A Restaurant Culture?

[Rail Paul]

What makes a town or area good for higher end restaurants? Why are places like Montclair and Hoboken brimming with good places, and Jersey City, Morristown, Ridgewood or Red Bank grasping for even a few?

I'll offer a hypothesis. Everybody's busy during the weekend, the weekday evening may be the tipping point to profitability.

Neighbors matter. A large corporate office presence will generate sales calls, lunches out, etc. There's no way Madison and Chatham justify the number of places they have absent the lunch trade.

Affluence matters. People have to be willing to drop $50 a head.

Access matters, a lot, people don't want to go out if they've just commuted 90 minutes.

Apartment matters. Homeowners are more likely to cook / entertain at home, all else being equal.

A Commute matters. Several chefs with whom I've spoken prefer the suburban lifestyle, especially if they have families. NYC will often keep you in the shop until 10 or 11 pm. It's rare that a NJ restaurant delivers a meal past 9 pm during the week. You're home by 10 pm, not 1 am

Movies, etc matter. Montclair is a walking town. From Luna Stage down to Indigo Smoke is about a mile, or fifteen minutes walk. Two live theaters, three movies (13 screens), and prob 25 restaurants. Another 3-4 over on Walnut, along with two artisan bakers.

Edited April 28, 2003 by Rail Paul (log)

[Fat Guy]

Neighbors matter.

Neighbors also matter for reasons of critical mass. Once a few restaurants are established in an area, it becomes easier for subsequent efforts to attract customers and attention. One of the reasons there are clusters is that there are clusters!

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

When restaurants that are typically busy slow down for no apparent reason it's not uncommon to find waiters and cooks alike huddled around trying to come up with THE answer. "Everybody must have gone on vacation all at once." "School's back in session, parents spent all their money on school supplies." "Tax time." I believe that there's a collective unconscious that dictates the ebb and flow of the frequency of patronnage. A Murphy's Law, an unspoken shift.

When restaurants located in under populated, poor or unsustainable locations are busy upon first opening, then, like the wind, die down and turn into Titanics, the reasons are a little more clear cut. Either the owners are shitty at PR, the food sucks or they've grossly miscalculated their abilities to turn chain restaurant junkies on to the Greek sushi idea they thought would pack the place in.

I worked for a big time restaurateur who, when his first restaurant went "double platinum" thought it would be the next logical thing to open up a brasserie with his highly recognizable initials on it in a strip mall in an affluent part of town. He and his partners, while scouting locales, sat down in the abandoned Bagel Bar, looked out at the throngs passing by on the main thoroughfare and decried, "We're gonna make a mint." Unfortunately for them, they didn't realize that the folks that lived is this rich area were more into the burger and chain joints that were acned all around their spot. Those places packed, his place has now got a sign on it saying, "Sekisui sushi, opening soon."

Then you've got the recession, which has been an utter death knell for restaurants country wide.

I could go more in depth but reading Bourdain's "Owner's Syndrome and Other Medical Anomolies will suffice.

Edited April 28, 2003 by Chef/Writer Spencer (log)

[Rosie]

How would you explain the success of Restaurant Nicholas on Rt 35 in Middletown. I have bias against restaurants on highways but he is very busy and very expensive. Others that come to mind are Ryland Inn which is in the middle of nowhere; Amanda's in Hoboken a city where it is extremely difficult to park; and Rat's which is a schlep. All successful.

[=Mark]

Beyond a certain level of service, style and cooking expertise restaurants can elevate themselves to a destination in of themselves. They will appeal to a level of dining that goes beyond being just a place to eat prior to doing something else.

Rich and I made a round trip from DC to Inn at Little Washington several years ago. The Cheese course with glasses of port served out on the patio by the fountain on a late spring evening alone would have been worth the 60 mile (One way) trip.

[Kim WB]

I'd like to also add, to Paul's list, that affluence, as defined by disposable income, matters. I am not sure that the general public realizes how many of these McMansions don't have living room furniture, and people are so cash-poor after their mortgage payment, that there is not a lot left for dining out. 50% of my closings in the Princeton area are for couples with young kids, who figure they will "grow" into the mortgage, often one income, they want the schools, the new construction, the nice car..but it doesn't leave a lot at the end of every month.

