Pastrami News

[reggie_212]

My comment of great pastrami in Chicago, I was mainly thinking of Manny's.  Saveur magazine put them in their latest Saveur 100 list,  as having  "among the best pastrami anywhere."

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Steve

Whoever put Manny's pastrami as being among the best is dead wrong. While I found Manny's corned beef a decent enough sandwich, the pastrami is almost indescribably terrible. First, it has a too greasy, as if they deep fried it for a few minutes, quality. Second, the spicing is all wrong, not even close to a NY pastrami. In fact, whenever friends would visit me from NY (I was in business school at the time) and I would take them to Manny's, against my good advice they would order the pastrami and cry at how bad it was in comparison. Last note, their pastrami has this brownish coloring which I wasn't used to and might have put me off.

Edited May 2, 2003 by reggie_212 (log)

[Fat Guy]

Maybe, but the focus of the article is on New York Pastrami.  I don't see a valid reason for questioning why product from outside of NYC is not discussed.

He discusses the pastrami from a deli in LA. He also makes the following claim: "Let's get one thing straight. New York is the pastrami capital of the world. There can be no battle for hemispheric pastrami supremacy. When it comes to pastrami, New York is the beginning, and the end." That is simply not the case: Montreal smoked meat from Schwartz's, Snowdon, and others, is serious competition. Even if one ultimately weighs in favor of New York pastrami, it is hardly an open and shut case in the opinion of anybody I know who has seriously pursued both products. He defined the boundaries of his article, not us. But given the boundaries he defined, the failure to mention Montreal smoked meat strikes me as a puzzling omission.

[Bux]

their pastrami has this brownish coloring which I wasn't used to and might have put me off.

Can anyone confirm or deny that the reddish color we like in pastrami is due to saltpetre (sodium nitrate). that reddish color we like in certain processed meats and sausages usually comes from saltpetre/saltpeter. Bacon processed without nitrates is usually a less appetizing brown.

[R Washburn]

Steve,

Isn't the stuff in Montreal called "smoked meat", and is therefore NOT pastrami? I think you have to let Levine off the hook on a technicality, since nobody in Montreal is laying claim to serving pastrami, let alone the worlds best.

[Fat Guy]

Everybody in Montreal makes the claim that their smoked meat is better than New York's pastrami. The reason they can try to make that claim is that smoked meat and pastrami are synonymous in that they encompass the same range of cured-and-smoked beef products. It's not like they're saying their smoked meat is better than our pizza. It's an on-point comparison. Go to Schwartz's and tell me they're not serving pastrami.

[R Washburn]

Go to Schwartz's and tell me they're not serving pastrami.

What if I go to Schwartz's and order a pastrami sandwich? Will they admit to serving pastrami?

[johnjohn]

I had to drive into the city today, and on the way home stopped at Ben's Best. I had a pastrami on rye, two pickles, coleslaw, French fries and a coke - the total was $14.61. I am in no way an expert on pastrami - so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

1. Best French fries that I have had in a long long time. Thick cut, crispy on the outside tender and fluffy inside

2. Pastrami sandwich was pretty good. The pastrami had a very nice flavor -lots of pepper and a saltiness to it, but I did not notice a smoky taste. It's appearance kind of threw me - It looked rubbery and didn't have that wet/shinny look that I have encountered in the past. It wasn't anywhere near juicy, but it wasn't dry. The bread was nothing special. The size was perfect - not that over the top, can't get your mouth around excess - I left stuffed, but not in an uncomfortable way.

3. Mustard was not as spicy as I would of liked when tasted alone, but on the sandwich it gave it a nice tang.

4. Really good coleslaw - not drowning in liquid. It was very thinly sliced - almost paper thin, which gave it a nice texture. It had a hint of sweetness to it, which I also liked.

5. Pickles were awful - one was very limp and salty - the other had no flavor.

6. Service was fast and polite (the waiter offered me his Daily News to read).

I live in Merrick, were Pastrami King opened a few months ago. I don't think it was mentioned in the NYT article, but it had a picture in the piece - I ate there once and thought it was very good - I remember the meat was very juicy.

johnjohn

[Fat Guy]

Go to Schwartz's and tell me they're not serving pastrami.

What if I go to Schwartz's and order a pastrami sandwich? Will they admit to serving pastrami?

No. They'll say that what's served in New York is just inferior smoked meat.

