How often do you eat Indian food?

[prasad2]

Sorry.

Much of the best Indian I've had was not spicy at ALL. It's always spicy in the sense that its heavily seasoned, but I've had plenty of dishes where curry and/or chilis--if present--were moderate, by design.

Mexican... same thing to an extent.

I think people outside of these countries, by and large, have picked up on the spicy aspects of these food and often overlook the more subtle dishes. They don't sell as well, I guess.

Now to be totally up-front--I love spicy food. But I'm generally more inclined to eat Thai, Chinese or even Italian food spicy than Indian or Mexican--although I suppose the low-point of my "spicy" scale is higher than most people's.

Oh... given the fact that there is only one really good Indian place near me, I don't eat Indian all that often anymore. But back when I worked down the street from a great place I ate lunch there twice a week.

[prasad2]

But I know it's annoying to dining companions (and embarrassing to me) to constantly have to ask which dishes are spicy, or can the chef reduce the heat on this or that item - especially when everyone else at the table loves the spiciness and eats Indian food for that very reason.

As a restaurateur I can say it is not annoying at all from our side. In fact we will be more than happy to listen to you and suggest, what we think might be right for you.

Again, the food is not all that HOT unless you want it to be HOT. Our business is more than food, it's hospitality as well.... We thrive and thrive to satisfy your taste buds....

Prasad

[jhlurie]

Also, not sure what dishes you usually eat, but if you could name a few of those that you have enjoyed or not, we could disect them in this forum and see if curry in any form would have/should have made its way into them.

Disect away. We don't even have to talk about less-known dishes to discuss this, since posters who eat less Indian food may lose their point of reference. Common dishes like Tikka Masala (although I've been told at least a few times that Tikka Masala is not a genuine Indian dish) and Saag Paneer are--at least ideally--only moderately spiced. Most Biriyani I've had is mild as well. Jalfraze, Madras, Tava and Korma, in various variants, I've had in a wide range from mild to spicy.

On the "spicy" side? Rogan Josh, Vindaloo (obviously!), most of the Aloo dishes... stuff like that.

I can't see my experience in this being much different from most people's.

[Suvir Saran]

Also, not sure what dishes you usually eat, but if you could name a few of those that you have enjoyed or not, we could disect them in this forum and see if curry in any form would have/should have made its way into them.

Disect away. We don't even have to talk about less-known dishes to discuss this, since posters who eat less Indian food may lose their point of reference. Common dishes like Tikka Masala (although I've been told at least a few times that Tikka Masala is not a genuine Indian dish) and Saag Paneer are--at least ideally--only moderately spiced. Most Biriyani I've had is mild as well. Jalfraze, Madras, Tava and Korma, in various variants, I've had in a wide range from mild to spicy.

On the "spicy" side? Rogan Josh, Vindaloo (obviously!), most of the Aloo dishes... stuff like that.

I can't see my experience in this being much different from most people's.

Speaking summarily and making a grave generalization (that could certainly be crushed, if some chef is doing what most no Indian chef would ever do), the "Curry" you mention (which could be curry powder) should not be in any of these dishes you mention.

Tikka Masala is as Indian as India has been since Independence of India. The family that is credited as being the creators of this Dish are based in Delhi and have a famous chain of restaurants called Moti Mahal. Maybe the name Chicken Tikka Masala could have been concocted outside of Delhi.... but the dish is theirs to claim. No "Curry" (curry leaf or curry powder in this recipe). Any heat you speak of, comes from addition of cayenne or chile powder, which could change from kitchen to kitchen.

The reason I asked you to name some dishes was for this very exercise, to showcase my point, that what people call curry, is neither curry leaf, nor curry powder nor curry in terms of being a sauce. Curry is being summarily used to speak of Indian food. And that is what it is.

Of all the dishes you mention, two dishes could have curry leaves in them, if rendered by a Southern chef and done so carefully. These are Korma (if it is a Southern Korma) and Madras (whatever that dish is. Could you tell us more about this dish??? I have no clue as to what to think of by the name Madras. I know it is the capital of the Indian state Tamil Nadu, and maybe a dish from that region). But other than these two, none of the dishes you mention could have even moderate amounts of that "curry". They have no need for (curry leaf or powder), they have their own set of spices.

