The BEST Wine in the World

[Craig Camp]

It has been almost thirty years since I started to take wine seriously. When I started the best wines in the world were French and that meant just Bordeaux and Burgundy. The world was divided into just two camps - you either thought Burgundy or Bordeaux was the greatest. In those days the Rhone was considered only a sideshow.

Today everything is different and France no longer holds the undisputed wine heavyweight crown. Italy has exploded with quality. The classics from Piemonte and the finest Tuscan wines have no trouble in a battle with Bordeaux and Burgundy and the now included wines of the Rhone are equaled by wines produced from varietals like nero d'avola, negro amaro, refosco and aglianico. California, Spain and Australia have now more than proved their potential to produce wines at the highest quality levels and South Africa, New Zealand and Argentina are not far behind. The Germans, Austrians and now the Canadians are handling the dessert wine segment of the industry just fine.

There is a lot of competition out there and France seems to be in a difficult position. While Burgundy has maintained its identity while improving its wines, sales in Bordeaux seem to be suffering. Perhaps this is because after twenty years of following the style dictates of Robert Parker the great wines of Bordeaux have lost some of their individual personality.

The French made many deposits into their reputation "bank" over the centuries, but it seems now they are only making withdrawals. It would seem there are hard times ahead for the French wine industry.

[vengroff]

I can't claim the level of expertise that many here have about the "best" wines. However, I do consume a fair number of bottles in the $20 retail range. I would say that less than 10% of what I drink is French, and that has nothing to do with any recent boycotts.

Spanish Riojas, Australian Cabs and Syrahs, Oregon Pinots, and lately even Argentine Malbecs figure far more prominently in my consumption that anything French does. For most people who buy in the market segment I do, I think the war is over and France has lost.

I may very well be mistaken, but I thought that at the top end Bordeaux was still attracting the most attention and highest prices at auctions and high-end retailers.

[Craig Camp]

I may very well be mistaken, but I thought that at the top end Bordeaux was still attracting the most attention and highest prices at auctions and high-end retailers.

The very top wines of every important region always sell, but represent a tiny fraction of total production. Even just at the Cru Classe level there is not a big problem to sell 1st growths but 4th and 5th growths are another problem.

The auction market is a market unto itself and separate from normal trade channels. The actual number of estates that are actively and successfully traded on the auction market are few. Every year new estates enter the status of a wine that is collectible and hence a potential auction wine. These new estates are no longer exclusively French. Auctions do not help sales of the estates because they have already sold these wines.

Edited April 18, 2003 by Craig Camp (log)

[GordonCooks]

QUOTE]

The auction market is a market unto itself and separate from normal trade channels. The actually number of estates that are actively and successfully traded on the auction market are few. Every year new estates enter the status of a wine that is collectible and hence a potential auction wine. These new estates are no longer exclusively French. Auctions do not help sales of the estates because they have already sold these wines.

I would offer that a sold wine at auction that brings a premium price - promotes speculation and increases the winemaker's profile expotentially.

edit:spelling

Edited April 18, 2003 by GordonCooks (log)

[Craig Camp]

QUOTE]

The auction market is a market unto itself and separate from normal trade channels. The actually number of estates that are actively and successfully traded on the auction market are few. Every year new estates enter the status of a wine that is collectible and hence a potential auction wine. These new estates are no longer exclusively French. Auctions do not help sales of the estates because they have already sold these wines.

I would offer that a sold wine at auction that brings a premium price - promotes speculation ANSI increases the winemaker's profile expotentially.

Auction buyers do not experiment. You don't build your reputation on the auction market. Auction buyers are only buying from producers with already established reputations and then only buy wines from the best years.

["T"]

Personally, I love Italian wines, Brunello, Chianti Classico well made S Tuscans but right now I'm all about Burgundy. The subtle complexities and depth of the wines from Vosne Romanee send my palate in so many directions I don't know how to start writing notes. Although, I am sure once I start shopping I'll fall of the Grand Cru, Premier Cru bandwagon and crawl apoligetically back to Tuscany.

