Pastrami News

[WHT]

In other words, if you give me a Hebrew National pastrami and I steam it for a good long time and slice it by hand and serve it on good rye with good mustard, and you give some other person the exact same piece of meat and he steams it only for a short time and slices it thin on a high-speed commercial deli slicer and serves it on crap supermarket bread with crap mustard, pretty much everybody will say that my pastrami is different (and better), when in fact it's the same and what people are reacting to are the post-processing steps I've taken.

This scenario plays out all the time in Chicago. Two major suppliers and 100’s of places serving it in different combinations and cooking methods. Strangely enough the same thing with Gyro meat.

[WHT]

their pastrami has this brownish coloring which I wasn't used to and might have put me off.

Can anyone confirm or deny that the reddish color we like in pastrami is due to saltpetre (sodium nitrate). that reddish color we like in certain processed meats and sausages usually comes from saltpetre/saltpeter. Bacon processed without nitrates is usually a less appetizing brown.

Also the temperature it is smoked at will make a difference in the color. If fast and hot it will be darker.

[WHT]

Well, let me qualify that a bit.  We make our own smoked corned beef (which, to my understanding, is fundamentally what a pastrami is.)

Corned Beef and Pastrami are two different things. While they both can be made from the same cuts of meat they are entirely different processes. Corned beef is a totally cold process. Lightly pickled beef would be a more accurate description.

Take the same cut of beef; soak it in a heavy brine with the following;

Black pepper (cracked and whole)

Allspice

Cinnamon

Mustard seeds or powder.

Coriander

Ginger

Mace

Dried red peppers

Cloves

Cardamom.

Let soak in a sealed container for at least a week. It can be kept for months in a sealed environment at low temp. (33-45F) Simmer, team or slow roast the meat, trim slice serve.

Pastrami as you have described is a dry rub followed by smoking. Two separate ways to keep beef around for a time without refrigeration.

[Fat Guy]

The issue is that the vast majority of commercial pastrami out there is not made via a dry rub process but is, rather, brined in much the same manner as corned beef. Only a few old-school producers use the dry rub, as I understand it. So "smoked corned beef equals pastrami" is not far off, given the reality of most pastrami. It won't give you traditional, top-of-the-line pastrami, though.

[WHT]

The issue is that the vast majority of commercial pastrami out there is not made via a dry rub process but is, rather, brined in much the same manner as corned beef. Only a few old-school producers use the dry rub, as I understand it. So "smoked corned beef equals pastrami" is not far off, given the reality of most pastrami. It won't give you traditional, top-of-the-line pastrami, though.

But if you look at the seasonings used and the overall process they are rather different. Yes you do soak the meat in brine to make Pastrami but if I remember correctly that is more from a kosher aspect than preserving the product. The seasonings have some similarities but corned beef seems to have more. Also sugar is used in pastrami as part of the rub. Not so in corned beef.

Yes both are ways of preserving the same cuts of meat. But even the definitions differ.

pastrami

noun highly seasoned smoked beef, esp. prepared from a shoulder cut

[ETYMOLOGY: from Yiddish, from Romanian pastrama, from pastra to preserve]

corned

adjective (esp. of beef) cooked and then preserved or pickled in salt or brine, now often canned

By this the reverse would seem to be correct. Heck they both make a nice sandwich.

[alanz]

WHT,

I respectfully resubmit that smoking a corned beef is fundamentally what a pastrami is.

Soaking the brisket in brine is one way to produce the corned brisket that will later be smoked. Whether the corning process is done in brine or via a dry rub is just a matter of technique... the results are virtually identical.

Also, some folk smoke the brisket for only a couple of hours, and then finish the cooking by steaming or braising later. I prefer to finish the cooking over coals in the smoker (typically 12 to 16 hours smoking time total.)

Most recipes I've seen for pastrami list corned beef as their starting point, recognizing that most folk don't want to take a week or more to prepare a dish for cooking.

As mentioned earlier, corning your own brisket lets you control the ingredients, and if you don't mind brown slices, you can omit the saltpeter that most recipes call for (which is just there to keep the meat pink.)

Regardless of the technique used, if someone has the smoking equipment, it's a great treat to have pastrami (smoked corned beef, or whatever else it might be called) straight off the cooker. If no smoker is available, then the simplicity of making great corned beef from scratch is worth the experiment... it's so simple to do.

I use a recipe from Cook's Illustrated... take a peek at:

Corned beef recipe with link to smoked corned beef page

[WHT]

I am not trying to be a yutz but I do think there is some confusion on the whole brisket issue. Using a similar form of logic all smoked brisket would be pastrami. In some ways it might even be correct. Smoking is a way to preserve meat. Going back to the root of the word and its meaning that may still hold true. The site you reference refers to the smoked corned beef as being pastrami-like. Big difference!

I took the time to call 3 major producers of meat. Hebrew National, Vienna Beef and Best Kosher. I asked the same questions and got similar answers from all of them. Does smoking corned beef make pastrami? Short answer was a resounding NO in some case preceded by laughter. One of the people asked me if I ate pastrami on white with mayo. No, that would be a crime. We laughed.

I will post the information two of the companies are sending. Probably as a link to a PDF file. One explains the history of some of the products that we have been talking about. Corned or more correctly pickled beef originates in the pre UK. Pastrami is a lot more recent process from central Europe.