When you say Aloo dishes, you do understand Aloo is the word for Potato. Aloo dishes could be made on the sweeter side if you are eating Gujerati cuisine, on the fiery side if found in a Vindaloo with pork, fiery if you are eating a Konkan chile pepper version of karahi aloo.. or eat a very mild, but beautifully seasoned Korma from Lucknow. Again, there is hardly any version that would have Curry Powder that would find its way into most Indian kitchens, but certainly Aloo recipes from Southern India (which we unfortunately hardly ever find in most Indian restaurants) could use Curry leaves.

Vindaloo is HOT (spicy) when it is made true to the traditions of Goan cuisine. In fact it is usually very hot and most chefs will temper the heat when preparing this dish for non-Goans. I had to beg a friend to make sure to tell the chef at a Goan restaurant in Goa not to temper down the spicing for the Vindaloo he was preparing for our group.

A good Rogan Josh is not a dish that ever ought to be HOT (spicy). It should be a lamb curry (curry used to denote a sauce) that has the traditional Indian magic of mixing spices and herbs together to create a sauce and finished dish that has a perfect balance between taste, texture and form. But who knows, maybe some chefs are changing the classic recipe and catering to an audience they know perhaps does not care for authentic, and so thet get away with rendering dishes as they please, with no connection to their roots. Such stuff happens all the time. But again, Rogan Josh, no matter how much cayenne you may put in it, should have no curry in it at all.

Jalfrazie again should have no curry at all. And get ready, the one ingredient it has, is on the sweeter side. But not many chefs use it today in Jalfrazie, and many would never admit to using it, it is good ole Heinz Ketchup (or any other brand). It is not usually a spicy dish. More of the sweet/sour type. And a brilliant color. The Ketchup helps with coloring as well.

Saag Paneer will never have curry powder or curry leaves. It should hardly ever be spicy. This dish is as subtle as any can get. It is also one of the easiest ones to prepare and a very popular Indian dish both in India and outside of the Indian sub-continent.

Biryaanis that I am aware of will also never have "curry" in any form. And they should generally be mild in heat and full in flavor. That is what makes them a celebration of the Oudh style of cooking. And this subtlety of flavor and their popularity across India, made them find a ready place in most kitchens across India.

Maybe this thread can become one of those threads in the Indian forum that will Demystify those not intimately familiar with Indian cooking about what "curry" IS (sauce for the most part, or when simply identifying the use of curry leaf in certain dishes) and what it is NOT (not a spice, mix or herb used in Indian cooking for the most part, in some, very few instances, curry powder may find its way, but those recipes are rare if you go looking in the world of Indian cooking. Curry powder is more common in cuisines that are foreign to India).

[jhlurie]

Again, I must reiterate the fact that I never believed that most of these dishes had any relation to curry powder, although I am interested to hear which of them may or may not have had curry leaf.

http://www.curryhouse.co.uk/rsc/madras.htm - for an example of what someone thinks Madras is, although they seem to be describing it as a bit hotter than I recall, and they are certainly using cookie-cutter ingredients.

Look, to me "curry powder" is simply a shortcut that some people take when they don't want to mix spices themselves. I certainly don't like or approve of the idea of people using the same mix of spices in different dishes, and I'm certainly not assuming its used even by the worst cook in dishes like Tikka Masala, Biryaani or Sag Paneer--where it would be ridiculous to include some of the spices which seem to be included in some of these curry powders, most especially but not exclusively the chili powder. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I noticed my loose use of Aloo and almost edited it, but frankly most of the Indian Potato SIDE dishes I've had WERE spiced heavily for the very logical reason that Potatoes have very little taste themselves. As a vegetarian side, I've been virtually assured that a Potato dish will be spicy, but that's probably because Gujerati cuisine isn't as accessible to me. As an ingredient in something else... obviously this doesn't apply.

Its interesting that you say that Rogan Josh shouldn't be spicy. I'll admit that the best ones I've had weren't, but I've also had many lesser ones that were.