I'd also like to add the impact of specific ethnic communities to an area. There are a number of towns in the Southern Middlesex, Mercer County area of Central NJ that are 33% Asian and Indian. These new residents tend to cook at home more, and dine out less. There are often mutli-generational families, and food preperation is always fresh...if a dual income family can come home to a home cooked healthy meal, specified to their preferred taste and diatary restrictions, then the need to dine out is reduced.

Finally, the people I know have so little down time, and people with kids feel guilty if they hire a babysitter after not really having time with their kids all week. And despite what many restaurants say, and the vocal group that always proclaim that their children have been fine dining since age 2, the truth is chain restaurants are kid friendly, and a Red Bank Brassaire is not.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

How would you explain the success of Restaurant Nicholas on Rt 35 in Middletown. I have  bias against restaurants on highways but he is very busy and very expensive. Others that come to mind are Ryland Inn which is in the middle of nowhere; Amanda's in Hoboken a city where it is extremely difficult to park; and Rat's which is a schlep. All successful.

Wonderful anomolies. PR giants, good food, an ability to translate high end stuff in terms that the less than savvy can appreciate. Honesty, good service, word of mouth. the ability to make nervous diners feel welcomed. good pricepoints. a combination of all. you'd be surprised how many restaurateurs think they can get by on a name and better than average food.

[Rosie]

"I'd also like to add the impact of specific ethnic communities to an area. There are a number of towns in the Southern Middlesex, Mercer County area of Central NJ that are 33% Asian and Indian. These new residents tend to cook at home more, and dine out less. "

Kim--If you walk down Green Street in Iselin you will find at least 3 Indian restaurants on each block. The place is bustling.

[Kim WB]

How would you explain the success of Restaurant Nicholas on Rt 35 in Middletown. I have  bias against restaurants on highways but he is very busy and very expensive. Others that come to mind are Ryland Inn which is in the middle of nowhere; Amanda's in Hoboken a city where it is extremely difficult to park; and Rat's which is a schlep. All successful.

Ryland Inn is located in the county with the single biggest residential growth in NJ...over 8000 new homes within the last 24 months, , average asking price 440k.

Rat's is located in the 4th largest municipality in the state, Hamilton Township, so while it is a shlep for N. Jersey folks, it is easily accessible to a densly packed area...295 is the most heavily travelled interstate, if I recall from something I read but I might be wrong.

Amanda's is also in a densly populated area, but the dense population is in walking distance, so the parking issue is only relevant to some.

Out of Rosie's list, RN seems to be succeeding despite its location...neither densly populated, nor is it in a pretty area that can be considered "destination dining"...like the Sculpture Gardens at Rats or the "Inn" feeling at Ryland.

But, I second Rosie's bias of restaurants on Highways.

[Fat Guy]

How would you explain the success of Restaurant Nicholas on Rt 35 in Middletown. I have  bias against restaurants on highways but he is very busy and very expensive. Others that come to mind are Ryland Inn which is in the middle of nowhere; Amanda's in Hoboken a city where it is extremely difficult to park; and Rat's which is a schlep. All successful.

Wonderful anomolies. PR giants, good food, an ability to translate high end stuff in terms that the less than savvy can appreciate. Honesty, good service, word of mouth. the ability to make nervous diners feel welcomed. good pricepoints. a combination of all. you'd be surprised how many restaurateurs think they can get by on a name and better than average food.

Talent matters, as do the ability and willingness of an audience to appreciate talent.

[Kim WB]

Kim--If you walk down Green Street in Iselin you will find at least 3 Indian restaurants on each block. The place is bustling.

Yes, its wonderful that a heavy population of groups brings such great, authenitc restaurnts to an area...but Rail Paul was wondering about high end places, and while the Iselin restaurants are succeeding, I don't see their clientle as the same market who might take Route 9 over to 35 and visit RN.

[=Mark]

Down on the west side of Red Bank there is a growing community of Mexican Americans. There are 3 or 4 Mexican restaurants off of Monmouth Street, one of which (La Chalupa) caters to the mexican community that staffs most of the kitchens of the rest of the local restaurants. It is the furthest from the typical melted cheese and ranchero sauce bloated dishes one most expects in your standard Tex Mex type places.

