The Great Pastrami & Smoked Meat Experiment

[alanz]

You could make a sandwich after just curing and smoking, and it would be the same old bad deli sandwich you get at a typical convenience-store deli.

Why would you think that a piece of meat coming straight off the smoker would be inferior to that which has been steamed to reheat?

I much prefer the meat as it comes off the cooker.

However that's not viable for restaurants, so steaming is a good way to ressurect the meat after cooling. In my home, we vacuum seal my leftovers and bring them to a simmer in the vac bag before serving.

[melkor]

Why would you think that a piece of meat coming straight off the smoker would be inferior to that which has been steamed to reheat?

I much prefer the meat as it comes off the cooker.

However that's not viable for restaurants, so steaming is a good way to ressurect the meat after cooling.  In my home, we vacuum seal my leftovers and bring them to a simmer in the vac bag before serving.

The steaming isn't to reheat. You have a completely different taste when the meat comes off the cooker than when the same meat comes out of the steamer after 3 hours. The flavors in the rub end up all mixed into the meat as the fat cap melts. The idea is to add moisture and to change the texture of the meat.

[alanz]

Maybe I'm just spoiled... my cooker is a ceramic device with a lot of thermal mass and very refined air flow control... so it doesn't dry out the meat as much as other cookers do.

I suppose steaming would help some smokers, just as adding plates of water into the smoker helps or is necessary for those other cookers.

Nice to be spoiled. < s >

Edited July 26, 2003 by alanz (log)

[VivreManger]

With regard to one detail, Montreal smoked meat is made from a whole brisket.

However I believe that what has been called plate is the same as the Yiddish word "deckel" which I believe is the very well-marbeled crown-like portion on the top of the whole brisket. Thus, if I am correct, Montreal smoked meat uses both the flat somewhat stringy and tougher part of the brisket along with the fattier -- marbeled rather than strands of fat -- plate or deckel portion.

A few weeks ago in Montreal I had both flat smoked meat brisket (from Schwartz's and Snowdon Del) and smoket meat brisket deckel portion from the Main.

As for the court boullion question, as some of you may remember, I have advocated that technique for preparing smoked meat at home. The boullion I prepare contains a variety of the spices found in the original dry rub, along with whatever catches my fancy at the moment.

I suggest the court boullion variation might be included along with the other options -- steaming etc. -- that have been considered.

[Fat Guy]

Brisket and plate are, I believe, contiguous parts of the underbelly. But I thought deckel in the context of brisket referred to the point cut of the brisket, not to the plate. This is way beyond what I really know, though -- we need an expert to help us out here.

[Chef Fowke]

Day Three.

4.4 BRISKET (BRISKET POINT): means that portion of the FRONT QUARTER which is separated from the PLATE by a straight cut passing between the 5th and 6th rib, from the CHUCK by a cut a right angles to the first cut passing at a point slightly above (dorsal to) the elbow joint (distal extremity of the humerus) and from the SHANK by a cut which follows the natural contour of the elbow bone (olecranon process of the ulna).

4.5 FULL BRISKET (FULL PLATE): refers to the portion containing both the BRISKET and PLATE.

With the food network never being wrong I am going to use this article as my guidelines to get started: Pastrami 101

I will work with two brisket (points) and two plates each from Alberta 'AAA' Cattle. One brisket and one plate will be dry cured and the other two wet cured.

After the curing and smoking one brisket and one plate will be simmered and the other two steamed.

Will this cover all our bases and get us a good starting point to start doing our scientific research? I also have a connection on a slab of brisket from Schwartz’s. It should be out to me in Vancouver soon.

[alanz]

There's a very good summary of the definition of a brisket at:

Brisket Defined web page

[Legitimate Beef]

Mmmmmmmm....sounds good.

I'm from Vancouver, so let me know if you need any help "testing" the meat.

[bloviatrix]

Just a thought . . . . many of the pastramis which are considered the "benchmark" such as Ben's and Katz's are kosher or kosher-style. Therefore, maybe you should include in your experiment some kosher brisket.

Let me explain my logic -- I know that kosher chickens and turkeys don't need to be brined because the salting during kashering adds flavor. Therefore, I would assume that kashering would have a similar effect on brisket and might in turn effect the flavor of the end result of the pastrami.

[Chef Fowke]

Just a thought . . . . many of the pastramis which are considered the "benchmark" such as Ben's and Katz's are kosher or kosher-style.  Therefore, maybe you should include in your experiment some kosher brisket.

Let me explain my logic -- I know that kosher chickens and turkeys don't need to be brined because the salting during kashering adds flavor.  Therefore, I would assume that kashering would have a similar effect on brisket and might in turn effect the flavor of the end result of the pastrami.

Do you have more information on Kosher? I will try.

[Chef Fowke]

Mmmmmmmm....sounds good.

