A Restaurant Culture?

[viejo majadero]

There is something we are touching upon here that still is an enigma. My wife asked me to book a restaurant in the greater Union NJ area. That was Wednesday morning for a Saturday seating. Called Jocelyne's of Maplewood first. Their entire second seating was already booked. Best I could get was well before 6:00 for a first seating. Then called Le Rendez-vous in Kenilworth. Same thing. Second seating already booked. I took a 6:15 out by 8:30 seating. These types of restaurants (both BYO's if there is meaning to that) seem to be doing very well. When I left at 8:30PM there was only my table available and there were plenty of people que'd up to get in. Kenilworth is not high end affluent.. And both of these restaurants are 45 minute drives from my home.

As an aside, I think I may take Le rendez-vous off my top list. Dining experience there keeps getting progressively worse.

_______________________________

C/W Spencer Speaking if Rendezvous

Miss Charlie Vergos place. Need my slab once in a while.

Bought a jar of his dry rub. Poured it out on a sheet of wax paper.

Went through it picking out the herbs and spices I could recognize. Made my own version. Still tweaking it. Mine is a little hotter than theirs.

Viejo

[Rosie]

Discussion on Le Rendezvous is here:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST...l=le+rendezvous

[Kim WB]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread.  Well written and thought out commentary.  Rail  -  you made me laugh.

I live in Kinnelon.

As I have stated on this and other forums many times.  I live in "Culinary Hell!!!!" and there are few more affluent communities in New Jersey.  I still do not understand it.

At the gate to Smoke Rise there is a restaurant called Lotsa Pasta, it clearly represents my food dilemma.  They are putting up million dollar homes all around me and this is what I get to choose among.

Hell Hell Hell

I'm with ya compadre...ours is called Bolla Pasta...owned by the most affluent and well-respected Italian restaurant owning family in Memphis. And it too is located in the best part of town...and probably like your restaurant the mutherfucker flourishes...sheeps to slaughter...doesn't it taste nice......

I am of the opinion that there is a place in the restaurant hierarchy for a good, family pasta place..silly names aside. It does seem strange that a high end place cannot flourish as well in some of the communities you all have mentioned...I guess rents, LL, competition all come into play.

And sorry, I will never consider a BYO to be a high end place...great food, yes..but a high end place, to me, is a full service, full liquor license establishment that encompasses the entire dining experience. Where I can dine for three hours, apperatif to port...without bringing a mini cellar with me.

[Rail Paul]

And sorry, I will never consider a BYO to be a high end place...great food, yes..but a high end place, to me,  is a full service, full liquor license establishment that encompasses the entire dining experience.  Where I can dine for three hours, apperatif to port...without bringing a mini cellar with me.

Although I rarely find myself in disagreement with you, Kim, here's one.

I think Scalini Fedeli in Chatham was an exceptionally fine place prior to the license, just as Il Mondo Vecchio still is. It's exceptionally difficult to win without wine and liquers, but the combination of a well stocked personal cellar and an advance peek at the menu / special offerings might do the trick.

[viejo majadero]

Well, if I had to define high end I would have have to say it had nothing to do with quality of food, service, or whether it had a liquor license.

It would only be the per capita cost on my bill. Having to define the cut off is more difficult. Perhaps about $45.00 per person approaches high end.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

Discussion on Le Rendezvous is here:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST...l=le+rendezvous

he's talking about the rendezvous bbq place in memphis rosie.

[viejo majadero]

C/W Spenser

Actually was writing about both.

Viejo

[Rosie]

Jocelyne's comes to mind as a BYO, high end restaurant.

High end to me is $60 up without liquor.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread.  Well written and thought out commentary.  Rail  -  you made me laugh.

I live in Kinnelon.

As I have stated on this and other forums many times.  I live in "Culinary Hell!!!!" and there are few more affluent communities in New Jersey.  I still do not understand it.

At the gate to Smoke Rise there is a restaurant called Lotsa Pasta, it clearly represents my food dilemma.  They are putting up million dollar homes all around me and this is what I get to choose among.

Hell Hell Hell

I'm with ya compadre...ours is called Bolla Pasta...owned by the most affluent and well-respected Italian restaurant owning family in Memphis. And it too is located in the best part of town...and probably like your restaurant the mutherfucker flourishes...sheeps to slaughter...doesn't it taste nice......

I am of the opinion that there is a place in the restaurant hierarchy for a good, family pasta place..silly names aside. It does seem strange that a high end place cannot flourish as well in some of the communities you all have mentioned...I guess rents, LL, competition all come into play.

And sorry, I will never consider a BYO to be a high end place...great food, yes..but a high end place, to me, is a full service, full liquor license establishment that encompasses the entire dining experience. Where I can dine for three hours, apperatif to port...without bringing a mini cellar with me.

Sometimes Byob in a high end restaurant is a welcome thing. If you know the wine list and you don't see anything you like you're free to bring your own bottle that you think would match the food better. It really has nothing to do with liquor licenses and/or the ability to get one and maintain it.