The food is good, fresh and cheap, the atmosphere consists of buzzing neon signs, posters of upcoming hispanic events and a contest between the Mexican pop songs on the juke box in one corner and the Spanish Language TV in the other.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

How would you explain the success of Restaurant Nicholas on Rt 35 in Middletown. I have  bias against restaurants on highways but he is very busy and very expensive. Others that come to mind are Ryland Inn which is in the middle of nowhere; Amanda's in Hoboken a city where it is extremely difficult to park; and Rat's which is a schlep. All successful.

Wonderful anomolies. PR giants, good food, an ability to translate high end stuff in terms that the less than savvy can appreciate. Honesty, good service, word of mouth. the ability to make nervous diners feel welcomed. good pricepoints. a combination of all. you'd be surprised how many restaurateurs think they can get by on a name and better than average food.

Talent matters, as do the ability and willingness of an audience to appreciate talent.

I agree to a certain extent. Without a doubt if the chef ain't on then the carion swoon eventually but I know a few mega talented chefs that haven't been properly PRed and are now painting houses. Talent isn't a sure fire means to packing a restaurant. Remember the chef from Northern Exposure..the angry guy, who freaked out when one of his prep guys (the big indian) used bacon instead of pancetta. Adam Arkin's character. With that guys talent he should have been commanding CIA grads at a Ritz Carlton but instead he was pumping out French classics in a diner.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

How would you explain the success of Restaurant Nicholas on Rt 35 in Middletown. I have  bias against restaurants on highways but he is very busy and very expensive. Others that come to mind are Ryland Inn which is in the middle of nowhere; Amanda's in Hoboken a city where it is extremely difficult to park; and Rat's which is a schlep. All successful.

Ryland Inn is located in the county with the single biggest residential growth in NJ...over 8000 new homes within the last 24 months, , average asking price 440k.

Rat's is located in the 4th largest municipality in the state, Hamilton Township, so while it is a shlep for N. Jersey folks, it is easily accessible to a densly packed area...295 is the most heavily travelled interstate, if I recall from something I read but I might be wrong.

Amanda's is also in a densly populated area, but the dense population is in walking distance, so the parking issue is only relevant to some.

Out of Rosie's list, RN seems to be succeeding despite its location...neither densly populated, nor is it in a pretty area that can be considered "destination dining"...like the Sculpture Gardens at Rats or the "Inn" feeling at Ryland.

But, I second Rosie's bias of restaurants on Highways.

as stated before, financial wealth does not insure that these people will frequent higher end restaurants....look at my example above.

[Rail Paul]

Maybe an answer is there's no ONE answer. Depending on the combination of affluence, commute, cluster, other attractions a restaurant may succeeed if it commands a key need.

I'm thinking about the restaurants right outside Red Bank (Fromagerie, Nicholas, etc)., and within ten minutes (cluster in Atlantic / Highlands). My sense is a very solid study of the local market is necessary to determine whether your lunch trade, your weekend or your weeknight trade drives your profit points. Pierre's (202 south of Morristown, adjacent to one of the highest per capita neighborhoods in the US) struggled for years even though they had wonderful cooking, good service, and extensive parking. They're doing fine, now.

I've gotta agree on Hoboken, though. Parking is difficult, and that's a solid deterrent to going there.

[Rosie]

"I've gotta agree on Hoboken, though. Parking is difficult, and that's a solid deterrent to going there."

But I do go there although the parking is horrendous. I overlook the inconvenience to dine at The Dining Room at Anthony David's and Amanda's. Amanda's has a deal with the parking lot on Frank Sinatra drive but it is a schlep in bad weather.

[Kim WB]

as stated before, financial wealth does not insure that these people will frequent higher end restaurants....look at my example above.

Well, its not the SOLE reason a high end restaurant might make it or break it, but if you are looking to develop a place with a high end wine list, and upscale price points, let's agree that it makes sense to put it in an area where there is sufficient disposable income to support it. Yes, lots of other variables..but it seems to me, if this one variable is not in place, you're taking off from behind the starting line.

[Rosie]

It seems to me that many high end restaurants are not supported by their community but are destination places. For ex. Ryland Inn, Nicholas and Rat's.

[Kim WB]

It seems to me that many high end restaurants are not supported by their community but are destination places. For ex. Ryland Inn,  Nicholas and Rat's.