While my favorite Jamaican place and BBQ joint make a smoked brisket that has a dry rub followed by long smoking, I would never call either pastrami. I have had smoked and slow roasted corned beef a couple of times. To me it is an entirely different texture and flavor. I prefer the smoked to the slow roasted in part to the higher fat saturation in the meat. I think it gives it a better flavor.

As an interesting note I did finds a few places on the web that give some strange advice for making both pastrami and corned beef. Yes, some of them did suggest using corned beef as a starter. But I tend to trust the three producers that I talked to. Other things I encountered where using a 7-bone roast and the use of shoulder meat rather than brisket. Might be interesting to try flank steak too. Mentions of other animals than beef where listed for pastrami. Buffalo was logical some of the others like alligator where a little dubious.

Eat what you enjoy is the point of it I guess.

Edited July 18, 2003 by WHT (log)

[alanz]

WHT,

As for calling the product "Pastrami-like"... well that is my own personal web site, and hence my text.

I would not call any smoked brisket a pastrami. A pastrami is a corned brisket that has been coated with spices (mostly pepper) after the corning process, and then smoked... a very different taste and texture than a typical smoked brisket

[Fat Guy]

It doesn't have to be brisket. Plate is, I believe, more traditional. Having tasted Klink's smoked corned beef I can say there are marked differences between it and the traditional New York Jewish deli style of pastrami. At the same time, a good piece of smoked corned beef is to me far more pastrami-like than so many products out there in supermarkets and delis that call themselves pastrami but have never been dry-cured or smoked. So I'd say that, while smoking corned beef doesn't give you real New York deli-style pastrami, it does give you pastrami or at least something more pastrami-like than many mass-market products that call themselves pastrami.

[Chef Fowke]

Not to get off on a tangent...

Main Entry: pas·tra·mi

Variant(s): also pas·tromi /p&-'strä-mE/

Function: noun

Etymology: Yiddish pastrame, from Romanian pastrama pressed and cured meat

I have eaten goose, lamb, turkey and salmon pastrami. They were all cured with the same type of spices and pressed.

For my dollar the best pastrami is pickled flank or plate that has been spiced, smoked and pressed.

[melkor]

Just to be scientific about this, I went to cash and carry, bought a 13lb corned beef brisket, rinsed it off, coated it with a black pepper/coriander/garlic rub and smoked it at 210*F for 9 hours. After it was done I had a few slices to see how it came out - it's a definite cross between pastrami and corned beef.

I let it cool and put it in the fridge, the next day I steamed it for 3 hours before making a sammich - this definitely tastes like pastrami, no question about it. The homemade pickles complete the meal.

The other end of the brisket is significantly more marbled and I expect it will taste better than the very lean part that this sammich was made from.

[VivreManger]

melkor Posted on Jul 19 2003, 10:35 AM

corned beef brisket

These pictures are almost enough to make me run off to California and get a slice, abandoning the smoked-meat tables of Montreal and and the pastrami pots of New York.

But I do want to clarify one detail, Melkor. Did you buy a raw brisket, suitable for making corned beef or a brisket that had already been corned as you literally wrote? In other words is this from scratch or did you improve upon an already processed product?

[melkor]

melkor Posted on Jul 19 2003, 10:35 AM

corned beef brisket

These pictures are almost enough to make me run off to California and get a slice, abandoning the smoked-meat tables of Montreal and and the pastrami pots of New York.

But I do want to clarify one detail, Melkor. Did you buy a raw brisket, suitable for making corned beef or a brisket that had already been corned as you literally wrote? In other words is this from scratch or did you improve upon an already processed product?

I started with a cryovac'd corned beef brisket -- it's a processed but un-cooked hunk of cow.

[alanz]

Melcor,

When you cut some slices from the thicker end of the brisket (called the point, deckle, or second cut)... try frying the slices or grilling them.

They crisp up a bit and make a wonderful sandwich.

[alanz]

I thought I'd share one of my experiments from a few months ago,

Because I'm such a fan of corning meats, I started to wonder if anyone ever corned pork.

I really didn't find many examples, so I talked to my prime butcher, and he suggested corning pork ribs.

So, I used the technique that I described earlier in this thread and corned the ribs for 7 days (next time, I've decided I'll limit the corning to 3 or 4 days)

I then coated the ribs with pepper/coriander/garlic etc and smoked them.

I asked my wife how she'd describe the meat, and she said:

"It's pastrami on a stick" < s >

I dropped off some to Fink's Funky Chicken & Ribs (2 minutes from my home), ... for Fink and Andrew to taste.

I didn't hear back from Fink, but Andrew loved them!

Next attempt will be corning beef ribs.

Edited July 21, 2003 by alanz (log)

[Kent Wang]

Is there anything new in the world of New York pastrami? I will be in the city this weekend and would like to taste a few.

[weinoo]

Well, the 2nd Avenue deli has reopened, but other than that, I can't think of any new, ground-breaking pastrami that has surfaced.

[Shel_B]

SteveW, did he say Ben's was his favorite? I thought Katz's was at the top of the list.

I've never been to Ben's -- I hope it's a great Levine discovery. I imagine lots of folks will be checking it out soon!

←

I grew up in the area, and Ben's was our deli of choice. It was damned good. Whenever I go back to NY, Ben's is one of the first stops I make, although I've not been back in about eight years. Our family has been going to Ben's since 1947, when we moved into the area.

It's upsetting to learn that Jay's not making his own pastrami and corned beef any more.

shel

Edited August 23, 2008 by Shel_B (log)