits of the yolk, which white cakes don't but isn't there some way to add extra fat to the recipe to make up for it? it just seems like it shouldn't be this difficult! my banana, coconut, chocolate, even my yellow, do fine in the fridge. and don't even get me started on mixes, i can leave one in my fridge for over a week and have a perfectly moist cake!

[Squirrelly Cakes]

Haha, well you will be fine overnight even with a butter cake. But butter cakes typically do the least well refrigerated, drying out quickly.

Hhmn, question for you, when you refrigerate your stacked cake, is it boxed and sealed against the elements? Also your other cakes that are drying out, how are you refrigerating them?

Boxes are fine for 24 hours but after that the moisture of the icing and the cake becomes an issue. So you are better off having them in boxes and bagging the boxes or using sealed plastic containers.

I use moving boxes to refrigerate stacked cakes. Usually leaving the front flaps up and taped and covering the top with foil or plastic wrap.

Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

[McDuff]

thanks for posting the recipes mcduff and pat, they both sound promising.    i looked for fluid flex on the web but am having no luck, maybe i'll call my local bakeries today. 

muduff, do you think this vanilla genoise would hold up well for wedding cakes that are draped with fondant?

shaloop, thanks for posting on your results.  when i make this cake, i will try your version as i do not want a greasy cake!  there is a bakery a couple towns over and they have the greasiest cakes i have ever tasted, you have to serve them on a plate other than paper or else they soak right through.

SC,

  thanks for information.  yes, its an experiment.  i am not one of those bakers who refuse to bake early, i have no problem throwing my cakes in the freezer a couple weeks in advance, if need be.  i really prefer not to refriderate but like i said, if i'm doing a tiered cake, i need to refriderate overnight to deliver it.  i have awesome white cake recipes that are perfectly moist, as long as they stay at room temperature, unfortunetly, i cannot used them for wedding cakes.   i have other cake recipes that are fine in the fridge and don't lose moisture after a day or two.  i realize that these other recipes have the benefits of the yolk, which white cakes don't but isn't there some way to add extra fat to the recipe to make up for it?  it just seems like it shouldn't be this difficult!    my banana, coconut, chocolate, even my yellow, do fine in the fridge.  and don't even get me started on mixes, i can leave one in my fridge for over a week and have a perfectly moist cake!

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if you google "Nutex liquid shortening" you should get a hit for a place called icaviar.com and they sell three 5 qt cans for about 60 bucks.

I don't know if the chiffon genoise will hold up to fondant. You can cut that formula down and make a couple and try.

the best solution i've found for moving big cakes is to to go Home Depot and buy a sheet of blue foam insulation to build a big box out of. cut the bottom to just fit the board the cake is on, cut all the pieces to size carefully with a serrated knife, use bamboo skewers and duct tape to hold it together. I also would skewer the cake board to the bottom and believe me, that cake ain't going nowhere, plus it's insulated against the heat. Get to the site, take off the front of the box, pull out the skewers in the cake board and slide out the cake, and away you go with the cake in perfect condition. I sent ice cream cakes from Boston to NYC with dry ice in a deal like this and they arrived so frozen they were hard to cut.

eta--I just browsed the icaviar site and they sell goose fat in a can! You know how much duck fat I threw away over the years because I never heard of confit being made in this country? of course, this has nothing to do with cake.

Edited July 25, 2006 by McDuff (log)

[Dailey]

well what do you know...i found fluid flex today! was the first placed i called too. the price is not too bad, $48 for 38 pounds.

pat, can i have your recipe, please?

SC, the majority of my cakes are covered in fondant, then stored in the fridge uncovered. the only cake that i have a problem with is the white, the others are fine. i always assumed that the smbc and fondant was enough to insulate my cakes, i wonder if wrapping them in plastic as well would make a difference?

mcduff, that is brillant, thanks so much for posting the details!

[Squirrelly Cakes]

Well depending on your fridge and what controls you have over humidity, I don't feel it is a good idea to store without boxing or packaging cakes to protect them against humidity changes. Buttercakes are notorious for drying out. I think the plastic wrap would help.

Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

[chefpeon]

Buttercakes are notorious for drying out.

If your butter cake is wrapped in plastic wrap and refrigerated a few days it does dry a bit, but not a LOT. Depends how well you wrap it.

If your butter cake is in the fridge under a layer of buttercream and fondant, you don't have to worry about drying at all. That layer of fat (buttercream), seals in moisture unbelievably.

This is my theory about cakes drying out. It isn't so much that the cake dries out in the fridge, it's the fact that the cake was dry in the FIRST PLACE. You don't realize it when it's warm. Another fact: butter cakes TASTE dry when they are refrigerated. I am constantly telling my clients that cakes taste BEST at room temperature. I drive this point home when I consult with brides and give them samples. I tell them to note that the cake is room temperature, and that's how it should be served.

[RodneyCk]

Refrigerators are moisture extractor’s period so do expect a drier cake. Remember the old refrigerators with the drip pan than fill with water and usually ended up all over the floor when you tried to drain them? That's your moisture from inside. Some of the newer models actually have moisture controls, so adjust away.