I'm from Vancouver, so let me know if you need any help "testing" the meat. 

We will have all the pastrami ready for the start of September. We will post the tasting date and location. I have a good friend on the North Shore with a restaurant overlooking the Burrard Inlet and downtown Vancouver. I will see if he can set us up for a few hours on a Saturday afternoon.

[bloviatrix]

Just a thought . . . . many of the pastramis which are considered the "benchmark" such as Ben's and Katz's are kosher or kosher-style.  Therefore, maybe you should include in your experiment some kosher brisket.

Let me explain my logic -- I know that kosher chickens and turkeys don't need to be brined because the salting during kashering adds flavor.  Therefore, I would assume that kashering would have a similar effect on brisket and might in turn effect the flavor of the end result of the pastrami.

Do you have more information on Kosher? I will try.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're asking.

For meat to truly be kosher, it has to be slaughtered in a certain way and then go through the salting and soaking process within 3 days of slaughter. Since the slaughter won't effect the taste, you can take any brisket and do the "kashering" yourself. I can get you the instructions if you desire. Otherwise, you might want to order the meat directly from a kosher butcher - but I'm not sure if you can find one in Vancouver.

[Chef Fowke]

Just a thought . . . . many of the pastramis which are considered the "benchmark" such as Ben's and Katz's are kosher or kosher-style.  Therefore, maybe you should include in your experiment some kosher brisket.

Let me explain my logic -- I know that kosher chickens and turkeys don't need to be brined because the salting during kashering adds flavor.  Therefore, I would assume that kashering would have a similar effect on brisket and might in turn effect the flavor of the end result of the pastrami.

Do you have more information on Kosher? I will try.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're asking.

For meat to truly be kosher, it has to be slaughtered in a certain way and then go through the salting and soaking process within 3 days of slaughter. Since the slaughter won't effect the taste, you can take any brisket and do the "kashering" yourself. I can get you the instructions if you desire. Otherwise, you might want to order the meat directly from a kosher butcher - but I'm not sure if you can find one in Vancouver.

I once did a kosher wedding in 1989. All the kitchen knives, utensils, pots and pans had to be boiled and inspected by a rabbi. That is my knowledge on kosher food. Please forward me information/recipes on 'koshering' beef and I will include a kosher brisket in my experiment.

[melkor]

Maybe I'm just spoiled... my cooker is a ceramic device with a lot of thermal mass and very refined air flow control... so it doesn't dry out the meat as much as other cookers do.

I suppose steaming would help some smokers, just as adding plates of water into the smoker helps or is necessary for those other cookers.

Nice to be spoiled. < s >

Your missing the point, it has nothing to do with being cooked in the K nor does it have anything to do with being dry when it leaves the smoker. This is a smoked brisket pre-steaming:

The meat directly out of the cooker is not pastrami because it has not had the final step in the pastramization process. It is simply a different product after extended exposure to steam. Give it a try.

[bloviatrix]

Here is the koshering process for meat:

Step 1: Preliminary Washing. Remove all visible blood.

Step 2: Soaking. Immerse meat in room temperature water for a minimum of 1/2 hour but no more than 24 hours.

Step 3: Salting. Meat must be washed off before salted. Inspect meat to make to sure there is no visible blood. Shake off excess water and allow meat to sit for a short time so that the salt does not dissolve too easily. But meat should be damp enough that salt will adhere.

Salt meat thoroughly on all sides, but not so thickly that blood would be prevented from flowing out. Salted meat should remain on board for a minimum of one hour, but no more than 12 hours.

The ideal salting board should be perforated with many holes or a rack with slats so that the blood can flow out. Nothing should interfere with the draining of the blood.

Step 4: Triple Rinsing. After the meat has lain in salt for the required period of time, rinse it well. Rub off and remove the salt from all sides. This is done three separate times.

First time, meat should be rinsed under running water and rubbed while under the water. Make sure all sides come in contact with the water.

The second and third times, the meat may either be rinsed again under running water or soaked in a clean basin of fresh water. The basin must be rinsed out separately each time and fresh water used for both the second and third rinsing.

Now you're ready to use the meat.

Just one other point, make sure to use kosher salt for the salting. The crystal size is most appropriate for drawing out the blood.

[Chef Fowke]

Thank You!!!!

I will apply this to one piece of brisket/flank/navel. I can see how a lot of flavour is added by making it kosher.

We just need to decide on the scientific procedure we are going to adopt in the tasting of the meats.

PS. my laptop is set up with a wireless card. Does anyone know how we can set up a web cam and broadcast the tasting live?

[Fat Guy]

Basildog is our resident expert on kitchen Webcams.

[jhlurie]

There's a very good summary of the definition of a brisket at:

Brisket Defined web page

Love both those supraspinatus and deep pectoral muscles...