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

QUOTE]

The auction market is a market unto itself and separate from normal trade channels. The actually number of estates that are actively and successfully traded on the auction market are few. Every year new estates enter the status of a wine that is collectible and hence a potential auction wine. These new estates are no longer exclusively French. Auctions do not help sales of the estates because they have already sold these wines.

I would offer that a sold wine at auction that brings a premium price - promotes speculation ANSI increases the winemaker's profile expotentially.

Auction buyers do not experiment. You don't build your reputation on the auction market. Auction buyers are only buying from producers with already established reputations and then only buy wines from the best years.

Craig -- I have to take issue with you there.

Some of the garage wines go for big bucks at auction even though they have no track record. There has to be a lot of speculation in that.

The original Bordeaux garage wine, Ch. Le Pin, didn't sell for any special price until one collector in Singapore started bidding the price up, and now everyone wants it because it has become one of the world's most expensive wines. Meanwhile, Vieux Ch. Certan, owned by the same family as Le Pin and, IMO, a markedly superior wine, sells at relatively pedestrian levels compared to Le Pin. Why? Well, it is a somewhat larger property, but the real reason is that it hasn't created a splash with big auction tags.

Here in California, there is a well-known pattern for getting your new wine that has not even had its first release into the very expensive category. Part of that formula includes offering your wine at the Napa Wine Auction and having your friends bid it up to ridiculous prices.

Best regards,

Claude Kolm

The Fine Wine Review

[Craig Camp]

QUOTE]

The auction market is a market unto itself and separate from normal trade channels. The actually number of estates that are actively and successfully traded on the auction market are few. Every year new estates enter the status of a wine that is collectible and hence a potential auction wine. These new estates are no longer exclusively French. Auctions do not help sales of the estates because they have already sold these wines.

I would offer that a sold wine at auction that brings a premium price - promotes speculation ANSI increases the winemaker's profile expotentially.

Auction buyers do not experiment. You don't build your reputation on the auction market. Auction buyers are only buying from producers with already established reputations and then only buy wines from the best years.

Craig -- I have to take issue with you there.

Some of the garage wines go for big bucks at auction even though they have no track record. There has to be a lot of speculation in that.

The original Bordeaux garage wine, Ch. Le Pin, didn't sell for any special price until one collector in Singapore started bidding the price up, and now everyone wants it because it has become one of the world's most expensive wines. Meanwhile, Vieux Ch. Certan, owned by the same family as Le Pin and, IMO, a markedly superior wine, sells at relatively pedestrian levels compared to Le Pin. Why? Well, it is a somewhat larger property, but the real reason is that it hasn't created a splash with big auction tags.

Here in California, there is a well-known pattern for getting your new wine that has not even had its first release into the very expensive category. Part of that formula includes offering your wine at the Napa Wine Auction and having your friends bid it up to ridiculous prices.

Best regards,

Claude Kolm

The Fine Wine Review

Claude - don't the garage wines go for the big bucks only after they are annointed super points by Parker? Also I would not include charity auctions like Napa as normal auctions.

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

Craig -- Even if the garage wines only went for big bucks after Parker gives them a write-up, they still have no track record, and therefore no established reputation. Purchasing them at high price at auction or whereever for resale is a gamble, not based on historical record of how the wines develop, that some years down the road someone will want to pay more. I'd call that speculation.

Best regards,

Claude Kolm

The Fine Wine Review

Edited April 18, 2003 by Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review (log)

[GordonCooks]

I would offer that a sold wine at auction that brings a premium price - promotes speculation ANSI increases the winemaker's profile expotentially.

Auction buyers do not experiment. You don't build your reputation on the auction market. Auction buyers are only buying from producers with already established reputations and then only buy wines from the best years.

[Craig Camp]

I would offer that a sold wine at auction that brings a premium price - promotes speculation ANSI increases the winemaker's profile expotentially.

Auction buyers do not experiment. You don't build your reputation on the auction market. Auction buyers are only buying from producers with already established reputations and then only buy wines from the best years.

Please explain the California Cult Phenomenon and how a First year production of any David Abreu or Helen Turley wine would bring a higher auction price than just about any 96, 97, or 98 Prem Cru

[GordonCooks]

I would offer that a sold wine at auction that brings a premium price - promotes speculation ANSI increases the winemaker's profile expotentially.