[SteveW]

I still haven't seen a response from the people in the know, with the question raised by Steven S following the article, asking if there're plenty of pastrami made from brisket(in addition to plate). Authentic Montreal smoked meat is made from brisket. Ed says that plate is fattier than brisket. Is this definitely true? I think I've heard it was the other way around.

Just as a curiosity, what year was the first pastrami sandwich served in NYC(Montreal smoked meat started in 1908)? It's mentioned by Ed, that Katz's opened its doors in 1888(don't know if they served pastrami back in 1888).

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Steve

Edited May 4, 2003 by SteveW (log)

[danger_doug]

JohnJohn: Did you stop at the Knish Nosh while you were there? It's good combo... No Yonah Shimmel's, but not bad.

[johnjohn]

JohnJohn: Did you stop at the Knish Nosh while you were there? It's good combo... No Yonah Shimmel's, but not bad.

No, I didn't stop at Knish Nosh. In the article he suggests that you stop at a bakery up the street for the best apple strudel in NYC. After lunch I walked 4 or 5 blocks and was about to give up when I came across a bakery. I walked in and said "I heard you have the best apple strudel in NYC -She said oh yes - i said I would like 2 pieces to go." Walked back to my car - had a bite - it was horrible - maybe the worst I have ever had. I read the article again and it mentioned the name of the bakery - Andre's. I started to drive home, and the next block after the bakery that I went to was Andre's. I only had $1 left, and didn't want to go to the cash machine - so I couldn't stop. At home I tossed the rest of the strudel.

johnjohn

[John]

I find it interesting, although not too surprising that only one deli actually makes their own pastrami. Especially since a lot of these places claim they make their own everything. Reminds me of Katz's claim awhile back that they made their own hot dogs. This is also not true. See the past posts about this subject. Places that do a lot of business simply do not have the time or money to make everything themselves. The article states that it is labor intensive and expensive. But that doesn't stop people from lying about it. Very funny that the two owners of Katz's contradict each other. I see this a lot with hot dog places, which I have been known to frequent. They lie about who makes their franks, where they are from, that they are made exclusively for them (although in some cases this is true) that their condiments are homemade, etc. Just yesterday I found out that the wonderful Dusseldorf style mustard at Rutt's Hut is not homemade. I was told by an owner that it is homemade, as well as reading it in various articles. A conterman was telling me that it is a commercial brand from Long Island. When one of the owners appeared, he stopped talking immediately; then refused to tell me the brand name when the owner was out of ear shot. The relish, however, is homemade.

[SteveW]

John in Montreal, many of Montreal smoked meat delis claim to make their own meat, but in reality only 3-4 make their own. Are they lying??? Their contention is that if it is made according to their specs for them, by a commercial smoke meat supplier, then they can call it their own product. I say they're lying.

Would you know, for the top NYC delis(as a general rule), if their pastrami is made according to their specs for them, by their commercial meat supplier or it's a straight off the shelf commercial product.

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Steve

[Fat Guy]

Would you know, for the top NYC delis(as a general rule), if their pastrami is made according to their specs for them, by their commercial meat supplier or it's a straight off the shelf commercial product.

It's extremely difficult to get reliable information from the delis or the suppliers, but we do know a couple of things and can draw some inferences: 1) Hebrew National is the major pastrami supplier in New York, and 2) It's not likely practical for a mass-production facility to do special batches for every deli using different secret spice mixtures etc.

[Suzanne F]

But Fat Guy, isn't it possible that some mass-production facility DOES do that, the way the F. X. Matt brewery is the source of all those "microbrews" under other names? Of course, to be honest, I'm not sure they're not all just the same beer under different names.

[Fat Guy]

The quantities are different orders of magnitude. A run of a microbrew beer could be thousands of cases. How much pastrami can a given individual deli get through in a day or a week? Although it's possible -- anything is possible -- it's not likely.

[SteveW]

Steven, there're not many major Jewish delis left in NYC(less than 10?). Isn't it likely at least one of the major pastrami suppliers, would have a special deal with a major NY deli or two, to make batches of pastrami customized for the deli?