[wesza]

Whoa! There is considerable difference in the origin and actual History of the Pastrami served in Montreal, and that what is served in New York Metro area, and everywhere else in America. Montreal's Pastrami, came from England where it's called Smoked Beef or Spiced Beef. It's was traditionaly made from the Silver Tip, {English Butchering Cut}. This is used in UK for Corned Beef as Well as Smoked Meat [Pastrami}. This Silver Tip, is similar to our Whole Shoulder Clod, trimmed differently. In New York the original Pastrami, was made from Goose, by Rumanian Kosher Deli's. The First Beef, Pastrumi, was made from Navel or Plate. It's still used In New York, but the majority of processed Pastrami[that's what it's called?] comes from Top Round, Eye Round or Flat Briskets, sliced or packaged in most Supermarkets. The proper method of preperation is to first mildly cure the plates, after injection in a pickling solution. Then the plates are, dried, them covered with seasonings, different types for different finishes. Then the navels are strung up and hung on Smoker Trees, where they are slow, moist smoked idealy until the Colligen in the Beef breaks down, leaving the meat, tasty, tender and delicious. That's why it responds so well to the mild, steamer, warming and slicing. I feel that the best navel Pastrami is made in the Philidelphia area, National Foods in Miami and in NYC, on the lower east side, near to Katz Deli. I wish there was some in Seattle, where i'm now located. I opened Lindy's in Hong Kong in 1965 with real Pastrami, grw up in NYC, worked in the Catskill's, Stage Deli, with Max Asnas and the Carnagie Deli. Have been Consulting on Foods and Restaurants all over the World, am now retired, so may post without violating confidentiality.

[VivreManger]

Montreal's Pastrami, came from England where it's called Smoked Beef or Spiced Beef. It's was traditionaly made from the Silver Tip, {English Butchering Cut}. This is used in UK for Corned Beef as Well as Smoked Meat [Pastrami}.

I wonder what the relationship is between what you call smoked beef or spiced beef and what I know from London as salt beef. I also wonder if Montreal Jews would have been influenced by English cuts of meat. Did Ben's original owners come through England.

[Jinmyo]

wesza, welcome to eGullet. I'm sure that you will have much to tell us.

[Chef Fowke]

The meat has arrived! Tomorrow Jason and I will start curing the beef. In three weeks we will have a finished product.

[Fat Guy]

I've never heard it suggested that Montreal smoked meat came from the UK, nor does the claim sound convincing on its face. It may be true, but I'd be interested in seeing a source or reference or anything that contradicts what everyone I've spoken to in the deli business has said: that it comes from Romania. Here's a typical example of the story:

The Romanians being a very poor people, had to make do with very inexpensive cuts of meat as well as facing the possibility of this meat spoiling under less than ideal conditions. So to preserve the meat called "brisket" or the breast of beef, the Romanians would rub the meat in a blend of spices and salt that would help the meat stay fresh. The meat would would be slowly smoked in the open air over maple and hickory woods. The result was a juicy, tender piece of meat that was full of flavour. Since Montreal was the main port for the Romanian people, the locals came to enjoy the recipe first, but it quickly spread to become one of Montreal's most famous exports.

http://www.abiesmokedmeat.com/about.htm

The Jews in Montreal are typically part of the "English" community, but that label in the context of Quebec means they speak English as their primary language, not that they come from England. Most of Montreal's Jews, just like Jews in New York, have roots in Central and Eastern Europe: Lithuania, Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, etc.

Montreal bagels also come from Romania, I believe.

[Chef Fowke]

The first two pieces of brisket are in the brine. The point and the round. I am using a wet brine (recipe follows) to cure these samples. The plate will not arrive for 7 to 10 days. No one is butchering animals locally and all the plates on the market have been ground. When the plate arrives I will dry brine it.

In three weeks we will smoke all three samples at the same time. Steaming will happen the next day then we will go live on the internet in our taste testing of the meat.

We still need to develop a scientific method for the actual tasting. Any suggestions on criteria. Taste is so subjective. We need more measurable factors to rate. Maybe a fat-o-meter, etc.

Here is the wet cure:

• 16 litres water

• kosher salt (added to water until and egg floated)

• 1lbs fresh thyme

• ¼ lbs black peppercorns

• ¼ lbs fresh garlic cloves, whole

• ½ cup coriander seeds

• 8 bay leaves

• 2 tbls juniper berries

• 2 lemons (cut in half)

• ½ cup salt peter

The meat is sealed in the container for three weeks. Before it is smoked the meat will be thoroughly washed and soaked in clean water for 24 hours. The meat will then be dried and rubbed with a 95% cracked black pepper, 5% coriander seed mix.

[VivreManger]

Everything seems great. My only question concerns the pepper to coriander ratio, 95% to 5%. I would make increase the coriander to about 30% to 40% of the total. Any other suggestions out there?