mushrooms

[Hiroyuki]

Also forgive me if my interperatation of Kiritampo is incorrect ...

Just to confirm my credibility, I ran through several websites on the subject, and I ended up proving yours too.

Sorry, I should have been more carefull before I posted.

Let me show you some of the sites (all in Japanese). They tell you that kiritampo is made of uruchigome, but some people add mochigome.

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~UZ2A-KDM/akita/kiritanpo.html

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/komachi/kitchen/ki011801.htm

http://www.sirakaba.co.jp/s17a.html

and this site shows you how to make kiritampo

http://www.city.odate.akita.jp/kiritanpo/howto.htm

The other subject:

The reason is simple: Hon Shimeji cannot be cultivated because they cohabit with (live in a symbiotic relationship with) living trees only. This is true to Matsutake, too.

[sizzleteeth]

Thank you for confirming Hiroyuki.

Please forgive me as I am confused as to why Hon-Shimeji could not be cultivated - as cultivation by definition is simply the production of food by preparing the land to grow crops - or more simply "planting".

If I were to plant an orchard of Beechwood trees and then go out into the woods and and hunt down the rare occurance of a patch of Hon-Shimeji - then use spores from those mushrooms

to cause growth of those mushrooms on my orchard of trees - would these mushrooms not be authentic Hon-Shimeji? As they would be directly "parented" by the naturally occuring and grown

in the natural state.

I believe truffles are farmed by the same method - though it is apparently a very difficult task to

spawn the deliberate growth of truffles and it takes some years before the first harvest

can be had - but it is done none the less.

Example:

http://www.truffes-ventoux.com/en/presentation.html

So I wonder if this is not a possibility?

See you tomorrow.

Edited March 27, 2004 by sizzleteeth (log)

[torakris]

shimeji are quite a confusing mushroom to me. They are probably one of the most popular mushroom in the Japanese stores and you will see loads of packages labeled as hon-shimeji selling for only 100 yen or sometimes less. According to online sources I have learned that most of the mushrooms that are labeled as shimeji are actually a type of hiratake....

[Hiroyuki]

Thank you again, sizzleteeth, for your info.

Your remarks are inspiring, and I am preparing a full report on the subject. But it's going to take some time, maybe a whole week, till I can get it done.

In the meatime, I'd like you to see two pictures of Hon Shimeji:

http://www.cx.sakura.ne.jp/~kinoko/00jap/honsimeji01.htm

http://www.cx.sakura.ne.jp/~kinoko/00jap/honsimeji02.htm

I guess the Hon Shimeji you have eaten look like this:

http://www.theproducehunter.com/productdisplay.asp?ID=2093

Edited March 28, 2004 by Hiroyuki (log)

[Sleepy_Dragon]

I wonder if maitake has made its way into the United States.

http://www.yukigunimaitake.com/

Talk about coincidence. I saw some Maitake Mushrooms at the local farmer's market (Pike Place Market in Seattle) and got them without any idea of how to prepare it. Fortunately, the link you provided above has some recipes, so thank you.

Pat

[Sleepy_Dragon]

Wow. Just got done eating my beef and maitake mushroom stirfry. The umami factor in these mushrooms is off the scale.

So.. do they freeze well? I'm wondering if I should buy up a bunch before they disappear.

Pat

[Hiroyuki]

So.. do they freeze well?

Since I'm not a food specialist, I searched the web for an answer.

The answer is:

Yes, they do. You can freeze them. One caution: Don't wash before you freeze.

Information source (in Japanese):

http://www.tamamedi.com/sapli/enter/maitake_t.htm

Edited March 30, 2004 by Hiroyuki (log)

[Hiroyuki]

So I wonder if this is not a possibility?

Quick report:

Conguratulations, sizzleteeth. You won!!!

Voila. Look at the real Hon Shimeji. Click on the photo to enlarge:

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/wine/news_g/20040208uj22.htm

Still skeptical, I made an inquiry to the manufacturer, and received a reply two days ago. They say that they are real Hon Shimeji.

I'd like to talk about the details later. See you in a day or two. Till then, bye-bye!

[Sleepy_Dragon]

Yes, they do. You can freeze them. One caution: Don't wash before you freeze.

Cool, thank you. Maitake stockpile here I come!

Pat

[Hiroyuki]

Sleepy_dragon, I want to ask you one thing: What do your Maitake look like and taste like?

Here in Japan, the company "Yukiguni Maitake" has an overwhelming market share of 70%. Everywhere you go, you are bound to meet Yukiguni Maitake.