Auction buyers do not experiment. You don't build your reputation on the auction market. Auction buyers are only buying from producers with already established reputations and then only buy wines from the best years.

Please explain the California Cult Phenomenon and how a First year production of any David Abreu or Helen Turley wine would bring a higher auction price than just about any 96, 97, or 98 Prem Cru

Mass insanity.

[Craig Camp]

Craig -- Even if the garage wines only went for big bucks after Parker gives them a write-up, they still have no track record, and therefore no established reputation.  Purchasing them at high price at auction or whereever for resale is a gamble, not based on historical record of how the wines develop, that some years down the road someone will want to pay more.  I'd call that speculation.

Best regards,

Claude Kolm

The Fine Wine Review

Absolutely Claude - the resale value of these wines is a crapshoot at best. Yet it always seems there is yet another sucker out there ready to drop big money only on the basis of a Parker review - even if that review is 10 years old. Robert does not bother to 'correct' his reviews, why would he bother -what's in it for him?

[docsconz]

It has been almost thirty years since I started to take wine seriously. When I started the best wines in the world were French and that meant just Bordeaux and Burgundy. The world was divided into just two camps - you either thought Burgundy or Bordeaux was the greatest. In those days the Rhone was considered only a sideshow.

Today everything is different and France no longer holds the undisputed wine heavyweight crown. Italy has exploded with quality. The classics from Piemonte and the finest Tuscan wines have no trouble in a battle with Bordeaux and Burgundy and the now included wines of the Rhone are equaled by wines produced from varietals like nero d'avola, negro amaro, refosco and aglianico. California, Spain and Australia have now more than proved their potential to produce wines at the highest quality levels and South Africa, New Zealand and Argentina are not far behind. The Germans, Austrians and now the Canadians are handling the dessert wine segment of the industry just fine.

There is a lot of competition out there and France seems to be in a difficult position. While Burgundy has maintained its identity while improving its wines, sales in Bordeaux seem to be suffering. Perhaps this is because after twenty years of following the style dictates of Robert Parker the great wines of Bordeaux have lost some of their individual personality.

The French made many deposits into their reputation "bank" over the centuries, but it seems now they are only making withdrawals. It would seem there are hard times ahead for the French wine industry.

Could it be that the reputations of a lot of wines around the rest of the world have increased because they have started making "Parker" - style wines? I assume you mean, big, bold and brash as Parker's style. Most of the more well known and currently glamorous wines from the rest of the world (with the possible exception of Burgundy which Parker never could get a handle on, thus Rovani) all share these attributes (e.g. Gaia, Guigal, the top Australians, Clos Erasmus, etc.). It may be that Bordeaux hasn't lost anything, but that as you said the rest of the world is just making better wine. That is a good thing. It is also true that how well and for how long these wines will age is yet another question. I hope to be able to answer that someday .

[hollywood]

Without the loyal (?) opposition, I fear the facade will go the way of the Berlin Wall and the Maginot Line.  

France and Berlin are very nice places today.

Someone with the moniker Hollywood must have an opinion on Bordeaux?

Hey, if you're buying, I'm drinking it. I like Bordeaux but Rhone's more in my price range.

[Beachfan]

The frenzy at which people snap up any Bordeaux labled 2000 supports, albeit temporarily, their claim. Once these move through the pipeline, things will fall flat, with 98s,99s, 01s, 02s all floating around.

But just see a case of 2000 Bordeuax put out at Costco, and you'll see a feeding frenzy.

[davidbdesilva]

Whilst I have nowhere near the knowledge of those responding in this thread, I do have an opinion. My first love of wine was the Italians and, after having brief affairs with Californians, Australians, South Americans and French, I have returned to my first love and now predominantly drink Italian wines, ranging from $10 bottles of fine Salice Salentino to $50 (about what my budget will allow) bottles of Barolo and Barberesco. I think that Italian wine first and foremost is becoming more consistently good across the country, albeit that there is more plonk produced by Italy than probably any other country. But what I love about fine Italian wine that I do not taste as often in French wine is the terrior of the region it's from (yes I know it's a French term). I love tasting the dirt, the sun, and the bursting flavors of Italian wine. Italian wines, IMHO, offer the greatest variety and intense fruit of any other country. And, again IMHO, Italian cuisine is superior to French. A crude sinopsis I know, but my opinion.