Edited May 21, 2003 by jhlurie (log)

[KNorthrup]

This is probably not the sort of answer you had in mind, but I always have a bunch of those pouches -- Tasty Bite? -- for when I don't feel like cooking. Instead of take-out or a sandwich. Best thing is to mix the one that's curried potatoes and garbonzo beans with a bag of frozen mediteranean blend veggies and then top it with a fried egg with a very runny yolk. The one thing I always buy from the restaurant down the street rather than make is chicken makhani (sp?). The leftover tandoori chicken in butter sauce. It's so good and takes so long to prepare that it's worth just paying for it when the craving strikes. We used to get Indian take-out whenever Red Dwarf was on, although my wimpy palate could never handle the vindaloo.

[Suvir Saran]

This is probably not the sort of answer you had in mind, but I always have a bunch of those pouches -- Tasty Bite? -- for when I don't feel like cooking.  Instead of take-out or a sandwich.  Best thing is to mix the one that's curried potatoes and garbonzo beans with a bag of frozen mediteranean blend veggies and then top it with a fried egg with a very runny yolk.  The one thing I always buy from the restaurant down the street rather than make is chicken makhani (sp?). The leftover tandoori chicken in butter sauce.  It's so good and takes so long to prepare that it's worth just paying for it when the craving strikes.  We used to get Indian take-out whenever Red Dwarf was on, although my wimpy palate could never handle the vindaloo.

I have eaten several pouches of Tasty Bite stuff and felt happy about it myself. They are good.

Which are your favorite ones?

[Suvir Saran]

Best thing is to mix the one that's curried potatoes and garbonzo beans with a bag of frozen mediteranean blend veggies and then top it with a fried egg with a very runny yolk.

Is this the one called Bombay Aloo?

[BBhasin]

I'm here to confess that eat Indian food maybe once or twice a year - in fact, I avoid it whenever possible. I know that there are many wonderful and unique flavors to be found in Indian cuisine, but 90% of the time it's just too spicy for me to eat. For me, spicy food equals pain, and I would rather enjoy a meal than live through it. It's the same thing for most Mexican food. Thai food can also be a problem, but at least I can usually vary the heat when I order ("no stars, please").

Sorry.

Thanks for your confession. But I am intrigued, that in spite of all this you DO make an effort to try Indian once or twice a year, what motivates you? A special friend perhaps?

Whatever the reason, thank you for making the attempt ,as a restaurant person I salute you.

May I share the following with you......

An esteemed food magazine ,Food & Wine or Gourmet , conducted a reader survey and asked respondents to name the herb they detested most. The conclusion was Cilantro, which was surprising as salsa has been outselling ketchup. To most people who responded it left a 'soapy taste' in the mouth.

Why am I telling you this, because all people are different and the same thing cannot appeal to everyone.

On the other hand I get patrons who on the one hand give very strict instructions that they do not want to see any cilantro on their food and on the other literally soak up all the cilantro based chutney that is served to them by mistake with their appetiser. So, there IS hope for you.

Then the esteemed Readers Digest a few years ago had an article on the ten things that make you feel good. Listed were things like meditation, exersise and yoga, sex, chocolate and yes my friend... HOT & SPICY foods!

which apparently give you a slight endorphine rush making you a little ' high' and feel good.

Just one of the benefits of hot & spicy foods!

While saying all this I must truly confess that while waiting in a doctors office once I read an article in a medical journal that people do react differently to hot foods. Some people can get blisters on their skin if toched by a hot pepper/juice. While in others ingestion of hot & spicy foods causes the body so much trauma that it shuts off some of its systems and persons have been known to simply pass out.

Indian food though spicy is not necessarily hot. Just like certain regions in the US like Louisiana, Texas etc are considered hot & spicy when food is mentioned, does it mean that everyone in Louisiana and Texas eats fire? It is the same with India and Indian cuisine and though there are tradtionally hot regional cuisines it all boils down to a matter of personal preference. If turmuric does not bother you in the mustard on your hot dog, I do not think it will effect you in your chicken curry. It might be the hot chilli or cayenne. I would suggest starting at a really low level and working your way to where you enjoy it most. Indian cuisine is not about hot.

If you can share on the forum what you have been ordering and if you remember, the name of the restaurant. I am sure there are a lot of members who can guide you to curry nirvana.

[Haggis]

Saag Paneer will never have curry powder or curry leaves.  It should hardly ever be spicy. This dish is as subtle as any can get.

