Tip Computation: How do you Determine the Tip?

[tommy]

A tip is for service plain and simple.

not necessarily. and that's why people don't mind the 20% guideline.

[cnspriggs]

I think the original posters question wasn't so much about what % to tip but about what to value on the bill to tip from. Personally I find the mark up on wine extravagent in most places so generally subtract the price of the wine before tipping as this is what I have read to be standard. For example if a bottle that sells for $30 cost $60 in a restaurant (and even more is often charged) I don't believe that anyone could possibly earn a 20% tip ($12!) for pulling a cork. So I am in the group that says you tip on the preliqour price of the food.

As for with or without tax I agree with the poster that said most of the time it makes such a small difference to the tip that I don't worry about it. Come to think of it I do have one question. At a restaurant do you get charged tax on the price of the bottle of wine too?

One other thing that I often think is a little unfair is the that we base our tips on the price of the bill rather than on the job done. I often look at the people that work in a less expensive yet busy restaurant and they are practically running around to get everyone served. Yet when the bill comes in at such an establishment they will get a smaller tip than a server at a fancy restaurant where the bill is higher yet the pace of service is slower (and potentially easier??).

[Foodie in Vancouver]

Thanks, CNSPriggs for clarifying my intent. Yes, I am trying to find out what others base their tip on when the liquor has already been marked up and then the tax is included in the total as well. Like you, I sometimes feel annoyed that with a hefty mark-up on the wine I am also expected to tip on the mark-up. And I heartily agree with you about the small but busy establishments where the wait staff certainly appear to be sweating it out more than in some of the higher-end restaurants where the tables turn over less-often and there are more people around to minister to the diners needs. If I get great service then the amount of the tip is never in question. It is when the service is just ordinary - they bring you the food, the food is good and then they bring you the bill. No interaction, but no complaints. This is when you become conscious of what you are leaving as a tip, notwithstanding that the kitchen did their job.

And then there are the tip jars at coffee shops! A whole other topic. I have heard that the Starbucks staff hate the Starbucks cards because customers don't have change to toss in the tip jar when they use their card. I have seldom been moved to tip in Starbuck's. The service is good but this is one instance where I feel the cost of service is definitely included in the price of the product.

[tommy]

am i understanding that some people aren't tipping on the wine at all?

[tryska]

i've always been told that you tip on the pre-tax subtotal.

in practice i tip on the total, but if it were an amount where tax was a significant factor, i would go back to the sub-total and tip on that.

[Sam Salmon]

There are many places in this country where servers get, like $2.01 to $2.13 an hour and then you have the min. wage workers declaring tips and being taxed for them.

Umm...No!

You must be from some other country because no one in Canada is paid that poorly.

I agree with Daddy-A-doubling the GST is the easiest way to determine a fair tip.

20% is achievable 'some' of the time for exceptional service but is not all common.

[jayhay]

We always tip on the final total, & have never heard of anyone deducting the wine before calculating the tip. Read somewhere the head of the Restaurant Association in B.C. doubles the GST on his bill to figure the tip...seems a little cheap to me!

[gastropimp]

I sincerely cannot believe what I'm reading.

Do you seriously believe that you should deduct the wine or liquor? That is preposterous, disgustingly cheap and offensive to any professional in this business.

Let's be straight about this. These are professionals. By and large, the people in 'proper, higher end' restaurants are highly trained, multi-tasking and charismatic people. The difference between running-your-ass-off burger joints and casual-calm-professional dining room servers surely isn't the effort, but the training, mentality and professionalism. Most dining room servers are required to have a minimum 5 years experience before they can hit the floor of a reputable restaurant in town.

That goes beyond articling for a law firm or a residence at a hospital.

Now I won't speak for your 'summer job' Keg waiter, (Hi, my name's chuck! Ladies, whut can I git fer yha!). That, surely is just job to get through school, or acting lessons or whatever.

The professionals in professional restaurant settings deserve your respect. As much as you would expect it from them at your place of employment.

Standard tip is 15%. On everything except tax. Large parties are usually subject to an 'auto gratuity' of 15-18%, depending on the venue. This covers everything.

If you have an entertainment book coupon, or anything else, you tip on THE WHOLE BILL before the discount. Standard, expected and very fair.

I won't bore you with the math, but if you didn't tip and still expected the same degree of service, assume to double your food bill, no joke.

And yes, in the U.S., some servers and bartenders make $2.40 per hr. The restaurant economy has been based on tips for too long to change.

We should get some perspective here.

This is the best value in North America for great food, as well as some of the freshest, most diverse and underpriced. (Yes, booze is still way overtaxed) Go out and celebrate that instead of saving that extra $2 dollars for the skytrain home.