[Rosie]

In NJ there are many BYO's and it is illegal to charge a corkage fee. The restaurants that have a liquor license can and do charge a corkage fee. However, lately some restaurants with a liquor license have a BYO night where they don't charge a fee. Andre's in Newton and now Stage House Inn are doing this.

[Kim WB]

And sorry, I will never consider a BYO to be a high end place...great food, yes..but a high end place, to me,  is a full service, full liquor license establishment that encompasses the entire dining experience.  Where I can dine for three hours, apperatif to port...without bringing a mini cellar with me.

Although I rarely find myself in disagreement with you, Kim, here's one.

I think Scalini Fedeli in Chatham was an exceptionally fine place prior to the license, just as Il Mondo Vecchio still is. It's exceptionally difficult to win without wine and liquers, but the combination of a well stocked personal cellar and an advance peek at the menu / special offerings might do the trick.

I know this was going to bring out all you BYO defenders! ( my smileys don't work, insert one here! LOL) I know I am a minority on this board about BYO's...and I know there are some wonderful ones, even some expensive ones, but no one will convince me that they can be considered a high end ( to me this means serious about food, service, wines, atmosphere, not price) dining expereince. And again, I respect how much you all like them, I've enjoyed a few as well, but high end to me means "special", and shlepping wines and ports and mini bottles of gran marnier is not high end anything! LOL!

SCalini is on my list to visit, now that they have the LL, but talk about a shlep! ( insert smirky face here! )

I have two or three BYO's that I go to frequently, so I'm not saying there is not a place for them...indeed, a valid, valuable place...but not as part of what I consider high end dining. IMHO, of course!

[viejo majadero]

Kim

By your definition of high end "( to me this means serious about food, service, wines, atmosphere, not price) " , could you list for me 10 places in New Jersey that you feel fits that description?

[menton1]

BYOB restaurants proliferate in New Jersey because of the State liquor laws, not because of the restaurant's choice. Restaurants love to sell wine, it greatly increases the profit. But in NJ, there are only so many licenses per municipality, and that's it. The result is that the licenses are hoarded, and can cost upwards of 100K to purchase.

The result to the consumer is a friendly one, he or she can save a lot of money by buying at the wine shop; I think most of us can "schlep" a 1 pound bottle of wine to better spend the $$ on a better restaurant!! The people preparing and serving the food are unaffected by whether the restaurant sells wine or not.

The savings of money by diners in NJ actually allows us to step UP in restuarant choices, not down.

[RockADS21]

By your definition of high end "( to me this means serious about food, service, wines, atmosphere, not price) " , could you list for me 10 places in New Jersey that you feel fits that description?

I will...in no particulair order but what I would consider high end in terms of restaurant quality that can rival any in NYC...

- Scalini Fedeli

- Serenade

- The Ryland Inn

- The Stage House Inn

- Il Capriccio

- The Bernards Inn

- Highlawn Pavillion

- Restaurant Nicholas

- The Frog and The Peach

- Il Tulipano

I mean no offense at all to those that I have not listed but these were the first ten that I thought of and with the exception of Nicholas, just ones that I have frequented...

Edited April 29, 2003 by RockADS21 (log)

[RockADS21]

I apologize if I stole any of your thunder here Kim...

[viejo majadero]

Rock

So are you agreeing that high end excludes restaurants with no wine list?

[RockADS21]

Rock

So are you agreeing that high end excludes restaurants with no wine list?

I tend to say yes although I would hesitate to limit what I would consider to be high end in terms of quality just because a place is BYO. One of my very favorite restaurants in NJ - Cafe Abbraci in Metuchen is a BYO and I visit there normally at least once a month and would consider them top notch quality but probably wouldn't ever describe the place as high end. I think quality of food, presentation, service and atmosphere are still the most important features in judging an establishment. However I agree with Kim that the overall aura of "high end" for what I tend to think of as "special occassion restaurants" (some I which I have listed in my previous post) is somewhat absent when one needs to bring in a bottle or bottles. I will also always wait until after I have made my choice of food before ordering wine in order to pair the wine of choice with my/our meals(I am far from an expert in this area but I do enjoy it) - an aspect of dining which becomes limited when you need to bring your own.

[dck57]

You have all hit on a dilemma that drives my wife and I nuts. We live in western Bergen County - and in an area with SO much money - why are there no great restaurants - at the high or low end? Am I missing something? We've tried em all it seems!! Don't even get me started on Ridgewood. And the ones that are good decide that bigger/fancier is better - which it's not (i.e. Arturo's and Chez Madeleine). I don't want Jersey-fancy. I want great food and professional service in a not-boring atmosphere. Sounds like...Zoe - or Blue Water Grill -- or Patria -- or Gramercy or Balthazar or Union Square --- ah lets just go into Manhattan..........again.

If you have ever been to a NNJ restaurant that even approaches these ------ please Help! Only ones I've ever found were Esty Street and Restaurant X all the way up un Congers NY.