I'm sorry, but I suspect that you might not be as aware of the surrounding areas of at least two of thsoe places. I went on my Realtor software, just to be sure I wasn't inventing stuff.....the average sale price of a home within 10 miles from Whitehouse, NJ, is 645k. Perhaps you only see the Ryland Inn, but just a hop skip and a jump away are extensive housing developments. And there have always been pharmaceutical companies ther with a strong lunch demand. Most likely, you go to Rat's via 295, through the industrial center of Hamilton by the train station...but take 295 to 195, and within 10 minutes you're in Hopewell township, where the newest development starts at 790k without upgrades...I know I'm using housing prices too much, but that's my point of reference...I stand by my theory that the 20mile radius population supports the restaurant, and the "destination diners" are cream on the coffee, so to say. I certainly agree that the places you mentions ARE destination places, just not that it is this clientele that supports them. ALSO, I then reiterate my origianl post, which is that even thought the folks in these homes have money, they don't necessarily have disposable income. My smileys do not work. or I would add one. Neither does my bold or underline, not sure what happened, on day they worked, next they did not.

Edited April 28, 2003 by Kim WB (log)

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

As a guy who has worked in both high end successful restaurants and high end unsuccessful restaurants that should have gone all the way...location is important, very important, maybe 64.56 percent of why closer to your audience is better. But, press and word of mouth is ultimately (if the restaurant that is off the beaten track can hold on until its merit is verified city wide) more important. A good press agent can make a TGI Friday's sound like Taillevant. Word on the street is the best way to sustain a good restaurant, next to press and marketing. That's just the way it is.

[Rosie]

Kim--The Ryland Inn doesn't serve lunch anymore and he has recently started to serve a lower price bistro menu in the bar area on weekdays.

Also, in West Orange the new townhouses are 6-7 hundred thousand and there are no high end restaurants here.

[Rail Paul]

Also, in West Orange the new townhouses are 6-7 hundred thousand and there are no high end restaurants here.

At the risk of provoking viejo how about the Manor and Highlawn Pavilion? Both are in West Orange

[Kim WB]

Kim--The Ryland Inn doesn't serve lunch anymore and he has recently started to serve a lower price bistro menu in the bar area on weekdays.

Also, in West Orange the new townhouses are 6-7 hundred thousand and there are no high end restaurants here.

Do you think there is a market for a high end restaurnat? I don't know N Jersey Real estate, but if a family/couple/individual has the resources to buy a 600k townhouse, plus maintenance, I would look to feed them!! ( Man, that's a lot of cash for not owning property! Gotta love NJ!!..Are the schools good? Sorry, the realtor in me coming out! LOL!)

What I'm saying is that the highest end restaurants in the state, agreing with the RN, Rats, Ryland list..are near affluent areas of the state. And if you are looking to have a thriving business of that kind of plae, you should try to locate it near where the $$$ is.

Regarding the bistro: I wonder if these more casual bistro type prices are mostly a reaction to the general national economy, and to providing a casual atmosphere, as much as being a result of a specific location..don't know. Seems strange that Ryland would skip lunch...all those Pharmaceutical companies up there, and that is one industry that is still doing well, I think???

Edited April 28, 2003 by Kim WB (log)

[viejo majadero]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. Well written and thought out commentary. Rail - you made me laugh.

I live in Kinnelon.

As I have stated on this and other forums many times. I live in "Culinary Hell!!!!" and there are few more affluent communities in New Jersey. I still do not understand it.

At the gate to Smoke Rise there is a restaurant called Lotsa Pasta, it clearly represents my food dilemma. They are putting up million dollar homes all around me and this is what I get to choose among.

Hell Hell Hell

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread.  Well written and thought out commentary.  Rail  -  you made me laugh.

I live in Kinnelon.

As I have stated on this and other forums many times.  I live in "Culinary Hell!!!!" and there are few more affluent communities in New Jersey.  I still do not understand it.

At the gate to Smoke Rise there is a restaurant called Lotsa Pasta, it clearly represents my food dilemma.  They are putting up million dollar homes all around me and this is what I get to choose among.

Hell Hell Hell

I'm with ya compadre...ours is called Bolla Pasta...owned by the most affluent and well-respected Italian restaurant owning family in Memphis. And it too is located in the best part of town...and probably like your restaurant the mutherfucker flourishes...sheeps to slaughter...doesn't it taste nice......