[Craig Camp]

Italian wines, IMHO, offer the greatest variety and intense fruit of any other country. And, again IMHO, Italian cuisine is superior to French. .

You are obviously a gentleman of great intelligence and a discerning palate.

[GordonCooks]

I think the main theme has been the decline of French wine quality - I personally think that it's moreso the increase in quality of Italian, Australian, Amercian, New Zealand, South African, etc. I still believe French Wine to be the Benchmark from which many wines can be compared to.

We'll probably see a economic equalization of some sort - the french wines will decrease in price as many of the marquee names i.e. Gaja, Penfolds Grange, Sassacaia, Tignanello, Opus, Greenock Creek, Colgin, Bryant, etc, etc - increase in price. I'm selfishly hopeful of a Bear market in french wine - I'd love to get some cases of Grand Crus for my golden years. In the meantime - I consider myself an equal opportunity consumer.

Edited April 22, 2003 by GordonCooks (log)

[Marina Chang]

Going back to some of the earlier discussion on Bordeaux and other French wines, it is my opinion that the extremely prescriptive French labeling regulations have limited the options of French wineries and winemakers, preventing their wines from evolving and competing with winemaking innovations in other countries. From research I have done, the French AOC (Appellation d'Origine Controlee) labeling regulations limit not only the geographical area, but the grape varieties used, how far apart the vines are planted and number of clusters per vine (i.e. density and yields), whether they are allowed to irrigate, the conditions of winemaking, and wine alcohol content. All these micro-managing regulations would surely keep the French wine industry from much experimentation and from changing their wines to keep up with the rest of the world, let alone changing tastes.

The caliber of California wines have been able to quickly catch up to French and other Western European wines by learning from the traditional techniques and experimenting with new ideas and variations in both grape growing and winemaking. The major difference in philosophy that I've found is that the "terroir" is sacred in Europe and tasting it from year to year is a valued characteristic in European wines. In California, we tweak the wines for the desired flavors and the grape grower and winemaker have more control over the final product than the government or the "terroir."

On a very recent trip to southern France, we visited a very interesting winery in Languedoc, Domaine de Bachellery, where the owner/ winemaker said he is the only winery to have received special permission from the government to make wine from non-traditional varietals. He said he was using 24 varieties of grapes, including an old Basque variety, the Ejiodola, which he blends with Syrah. We found the wines to be very good to excellent. His best wine is named after a French poet, and called Ballade Pour Mistral. It is entirely handmade and a blend of 8 grapes (Pinot Noir, Syrah, Mourvedre, Carignan, Grenache, Merlot, Sauvignon Blanc -don't know the eighth). Really great.

I have not explored Italian wines to a great extent, nor am I very familiar with the wine regulations of Italy, so I can't add to that part of the discussion.

- Marina

[Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review]

Well, I subscribe to the opposite view from that expressed by the other posts here.

Romanée-Conti; La Tâche; the Musigny of Leroy, Roumier, Mugnier, de Vogüé, Faiveley, Drouhin and Domaine de la Vougeraie; Jean-Louis Chave’s Hermitage; the Vosne-Romanée Cros Parantoux of Jayer, Rouget, and Méo-Camuzet; the Chambertin of Rousseau and Leroy; the Chambertin-Clos-de-Bèze of Rousseau, Faiveley, and Groffier; the Cornas of Clape, Verset, and Allemand; Château Haut-Brion; the Volnays of de Montille, Lafarge, d’Angerville, and Lafon; the Bonnes-Mares of Roumier, Groffier, Dujac, de Vogüé, Jadot, and Drouhin; the Richebourgs of DRC, Leroy, and Méo-Camuzet; the Romanée-St-Vivants of Leroy, DRC, and JJ Confuron, etc., etc.

There is no doubt in my mind that the greatest red wines in the world are French, notwithstanding the recent widespread degradation in Bordeaux.