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Steve

[Fat Guy]

More likely is the scenario that has all the customers of a given supplier using the same product. Of course, someone from ConAgra may be able to say "yes we make special batches for delis that request it," but I've never heard any pastrami producer make such a claim. Only the delis say it. It's just like with John's hot dog example. All these places say they have a special secred recipe hot dog "made for them" by a supplier, but they actually all just use the same hot dog because no supplier is going to stop the machinery, adjust everything, and make a different batch for one small customer.

[SteveW]

What about in Montreal for smoked meat. Several of the major delis that don't make their own smoked meat, when pressed say their smoked meat is made according to their specs by a smoked meat supplier. Steven, do you suspect all these delis are lying?

Steve

[Fat Guy]

It may be true. It may be false. What I'm saying is that the most likely scenario is that a commercial meat supplier is not going to run custom batches for individual clients. So my assumption is going to be that two customers of a given supplier are getting the same product, unless someone shows me data -- other than potentially self-serving statements of a deli-owner -- to confirm it. If I write a story about any given restaurant topic, I can be sure in advance that about half the information I get from restaurant people won't check out. So my default assumption is always not to believe assertions -- especially counterintuitive ones -- until they're backed up by independent sources.

[Steve Silkin]

Doesn't the article state that both Ben's and Katz's use the same supplier for pastami. Now I've tried both products and they are completely different. Katz is smokier less peppery more fatty and much much better.

[SteveW]

No Ed Levine didn't state that Ben's Best & Katz's had the same pastrami supplier. Ed couldn't get a straight answer, from the Katz's co-owners who made their pastrami. Ben's Best owner told him, that Empire National makes their pastrami.

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Steve

[SteveW]

It may be true. It may be false. What I'm saying is that the most likely scenario is that a commercial meat supplier is not going to run custom batches for individual clients. So my assumption is going to be that two customers of a given supplier are getting the same product, unless someone shows me data -- other than potentially self-serving statements of a deli-owner -- to confirm it. If I write a story about any given restaurant topic, I can be sure in advance that about half the information I get from restaurant people won't check out. So my default assumption is always not to believe assertions -- especially counterintuitive ones -- until they're backed up by independent sources.

Steven your assumption seems to be totally correct. I contacted a trusted Montreal smoked meat authority today, following your postings. He tells me, that for those delis that don't make their own Montreal smoked meat, but claim to have their smoked meat made for them by a commercial meat supplier according to their specs, are all talking bullshit!!! As you stated, each individual deli can't go through enough smoke meat(or pastrami), to make it worthwhile for a commercial supplier to do special batches.

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Steve

[Fat Guy]

I think it's also important to remember that the cured and smoked beef that comes in from a supplier is only part of the equation that results in the pastrami-on-rye sandwich served at a traditional Jewish deli. The manner in which the meat is steamed and sliced is also critical. In one report I read about Langer's in LA, I recall one of the owners stating that one of their big trademarks is that they steam the meat for about twice as long as the average deli. This is no doubt going to produce a more tender, almost-falling-apart product. Likewise, machine versus hand slicing is a huge issue and I'm not sure if in a blind tasting I wouldn't think a machine-sliced and hand-sliced sandwich from the same piece of meat weren't from two different recipes.

It's the same with hot dogs. What makes a hot dog at Papaya King so good isn't the hot dog. The dog alone is just a pretty good hot dog. But they cook it on the griddle low and slow so it develops a great crust and really cooks through -- almost nobody takes the time to do this at home with hot dogs. Then they serve it on a griddle-toasted bun (the difference this makes cannot be overstated) with excellent condiments.

In other words, if you give me a Hebrew National pastrami and I steam it for a good long time and slice it by hand and serve it on good rye with good mustard, and you give some other person the exact same piece of meat and he steams it only for a short time and slices it thin on a high-speed commercial deli slicer and serves it on crap supermarket bread with crap mustard, pretty much everybody will say that my pastrami is different (and better), when in fact it's the same and what people are reacting to are the post-processing steps I've taken.

[SteveW]

I hear you, concerning the importance of steaming the pastrami correctly. What caught my eye, in the Ed Levine write-up on pastrami, was the Ben's Best owner's comment that their deli steams the pastrami for up to 6 hours, before being trimmed & sliced. Now you say here, that there was write-up about Langer's in LA, stating that they steam their pastrami for about twice as long as the average deli. I asked my smoked meat contact yesterday, about the six hour figure, & he told me that it's ridiculous(2-3 hours the best for smoked meat). So proper steaming of pastrami, might need further investigating.

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Steve