I have had mild Saag Paneers and I have had hot ones. I much prefer the hot ones. By hot, I don't mean scorching hot, but a moderate amount of raw green cayenne and fresh ginger. I appreciated one that I tried at Delhi Palace in Jackson Heights which had noticeable long strands of julienned ginger perched on top as a garnish. When I cook it at home, I usually fry up the spices and then I add raw ginger, chopped green cayenne or jalapeno, chopped garlic, and lots of onions. Occasionally in a pinch I will skip the frying of the spices and use a commercial grade of Garam Masala instead with satisfactory results. I use either tamarind or lemon as my souring agent, and I like a combination of half sour cream and half high fat yogurt as my cream base. Sometimes I add butter, and sometimes I leave it out. I usually add chopped cilantro as a garnish. I buy my paneer cheese at Indian groceries. I like to brown the paneer cubes to a medium gold. I hope my preparation doesn't sound too inauthentic for Suvir, Monica and other Indians reading. I just don't enjoy the subtle ones as much. Could anyone suggest an Indian restaurant in the New York metro area that they consider to serve a great subtle version of Saag Paneer? Maybe even go further and say which NYC Indian has their fave Saag Paneer regardless of heat and subtlety?

[jhlurie]

My knowledge on Mexican food is very limited, could you please explain what spices are used in Mexican cuisine.

Mexican cuisine, very much like Indian, is actually a group of different regional cusines lumped together by outsiders. I'm far from expert, but the Mexico and West/Southwest United States (which gets a bit more traffic than Mexico) forums are probably good places to dig (or ask) for more specifics.

I don't know all of the spices used, but a least a few of them are identical to Indian cuisine--cilantro/corainder (usually as a leaf, not as a seed), salt, black pepper, red pepper and chili oil (although I don't think from the same types of chilis as Indian), anise, marjoram, thyme, Chipotle (which is actually derived from a smoked pepper), garlic, onion, cinnamon, oregano, parsley, basil, cumin... I'm sure I'm missing tons of others.

Wait... I just found a link to a list of Mexican spices.

[Haggis]

I neglected to include in my previous post how often I ate Indian. Twice a week on average in restaurants, and twice a month prepared in my own kitchen.

[BBhasin]

I have had mild Saag Paneers and I have had hot ones. I much prefer the hot ones. By hot, I don't mean scorching hot, but a moderate amount of raw green cayenne and fresh ginger. I appreciated one that I tried at Delhi Palace in Jackson Heights which had noticeable long strands of julienned ginger perched on top as a garnish. When I cook it at home, I usually fry up the spices and then I add raw ginger, chopped green cayenne or jalapeno, chopped garlic, and lots of onions. Occasionally in a pinch I will skip the frying of the spices and use a commercial grade of Garam Masala instead with satisfactory results. I use either tamarind or lemon as my souring agent, and I like a combination of half sour cream and half high fat yogurt as my cream base. Sometimes I add butter, and sometimes I leave it out. I usually add chopped cilantro as a garnish. I buy my paneer cheese at Indian groceries. I like to brown the paneer cubes to a medium gold. I hope my preparation doesn't sound too inauthentic for Suvir, Monica and other Indians reading. I just don't enjoy the subtle ones as much. Could anyone suggest an Indian restaurant in the New York metro area that they consider to serve a great subtle version of Saag Paneer? Maybe even go further and say which NYC Indian has their fave Saag Paneer regardless of heat and subtlety?

Haggis,

where did you come up with your version of the saag paneer? Is it from a book or did you 'tweak' a reciepe.

I am curious as I have not come accross either tamarind or lemon in saag paneer. Most in northern Indian homes use tomatoes ( which you dont actually see in the finished dish). Addition of fresh cilantro and dried methi(fenugreek) leaves at the end for flavor is also popular. Sour cream, cream etc also is a pretty much a restaurant thing, to give the dish richness and make it different from the homey stuff. In Indian homes these days, adding raw cubes of paneer is popular as browning the paneer denaturises the protien and makes it hard to digest. Also I am not too sure about the garam masalla business, if you keep adding it to everything it may all end up tasting the same. Do you puree the saag or do you leave it kind of chopped? In the good old days the wife, in India, did not work and she would spend hours slow cooking the saag and it would end up in a smooth mush( perhaps a wrong word) thanks to her constant stirring/mashing action. This was really appriciated by all because of the amount of effort that went into it. Indian restaurants would simply puree the spinach mechenically after cooking as it indicated the same effort.