But there are very good local Maitake, too, like this one:

Ishizaka Maitake (Sorry, in Japanese. Just look at the photos.)

http://www.iijnet.or.jp/shiozawa/kankou2/i...ke/isizaka.html

When I first tasted Ishizaka Maitake back in 1992 here in Shiozawa, I was amazed; they were hard and solid. Yukiguni Maitake are rather soft and spongy.

I'm not saying that Yukiguni Maitake are inferior. I just prefer Ishizaka Maitake.

So, I want to know what your local Maikake look like and taste like.

Thank you in advance.

Edited April 3, 2004 by Hiroyuki (log)

[torakris]

Ｉ　ｄｏｎ’ｔ　ｔｈｉｎｋ　Ｉ　ｈａｖｅ　ｅｖｅｒ　ｈａｄ　ｔｈｅ　Ｉｓｈｉｚａｋａ　ｏｎｅｓ．．．．

I think I should pay more attention.

I do buy the white ones sometimes, especially when they would provide a nice contrast in the dish.

white maitake:

https://www.rakuten.co.jp/shoku/img1027643152.jpeg

[Hiroyuki]

Ｉ　ｄｏｎ’ｔ　ｔｈｉｎｋ　Ｉ　ｈａｖｅ　ｅｖｅｒ　ｈａｄ　ｔｈｅ　Ｉｓｈｉｚａｋａ　ｏｎｅｓ．．．．

Sorry to have caused you misunderstanding. Ishizaka Maitake are quite local.

I want to try white ones, but I've never seen those in any of my local supermarkets.

[Sleepy_Dragon]

Sleepy_dragon, I want to ask you one thing: What do your Maitake look like and taste like?

Hmph, I went back to that shop but they were all out. They said they'd have more in next week, so if I can get them then, I'll take a digital picture and post it here.

Anyway, the ones I got last time are not like the ones in that link, though still obviously in the same family. They sprouted from white mushroom flesh which turned black towards the tips of each shelf. I guess it is something like that middle picture, but not so much a solid dark color. More like a gradient from white to black going from inside to out.

The texture had some crunch to it, and it was juicy. The taste was very meaty. Umami. Sorry I don't have more words for it, I hope I can find more, then a photo will solve our identification problems.

Pat

[Hiroyuki]

I am confused as to why Hon-Shimeji could not be cultivated

Hi, sizzleteeth, I'm back. How are you? I wonder if you are still there.

Now, the basics:

Basically, there are two types of fungi:

1) Decay fungi: Destroy wood to live. Easy to cultivate. Examples: Maitake, Shiitake, Enoki, Buna Shimeji

2) Mycorrhizal fungi: Live in a symbiotic relationship with trees. Difficult to cultivate. Examples: Truffle, Matsutake, Hon Shimeji

I understand that truffles are cultivated in what you might call an "orchard" approach. As far as I know, such an approach has never been taken in Japan to grow matsutake or hon shimeji. But a similar approach is being taken in Tanba, Kyoto, the biggest matsutake producing district in Japan:

http://www.pref.kyoto.jp/forest/sinrin/matutake.htm

(in Japanese)

under the slogan of "採るマツタケからつくるマツタケ" (shift from matsutake gathering to matsutake making)

because of sharp decreases in annual production; mere 40 tons on average in the last decade from 1,200 tons or greater before the war.

And there is a book available that "proposes" an orchard approach to matsutake cultivation:

http://bookweb2.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi...NIPS=9970202553

(in Japanese)

As for hon shimeji, however, probably because of their lower market price, no such approach seems to be taken.

I have found two sites about two cases of successful hon shimeji cultivation:

http://www.kippo.or.jp/KansaiWindowHtml/Ne...61119_NEWS.HTML

(2nd story) (in English!)

http://www.kippo.or.jp/KansaiWindowHtml/Ne...11205_NEWS.HTML

(4th story) (in English again!)

These two successes are just experimental.

When I first read the story about the real cultivated hon shimeji, I suspected it was just another fake:

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/wine/news_g/20040208uj22.htm

(already mentioned in my previous post)

I made an inquiry to the manufacturer, ヤマサ醤油 (Yamasa Shoyu), and they said they were 本物, genuine. They also said they are on sale only at Ikegukuro Seibu department store in Tokyo at the moment (probably because of the low annual production of 300-500 kg).

According to the site above, the hon shimeji have been on sale at that store since the end of last year. A box of 300-gram hon simeji is 1000 yen, which is about one-third that of wild ones.

I have no clear clue as to how those particular hon shimeji are cultivated; the above website does not give a description of it and I cannot find any other sources. Probably, they are cultivated in much the same way as other types of mushroom such as maitake, that is, in a limited indoor space with air conditioning, rather than an open field, but I can never be sure.