Freezers are actually better, they seal in the moisture as the cake is frozen and depending on the humidity and temp outside, that moisture and maybe some extra from the condensation when unfreezing will actually make for a moist cake, especially when compared to the fridge.

[Squirrelly Cakes]

True RodneyCK, a lot depends on the refrigerator we are using. Commercial refrigerators generally have better moisture controls and options than fridges for home-use. And home-use fridges vary too.

My thoughts are, we all use different timelines when making wedding cakes too. Some folks start on a Tuesday or Wednesday before a wedding. Some defrosting a cake as early as the Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday or baking the cake at that point. This is just my opinion but most cakes decline after 2-3 days. So in some cases the glue or buttercream is going on the cake after the cake is already a few days old, and folks use varying types of buttercream along with varying amounts - and the cakes sits out or gets refrigerated. Then the fondant goes on. Again not everyone uses a commercial rolled fondant, some folks use marshmallow fondant, some apply it quite thinly - less than 1/8 of an inch, others by the old standards of about 1/4 inch thick. So that means we are not all starting off with "apples" if we refrigerate.

So that was my point. Refrigerating a cake overnight could cause further drying issues when the cake is not covered. I agree that fondant and buttercream should provide a better seal than buttercream alone. But it still isn't impermeable. Some people use uncovered cardboards which also sucks some of the moisture out of cakes.

I just feel that all cakes should be protected whether in the fridge or on the counter, before delivery. Another issue is the fact that they absorb other food odours or odours around them and we don't all have dedicated fridges.

But I totally agree that often we may start off with a dry cake and not realize it. I think we see more complaints from bakers about dry white butter cakes than anything else. People seem to have to feel they have to use a soaking syrup to counter the dry cake when in fact the cake on its own should be moist enough, in my opinion and the soaking syrup should be optional.

But I am just speaking from an unprofessional, home baker point of view. I try not to do business on a larger scale because that isn't what I wish to do.

Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

[Dailey]

Buttercakes are notorious for drying out.

If your butter cake is wrapped in plastic wrap and refrigerated a few days it does dry a bit, but not a LOT. Depends how well you wrap it.

If your butter cake is in the fridge under a layer of buttercream and fondant, you don't have to worry about drying at all. That layer of fat (buttercream), seals in moisture unbelievably.

This is my theory about cakes drying out. It isn't so much that the cake dries out in the fridge, it's the fact that the cake was dry in the FIRST PLACE. You don't realize it when it's warm. Another fact: butter cakes TASTE dry when they are refrigerated. I am constantly telling my clients that cakes taste BEST at room temperature. I drive this point home when I consult with brides and give them samples. I tell them to note that the cake is room temperature, and that's how it should be served.

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i agree totally, i have a friend who insists on eating my cakes cold from the fridge. drives me nuts because i know they taste dry.

i'm gonna be purchasing a new refriderator when we move within the year, i'll have to make sure i get one that has good moisture control.

[Trishiad]

So, Where the heck is the answer????

I'm still making banana cream napoleons for my hubby for his birthday but truly his favorite birthday cake is yellow with chocolate frosting. I've mentioned before that he's historically enjoyed the box and can version. Ha! I remembered that there was a "best of" thread and figured an additional dessert would be a no brainer. But NOOoooooo! It's just a thread full of potential recipes. Come on, I thought you guys loved me. Anyone wanna choose a winner?

[RodneyCk]

So,  Where the heck is the answer???? 

I'm still making banana cream napoleons for my hubby for his birthday but truly his favorite birthday cake is yellow with chocolate frosting.  I've mentioned before that he's historically enjoyed the box and can version.  Ha!  I remembered that there was a "best of" thread and figured an additional dessert would be a no brainer.  But NOOoooooo!  It's just a thread full of potential recipes.  Come on, I thought you guys loved me.  Anyone wanna choose a winner?

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I have come to the conclusion that finding the best of anything food related is next to impossible when it comes to suggestions from others. Why? Because taste is so subjective, a personal experience that may not carry over to another taster.

The only sure way of finding the best yellow cake is to jump in and find a recipe out of all those suggested or elsewhere that strikes your fancy. No one else can do it for you. Good luck...

Edited September 1, 2006 by RodneyCk (log)

[K8memphis]

I only read page three of this thread, but I really like Sylvia Weinstock's yellow/white cake recipe and I stopped looking for anything better so that's the ultimate for moi. Maybe that will help until Alana can respond.

I use two whites and two whole eggs, toss them in one by one but not with whites & yellows separated for white cake. It's the bombashabomb. Stays moist for days. Then I sub some brown sugar & add pecan flavor to do butter pecan --very versatile very nice recipe.

Edited September 1, 2006 by K8memphis (log)

[mignardise]

I've been kinda going all over the board lately, trying all kinds as well.

Really like Golden Cake w/ sour crm frosting from Epicuriuos. Just tried Fine Cooking Vanilla Butter Cake April/May 06 issue- liked that as well.

And, you are right, taste is subjective.