[glenn]

There's been about 80,000 discussions about including wine in the tip. There is no right or wrong answer, but to not tip at all is pretty dang low in my book.

At a restaurant do you get charged tax on the price of the bottle of wine too?

Every state has their own sales tax laws (or not). Many make no sense. In NY, you do pay tax on liquor. However, many restaurants choose to include the tax in the price of the drink/bottle at the bar. In other words, liquor is often times cheaper if you sit at the bar. For example, if you order a glass of wine that costs $5 at the bar, that'll be your total bill. If you sit at a table, it would be $5 plus tax.

Edited April 26, 2004 by glenn (log)

[Keith Talent]

I won't bore you with the math, but if you didn't tip and still expected the same degree of service, assume to double your food bill, no joke.

Even my couldn't pass high school math brain sees the lack of logic in this arguement. Care to elaborate with some examples? If foof and booze represent 50% each of the cheque total, (a fair generalizaion I'd say) wouldn't an increase of 30 % to food cost cover lost tips? How do you get double?

Anyways the whole discussion should be moot. Restaurants should all bump prices 15% across the board, and offer service included. The greenest business school freshman could explain how the incentive of a tip really won't motivate the server one iota to improve service.

[Exotic Mushroom]

Keith, the prices of your food would jump significantly higher than the 15% you're tipping if restaurants did away with tipping and payed waiters higher wages. The reason? Payroll taxes and other expenses related to the increased wages would shoot through the roof. That cost would be passed directly onto you.

gastropimp is completely right. Tip on the whole bill, wine mark-up included. Here in CA, 20% is standard for decent service. Waiters at nice restaurants are trained professionals who have put in a lot of time and effort to get to the point they're at. To you, they may not seem as harried as the waitress at a little coffee shop, but I assure you that the work is very difficult. Part of their training and professionalism is to exude that calm, not hurried aura.

This isn't really the place, but for those of you who complain about wine mark-ups, those are there for a reason. Restaurants have to pay to store wine, pay for the glasses they serve it to you in, pay the staff serving the wine, pay for the chairs you're enjoying the wine in, and so on. We have to make money somewhere!

[gastropimp]

Even my couldn't pass high school math brain sees the lack of logic in this arguement. Care to elaborate with some examples? If foof and booze represent 50% each of the cheque total, (a fair generalizaion I'd say) wouldn't an increase of 30 % to food cost cover lost tips? How do you get double?

Ok, but hold on for this one mr. talent, it gets boring fast. . .

You are correct, of course to assume that food cost should hit around 30%.

let's assume we double the labour cost, that's fair to assume, no? What I theorize is that . . . 1. you've jumped tax brackets, adding cpp,ei,WCB,tax to the employee AND to the employer, who must double or sometimes more, the said remittance. Average increase could hit 4-6% of sales. . . no joke.

2. Overtime, stat holiday pay etc. . . when most restaurants are open, causing a prohibitive labour cost. Some don't even open because of this at the current wage rate. However, double time and a half tweaks things pretty heavy when it's a full staff. Percentage? . . . don't have the time to work it out, but assume that day's labour costs to equal 90-100% of sales.

Total increase in labour should be about 150% of the original cost. That's based on doubling their wages, and a continuous training program, wine tasting, food knowledge etc... Assume, when you double the wage, the actual cost to the employer should be about 2.5 times original. stinky govt. and their taxes.

4. Food cost is $10., labour cost is $10. price should equal$60-65. Food cost is $10., labour cost is $25 (see fig.1,2) $105-120. (Each of those two trying to hit about 30-33%, depending on location. That's about double.

Kieth, I wish I had as my super-power the ability to pull #'s out of my @ss, but they wouldn't let me in the Legion of Doom for that. All jokes aside, we did a study of an Australian project, where they have no tipout. It's a different beast, that's for sure.

As to changing the model, . . why? I've seen so many 'tip pool' restaurants where the individuals aren't motivated by ca$h, and the service is sloppy and weak. Some notable exceptions exist undoubtably. Communism is bad for productivity, sorry. Either the achievers are rewarded, or they will simply slide down to the l.c.d. of effort. (note: Ayn Rand explores this in depth in her famous fiction based on 'collectivism'. . . Atlas Shrugged - great book)

I think the numbers are accurate, but I encourage you to prove me wrong.

[Exotic Mushroom]

The greenest business school freshman could explain how the incentive of a tip really won't motivate the server one iota to improve service.

And anyone who's ever eaten out in a country where tipping isn't standard can list legions of horror stories about the abysmal level of service in those places. Tips motivate waiters to treat their customers better without a doubt. I'm not even sure I understand that what the argument is that tips don't motive improved service. Could you explain it, please?