Saag, incidently, FYI if you do not already know means greens and can be mustard, kale, spinach etc. Palak is specifically spinach. Though when you say saag paneer it is spinach that is being used.

bhasin

[BBhasin]

and Madras (whatever that dish is.  Could you tell us more about this dish???  I have no clue as to what to think of by the name Madras.  I know it is the capital of the Indian state Tamil Nadu, and maybe a dish from that region). 

Suvir,

Madras is a term that denotes a degree of hot & spicy. It is a term coined in the UK most likely by the early restauranteurs who created a ' Hot & Spicy Scale ' to comunicate with diners. Take 1 to 10. 1 being mild and 10 being painfully hot. This is how I think it works.

1 to 2.......Korma ( perhaps because they are usually mild )

3 to 4.......Curry

5 to 6........Madras ( maybe they wanted to create a level hotter than regular but less than vindaloo)

7 to 8........Vindaloo

9 to 10.......Phall

Phall. I only heard this term after arriving in the US, from english patrons. The first time when he asked, can you make it Phall, I did not know what he was talking about and thought I should have paid more attention in cooking class. Later, I leaned from others that all he was seeking was very, very hot food.

Maybe some member in the UK can authenticate this.

We do make a Chicken Madras at the restaurant, sometimes. And the seasoning IS turned up a bit. But the reference is also to the traditional Southern seasonings( fenugreek seeds, mustard seeds, curry leaves, dried red chillies, peppercorns, cloves, coconut , both ground and milk, tamarind etc) and the Southern process of dry roasting the spices and grinding them to a paste. So we are to blame for some of the the Madras confusion.

bhasin

[Suvir Saran]

Thanks Bhasin! That was informative.

I make a chicken dish that is very popular. It is Chicken Chettinad. Traditionally this is a very fragrant chicken and the heat comes from a generous use of peppercorns. It is really a delicious chicken dish from the South and has become somewhat known in NYC in the last few years. I believe Pondicherry and Bay Leaf were the first to serve it. Madras Chicken could be a similar version I guess.

[Monica Bhide]

Fish Chettinad is also being served up at Legal SeaFoods (the chain) -- it has little or no resemblence to the real thing -- shows the popluarity of the dish and (Indian) cuisine though

Edited May 22, 2003 by Monica Bhide (log)

[Suvir Saran]

Fish Chettinad is also being served up at Legal SeaFoods (the chain) -- it has little or no resemblence to the real thing -- shows the popluarity of the dish and cuisine though

That is amazing.

And what cuisine are we talking about in terms of popularity? (Indian?)

[anil]

Fish Chettinad is also being served up at Legal SeaFoods (the chain) -- it has little or no resemblence to the real thing -- shows the popluarity of the dish and (Indian) cuisine though

Coconut Grove (now defunct) in NYC served Kolivada Machi and Chettinad Fish fried in a light besan batter with tamrind based broth -- oh Well !!!

[Suvir Saran]

5{a Bhide,May 22 2003, 09:28 AM] Fish Chettinad is also being served up at Legal SeaFoods (the chain) -- it has little or no resemblence to the real thing -- shows the popluarity of the dish and (Indian) cuisine though

Coconut Grove (now defunct) in NYC served Kolivada Machi and Chettinad Fish fried in a light besan batter with tamrind based broth -- oh Well !!!

[Suvir Saran]

Fish Chettinad is also being served up at Legal SeaFoods (the chain) -- it has little or no resemblence to the real thing -- shows the popluarity of the dish and cuisine though

That is amazing.

And what cuisine are we talking about in terms of popularity? (Indian?)

Thanks for clarifying that Monica.

I had wondered if perhaps Chettinad Cuisine had become popular in DC and neighboring areas. I would love to see that happen.

It is true gem in the Indian genre and unfortunately, is not easily found even within India. Delhi has a couple of restaurants serving this food, but it is mostly found in the local homes, in the home of the ruling family and their extended families and friend circle and also in weddings of the elite, who are able to hire these private chefs to come dazzle their guests with an evening of this regions foods.