Thanks for letting me vent.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

You have all hit on a dilemma that drives my wife and I nuts. We live in western Bergen County - and  in an area with SO much money - why are there no great restaurants - at the high or low end? Am I missing something? We've tried em all it seems!! Don't even get me started on Ridgewood. And the ones that are good decide that bigger/fancier is better - which it's not (i.e. Arturo's and Chez Madeleine). I don't want Jersey-fancy. I want great food and professional service in a not-boring atmosphere. Sounds like...Zoe - or Blue Water Grill -- or Patria -- or Gramercy or Balthazar or Union Square --- ah lets just go into Manhattan..........again.

If you have ever been to a NNJ restaurant that even approaches these ------ please Help! Only ones I've ever found were Esty Street and Restaurant X all the way up un Congers NY.

Thanks for letting me vent.

It's about homogenization in the suburbs. The plain fact is that the chains are safe, familiar, and moderately priced. Again, you'd think that people with more money would eat better and at better establishments. But that's not necessarily the case...not by a long shot. When restaurateurs sit down and try to figure out what demographic their pandering to ultimately the suburbs get the TGI Friday's gloss over. Opening a gastronomic temple in a rich part of town, while seeming like a 2+2 thing to do, is a risky venture. As a rule, unless you're in South Beach, NYC or somewhere cool like that, you're going to fare better with boring and familiar food in the better parts of town. Sure, you can all probably state examples that break this pattern--I can name a few myself--, but as a generality restaurateurs want to make money. How do you make money? Know your demographics.

Remember, it's always the guy with the Amex Platinum Card and new Jag in the parking lot that tips 10 percent on perfect service and the best meal of his life.

Edited April 29, 2003 by Chef/Writer Spencer (log)

[menton1]

I just can't accept that a wine list can affect the performance in the kitchen or of the wait staff. These restaurants would love to sell wine, but in NJ a liquor license is either unavailable or prohibitively expensive. Chains like Fridays, Houlihans, Applebees can get the licenses because they have the capital to finance them.

I do think that Epernay in Montclair and Jocelynes in Maplewood are in a high end echelon of restaurants, and they are BYOB. Of course in NYC the restaurants are more sophisticated. It's true the burbs play more to the predictable chains. Very few museums or international movies out here as well.

I still say that the savings accrued by BYOB lets you step up and go to a better restaurant because of it.

[Rail Paul]

I still say that the savings accrued by  BYOB lets you step up and go to a better restaurant because of it.

Maybe it's a subjective thing, but I'd rather bring my own bottle of 20 year old Burgundy for which I paid $30 in 1988, than pay the restaurant $150 for their bottle. I know how my bottle was treated, don't have a clue on their bottle.

(Is it my imagination, or am I channelling Steve Plotnicki?)

[menton1]

I still say that the savings accrued by  BYOB lets you step up and go to a better restaurant because of it.

Maybe it's a subjective thing, but I'd rather bring my own bottle of 20 year old Burgundy for which I paid $30 in 1988, than pay the restaurant $150 for their bottle. I know how my bottle was treated, don't have a clue on their bottle.

(Is it my imagination, or am I channelling Steve Plotnicki?)

Hear, hear. And with that savings you might, instead of choosing a place with food costs about $40PP, you opt for a better place for about $60PP. Long live BYOBs and bureaucracy!!

[Rosie]

dck57--Not sure of which towns are in "western Bergen County" but try Zoe's By The Lake in Sparta. They have a liquor license.

[viejo majadero]

Rock you said,

"QUOTE

Rock

So are you agreeing that high end excludes restaurants with no wine list?

I tend to say yes although I would hesitate to limit what I would consider to be high end in terms of quality just because a place is BYO. One of my very favorite restaurants in NJ - Cafe Abbraci in Metuchen is a BYO and I visit there normally at least once a month and would consider them top notch quality but probably wouldn't ever describe the place as high end. I think quality of food, presentation, service and atmosphere are still the most important features in judging an establishment. However I agree with Kim that the overall aura of "high end" for what I tend to think of as "special occassion restaurants" (some I which I have listed in my previous post) is somewhat absent when one needs to bring in a bottle or bottles. I will also always wait until after I have made my choice of food before ordering wine in order to pair the wine of choice with my/our meals(I am far from an expert in this area but I do enjoy it) - an aspect of dining which becomes limited when you need to bring your own."

________________________

So based on what you noted above, Scalini Fedeli which was on your quick top ten, became "high end" when it got a liquor license?

[Kim WB]

I don't htink there are ten "high end" restaurants in NJ..by my personal definition only. There are certainly 10 restaruants with "excellent" food...but not the whole package...

However,

RN, Ryland, Rats, Stage Left, Stage House Inn, perhaps Wash Inn in Cape May...that's my list.

I love, for example, Hamilton Grill Room in Lambertville..great food, great atmosphere, but a little too casual ( even though its not casual, if that makes sense) and no LL...but I just don't htink of it as a high end dining experience. I'm comparing these to Gramercy, Trotter's, Auereole, Le Bec Fin, Striped Bass..a few places that I think of as high end.

Just my opinion, to reiterate!