As great as many of the white wines of France are, though, the greatest whites in the world are German Rieslings.

Best regards,

Claude Kolm

The Fine Wine Review

Edited April 22, 2003 by Claude Kolm/The Fine Wine Review (log)

[GordonCooks]

From research I have done, the French AOC (Appellation d'Origine Controlee) labeling regulations limit not only the geographical area, but the grape varieties used, how far apart the vines are planted and number of clusters per vine (i.e. density and yields), whether they are allowed to irrigate, the conditions of winemaking, and wine alcohol content.  All these micro-managing regulations would surely keep the French wine industry from much experimentation and from changing their wines to keep up with the rest of the world, let alone changing tastes.

I still feel there's plenty of room for innovation within those guidelines.

[Marlene]

I have three favourite red wines from three different regions. Australian shiraz, (most of them), Chateau neuf de pape from France, and California's Dynamite Merlot.

My husband swears by German reislings.

[Bux]

Marina, welcome to eGullet. [For those who aren't already aware, Marina has just published a cookbook on the foods of the Pyrenees and is participating in a Q&A this week.]

Going back to some of the earlier discussion on Bordeaux and other French wines, it is my opinion that the extremely prescriptive French labeling regulations have limited the options of French wineries and winemakers, preventing their wines from evolving and competing with winemaking innovations in other countries.  From research I have done, the French AOC (Appellation d'Origine Controlee) labeling regulations limit not only the geographical area, but the grape varieties used, how far apart the vines are planted and number of clusters per vine (i.e. density and yields), whether they are allowed to irrigate, the conditions of winemaking, and wine alcohol content.  All these micro-managing regulations would surely keep the French wine industry from much experimentation and from changing their wines to keep up with the rest of the world, let alone changing tastes.

Yet these very restrictions were what guaranteed one might actually find wine representative of the reason these regions, and in some cases individual plots, had achieved their historical fame. The same situation exists in Tuscany and winemakers managed to produce "super" wines with no legal pedigree beyond table wine.

The caliber of California wines have been able to quickly catch up to French and other Western European wines by learning from the traditional techniques and experimenting with new ideas and variations in both grape growing and winemaking.  The major difference in philosophy that I've found is that the "terroir" is sacred in Europe and tasting it from year to year is a valued characteristic in European wines.  In California, we tweak the wines for the desired flavors and the grape grower and winemaker have more control over the final product than the government or the "terroir."

A sommelier I know has referred to a wine he felt was good, but without local character as a "technical" wine. I took that to mean the wine got a high score on technical merit, but no points for artistry.

On a very recent trip to southern France, we visited a very interesting winery in Languedoc, Domaine de Bachellery, where the owner/ winemaker said he is the only winery to have received special permission from the government to make wine from non-traditional varietals.  He said he was using 24 varieties of grapes, including an old Basque variety, the Ejiodola, which he blends with Syrah.  We found the wines to be very good to excellent.  His best wine is named after a French poet, and called Ballade Pour Mistral.  It is entirely handmade and a blend of 8 grapes (Pinot Noir, Syrah, Mourvedre, Carignan, Grenache, Merlot, Sauvignon Blanc -don't know the eighth).  Really great.

A friend of ours told us of a vineyard in the Languedoc that sought and received permission to grow zinfandel on an experimental basis.

Jacqueline Friedrich, in her book on Loire wines, wrote of a group who clandestinely grow Vitis labrusca and prefer the wines make from them. There's no accounting for taste.

[balex]

From research I have done, the French AOC (Appellation d'Origine Controlee) labeling regulations limit not only the geographical area, but the grape varieties used, how far apart the vines are planted and number of clusters per vine (i.e. density and yields), whether they are allowed to irrigate, the conditions of winemaking, and wine alcohol content.  All these micro-managing regulations would surely keep the French wine industry from much experimentation and from changing their wines to keep up with the rest of the world, let alone changing tastes.

I still feel there's plenty of room for innovation within those guidelines.

Ostertag (in Alsace) is a good example of someone who has fallen afoul of the regulations quite seriously. His innovation was definitely considered outside the norm. The norm has now shifted a bit to accomodate him.