And yes, Legal Seafoods (sp?) serving this dish speaks a lot about Indian cuisine slowly makings its way into the world of chain restaurants. Could you tell us more about Legal Seafood (sp?), please? What kind of a chain is it? What other stuff do they have on their menu? How was this dish prepared? What did you personally think of it?

On an aside, Gael Greene had been to Southern India before Kerala became the hot Indian spot for American tourists. She had visited some wonderful local food spots and also eaten Chettinad food in homes and prepared by private chefs, I know she came back and wrote beautiful pieces for several publications about the South and the foods of Kerela and Chettinad. The next thing I know, rice boats and the coconut grove had become soaringly popular.

Hopefully, soon, we shall have more regional restaurants in the US. And even a Chettinad one.

[KNorthrup]

Best thing is to mix the one that's curried potatoes and garbonzo beans with a bag of frozen mediteranean blend veggies and then top it with a fried egg with a very runny yolk.

Is this the one called Bombay Aloo?

It's called Bombay Potatoes on the box, but yes. It's better with leftover tamarind chutney from any recent takeout.

[Suvir Saran]

Best thing is to mix the one that's curried potatoes and garbonzo beans with a bag of frozen mediteranean blend veggies and then top it with a fried egg with a very runny yolk.

Is this the one called Bombay Aloo?

It's called Bombay Potatoes on the box, but yes. It's better with leftover tamarind chutney from any recent takeout.

Aloo is hindi for potato. Sorry for remembering it incorrectly.

The company was founded by a friend. They have since sold it.

I used to sample their products and unlike many others, these I would be happy to eat.

What other products of theirs do you like? The Bombay Potatoes were my favorite.

[Haggis]

Haggis, where did you come up with your version of the saag paneer? Is it from a book or did you 'tweak' a recipe. I am curious as I have not come accross either tamarind or lemon in saag paneer. Most in northern Indian homes use tomatoes (which you dont actually see in the finished dish)

Bhasin - my recipe for saag paneer is based on the gleanings of more than a dozen recipes I've come across over the years. Yes, I have tweaked it many times to arrive at my ideal for this dish. I have no doubt it can be improved upon. I do not puree or process my saag. I use frozen chopped spinach usually, though I occasionally hand chop fresh spinach. The dish is not as good when I use garam masala as when I fry the spices whole, but as I said, in a pinch it can produce satisfactory results. I've actually seen tiny stands of tomato skin in this dish in restaurants at times, so I knew it existed in some versions. And of course tomatoes are highly present in mattar paneer, usually. At least one of the recipes I based my final product on did call for either lemon or tamarind. I think lemon and spinach are a natural together, even if they do not come together in the classic Northern preparation of the dish. When I order the dish in restaurants, I always request a lemon wedge on the side to squeeze on top. Would I be looked at strangely by Indians if they witnessed this? Indian waiters witness me doing this all the time, but perhaps they are trained to keep their opinions to themselves. If one spoke up and told me I was doing something contrary to the Indian experience, I would be far from offended. I'd prefer they tell me. I'd probably still do it. I would love to have your preferred recipe for saag panner, Bhasin. Would you consider posting it?

Edited May 22, 2003 by Haggis (log)

[Pan]

Suvir:

You'd be interested to know that my father cooks a Madhur Jaffrey Chettinad Chicken recipe, except that he quadruples the amount of urad dal, and it's very popular among my immediate family and their friends (mine, too, when they've been to my folks' for dinner). More recently, he found another recipe (I forget by who) of a different Chettinad Chicken that is even better.

[prasad2]

Thanks Bhasin!  That was informative.

I make a chicken dish that is very popular.  It is Chicken Chettinad.  Traditionally this is a very fragrant chicken and the heat comes from a generous use of peppercorns.  It is really a delicious chicken dish from the South and has become somewhat known in NYC in the last few years.  I believe Pondicherry and Bay Leaf were the first to serve it.  Madras Chicken could be a similar version I guess.

Chicken Chettinad is very very traditional, authentic and delicious more of yogurt and blackpepper base.

Chicken Madras ic GolMal ( Non-traditional and made up ) more of coconut and red chilies, and there is nothing wrong with made up dishes as long as they taste good.

I like bhasins different grading on heat levels of 1, 2, 3 and so on ...