[PopsicleToze]

Another vote for tipping on everything but tax. I calculate 10% since it's so easy to do that, then I double the amount for 20%. Very bad service, however rare, is only 10%. Exceptional service goes to 25%, but the majority of the time I find waiters helpful and good at their jobs, and I tip 20%.

[Keith Talent]

Money doesn't motivate emplyees to perform, the forces that make someone strive to do a good job are rarely intrinsictly financial.

Someone who takes pleasure in delivering gastro joy to others will make a better more motivated server than someone who doesn't feel as strongly about superior food service.

A simplistic example would the the illustration of a chef. They make crap money, work bad hours on their feet hustling, the monetary rewards are very slim except for the lucky few that hit the lotto as it were. Yet is there any shortgage of passionate chefs? Well, that could be argued but you get my point, they're not in it for the money.

Money is only what is considered a short term motivator. After a time the allure of moiney fades and old bad habits replace the good. That holds true for everyone. Praise, advancement and respect all are far stronger employee motivators than a couple extra bucks an hour.

[cnspriggs]

I guess I would like to hear an arguement on why waiter number one who pulls the cork on a $100 bottle of wine should get $20 whereas waiter number two who pulls a cork on a $50 bottle of wine should get $10. They did the same job. I don't mine tipping for sommelier that offers service or a even flat 'per bottle tip' but to base the tip of wine service on the price of the bottle does not make sense to me. I am positive I've read in articles that many people do not tip on wine in a restaurant or at least do not base the tip on a percentage of the cost.

[Keith Talent]

I'd actually like to hear that arguement too.

I'd also like to hear why we should all look the other way and titter politely when the 800 pound gorilla in the middle of this thread farts, namely the fact that these scumbag food service employees and restaurantuers should shut up about poor tippers and start paying their freakin' taxes like the rest of us.

Complete and total business model change is the answer. 15% service added to the bill. Everyone pays Rev Can so I can continue to get my 32 welfare scams paid (kidding, kidding.) Places with notorious bad service will go out of business, kinda like they do now.

[tommy]

I guess I would like to hear an arguement on why waiter number one who pulls the cork on a $100 bottle of wine should get $20 whereas waiter number two who pulls a cork on a $50 bottle of wine should get $10. They did the same job. I don't mine tipping for sommelier that offers service or a even flat 'per bottle tip' but to base the tip of wine service on the price of the bottle does not make sense to me. I am positive I've read in articles that many people do not tip on wine in a restaurant or at least do not base the tip on a percentage of the cost.

following that logic, you'd tip the same amount of money for a 10 dollar entree as you would a 35 dollar entree because the server did the same amount of work to bring it to your table.

[gastropimp]

As much as I've tried, I can't live on love alone,

While I applaud your idealism, in fact, I will fight to uphold it, the saddest reality of them all breaks down even a dedicated dreamer like the 'pimp.

The jaded and frustrated employer of the emancipated serving masses finds that, although passion exists, it's a fickle lover with many, many needs. Chefs, cooks and painters immerse themselves daily in their craft. The daily routine is akin to a tantric meditation, the processes therapeutically massaging meaning into dry drudgery, the tiny joys revealed in the cycles of life and minutae of details that coalesce to inspire our taste buds to flower and saliva to dance on their bubbly heads.

Yes, there is passion in that craft.

"Garcon! Boy, more bread here, please!"

"We'll just have two waters and two chicken, and here's our coupon"

"Can you substitute the potatoes for extra mushrooms, dairy on the side and tell the chef to cook the f.mignon well done for me."

"So which are you, actor or musician?"

"Waiter, I ordered zinfandel, and you poured me red wine!! Where is the blush?"

"Yes chef, no chef, right away chef. sorry chef."

"Listen, I know the owner, so make sure everything is perfect."

"What do you mean you don't have a table, Do you know who I am?"

"Hey, I just brought my own bottle of YellowTail, that's cool, right?

"Don't you have chicken fingers?"

"Dude! Large nachos and 2 pitchers of beer!"

"oh Dude, can we get a chick serving us?"

"Excuse me, but can all 14 of us have seperate bills please?"

"Where's your atkins menu?"

I'm sorry, I have to stop there.

This is a very small example of what I see peeling away the layers of passion on beautiful, smart and talented professionals in this business. If you asked any one of them, they would serve certain (maybe 10% of the general populace, probably 90% of gulleters) people for the pure joy of the craft. The rest, I'm sorry, but many of the diners just don't want passion from the f.o.h. staff, simply cold beer, friendly faces and thanks-very-much-have-a-good-night.

Does tips make it better? Probably not, but it helps to justify getting through the night to see if someone like coop or mr. talent will walk through the door and truly appreciate the details.