Sorry, this is not much of a "full report", contrary to my initial intention.

I wonder if this has cleared up your confusion.

Give me a reply when you have time.

Till then, bye!

Edited April 5, 2004 by Hiroyuki (log)

[docsconz]

This has been a fascinating thread that before now I have overlooked. Maitake mushrooms are becoming much more popular in the US. I can even get them in my supermarket! I recently had grilled Maitakes at the restaurant Hearth in NYC that were exquisite.

[Hiroyuki]

Maitake mushrooms are becoming much more popular in the US.

Wow, I'm glad to hear that!! Thank you for your information.

[Hiroyuki]

Quick Report 2

Ladies and gentlemen, may I present the one and only, world's first, authentic cultivated matsutake, "Matsu Kinoko"!!

Come and get it from here:

http://www.hint.or.jp/kozan/matukinoko/matukinoko.htm

I lied. I deceived you. No hard feelings. After all, I just deceived you and a couple of other guys only. But, let me remind you that just one year ago, one hundred and twenty million Japanese people were deceived in much the same way as you were just now, by the press, the manufacturer, and above all, the "inventor" of Matsu Kinoko. Of course, I was one of those people.

You don't want to hear any more, do you?

[docsconz]

Please tell us more. Inquiring minds want to know.

[Hiroyuki]

If you say so. But it's kind of a local topic, I mean, a topic specific to Japan, a country with so many matsutake lovers.

In September 2002, 東洋きのこ農園, Toyo Kinoko Noen, in Hiroshima Prefecture, started releasing this mushroom, called Matsu Kinoko, which they claimed was produced with what they called "fusion" technology, fusing Matsutake and Shiitake fungi on the same culture, the technology being developed by a private-sector researcher in Yamaguchi prefecture. The Noen said that they were making Matsu Kinoko by fusing 80%-Matsutake and 20%-Shiitake fungi.

It was on April 19, 2003, that this topic was taken up by Nikkei Shimbun (Nikkei). Subsequently, major national newspaper companies such as Mainichi Shimbun and Asahi Shimbun covered the story, as well as major TV stations including NHK, sending Japanese people into such a frenzy. But in May, the Forestry Agency requested the Forestry and Forest Products Research Institute to appraise the product. On June 17, the Institute determined that Matsu Kinoko was a shiitake because of its several characteristics.

On June 20, NHK reported that the artificially cultivated matsutake, Matsu Kinoko, was a shiitake.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis/6868/nten.htm

What was silly about this incident was that those mass media reported this mushroom without any scientific basis, without waiting for the results of a DNA analysis.

The silliest thing is that the researcher had admitted that it was a shiitake.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis/6868/ikasama4.htm.

(in Japanese. If you don't read Japanese, never mind. It's for those who read it.)

Fame, publicity, commercialism, mass media, ...

What do you think?

You know, that's why I always go for this product:

Matsutake soup (松茸の味 お吸い物) of Nagatanien (永谷園）

http://www.rakuten.co.jp/mindtrips/479578/479583/

It's a fake. But it's good.

There is a website specializing in a variety of fake matsutake! (in Japanese):

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis/6868/index.html

This TV program tells you that edamame (young soy beans) have the same flavor as one of Matustake's two flavors.

http://www.ntv.co.jp/megaten/library/date/02/11/1110.html

(in Japanese only)

Edited April 5, 2004 by Hiroyuki (log)

[docsconz]

Fascinating. Thank you.

[torakris]

Hiroyuki,

Thank you for all of that information!

back to maitake for a moment, here is a picture of the most common type found in Japan the yuki-guni type

[docsconz]

Those look very much like the ones I had at Hearth.

[Hiroyuki]

That's it. Thank you, torakris.

[Hiroyuki]

Have you ever tried brown enoki?

http://www.chinjuh.mydns.jp/hakubutu/kinoko/enoki01.htm

Look at the photo under 11.

http://www.bimiranman.jp/processes/enoki/

The one on the left is a bunch of white enoki, the one on the right brown enoki.

I have bought brown enoki several times, and I think that brown enoki taste almost the same as white enoki. Now I don't want to buy them any longer mainly because the price is twice or three times higher than that of white enoki.

Do you know what wild enoki look like? Quite different from cultured ones.

http://www.cx.sakura.ne.jp/~kinoko/00jap/enokitake01.htm

Beautiful, aren't they?

[torakris]

Those wild enoki are gorgeous! Do you know if they sell them anywhere? Have you tasted them?

I too was disappointed by the brown enoki, I thought they might taste "wilder" but they don't and are definitely not worth the price.....