Passion exists, of course, but it must be fed, nurtured and challenged.

I, too, believe in something more intrinsically satisfying, more convincingly honest and more personally motivating. I haven't stopped believing, I have simply put my faith in humanity in a very safe place and look at it from time to time when I need to be reminded of the 'why's' in life.

Kieth, if you've not read Ayn Rand, it is a great story to say the least, you might understand my argument a little more than having to depend on my desperate attempts here.

[Daddy-A]

Wow g-pimp (or can I just call you G?) that was poetic. Well written ... truly. But somewhere along the way I think we have lost the intent of the thread. I don't think there was ever a question of IF we should tip ... but HOW.

In an earlier post I mentioned about how I don't believe a tip should be expected, rather it should be earned. I suppose that might sound cold and heartless ... except I failed to explain how I ALWAYS tip the 15%, and that better service than basic gets a better tip.

This is a very small example of what I see peeling away the layers of passion on beautiful, smart and talented professionals in this business.

Haven't I been hearing the same musings from the teachers and the health workers? Hospitality is a thankless career at times, true. But that is hardly a justification for the need to tip. If working conditions were appalling as a result of bad tips (the lefty in me makes an unexpected visit) maybe we could make the connection.

Like most occupations, the cream of the wait staff crop will rise to the top and make our forrays into the culinary worl all that more enjoyable. To those precious few I say a sated "Thanks".

[gastropimp]

Absolutely D-A.

Couldn't agree more, on all counts.

I was posting more on the nature of a new restaurant economic model which was a musing of someone previous.

What would be interesting is if we could nurture more kitchen tips.

i.e. I've seen many a regular who bring in everything from bottles of wine, hard to find beers, wine openers, sometimes just a simple thank you note penned on a napkin. The M.I.W. are often overlooked, overworked and underpaid.

I try to make a regular practice of buying a round of Stella's for the kitchen crew if I've had a great meal. It's always appreciated, and I think it's a small way to send some thanks in the right direction. (a friend of mine did this at Cioppino's once, not realizing the size of the b.o.h. staff! $200. later and a lot of handshakes, he learned his lesson!)

[Jensen]

There are many places in this country where servers get, like $2.01 to $2.13 an hour and then you have the min. wage workers declaring tips and being taxed for them.

Umm...No!

You must be from some other country because no one in Canada is paid that poorly.

I agree with Daddy-A-doubling the GST is the easiest way to determine a fair tip.

All the big tippers are from some other country... one in which restaurant owners abdicate their responsibility to pay a living wage because their wait staff can earn tips.

Double the GST and then bump it up a bit. Works for me!

[Jeffy Boy]

I always tip more at lunch, and even more at breakfast. 15% on a $6.95 breakfast is only a buck, which is mighty stingy. I usually go 15% for dinner, 20% for lunch and 30% for breakfast.

[cnspriggs]

I guess I would like to hear an arguement on why waiter number one who pulls the cork on a $100 bottle of wine should get $20 whereas waiter number two who pulls a cork on a $50 bottle of wine should get $10. They did the same job. I don't mine tipping for sommelier that offers service or a even flat 'per bottle tip' but to base the tip of wine service on the price of the bottle does not make sense to me. I am positive I've read in articles that many people do not tip on wine in a restaurant or at least do not base the tip on a percentage of the cost.

following that logic, you'd tip the same amount of money for a 10 dollar entree as you would a 35 dollar entree because the server did the same amount of work to bring it to your table.

I disagree. The difference is that if you are spending $10 for an entree you are likely at a less fancy establishment than if you are spending $30 for an entree. As gastropimp points out the fancy restaurants should (but they don't always...) have superior service with better trained and more experienced staff and therefore a larger tip is deserved. Therefore the waiter who delivers the $30 entree in the fancy restaurant presumably earns the $6 tip compared to the $2 tip for the waiter delivering the $10 entree.

This does not hold for wine. Wine in the simplest of restaurants spans $20-$100 dollars a bottle and hence a range of tip from $4-$20. The service will be the same no matter what bottle you choose and therefore I do not believe that waiter who delivers the more expensive bottle should get the larger tip. Further if we are in an expensive restaurant the bottles could range as high as $500+ meaning that the waiter who pulled that cork by your logic would get a $100 tip for the exact same service. Since tips are supposed to be about service I do not believe that wine should be tipped by the % of the cost of the bottle.

[tommy]

I disagree. The difference is that if you are spending $10 for an entree you are likely at a less fancy establishment than if you are spending $30 for an entree.

not necessarily. but, for argument's sake, pretend i wrote 20 dollars and 35 dollars, which i think is a spread that is well-represented on many menus.