Corned Beef (and cabbage?)

[col klink]

You know how really good brisket melts in your mouth and is really soft?  That's the texture I want for the corned beef.

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Brisket is a tough and chewy cut if not treated properly. In good hands brisket is in one of my top three cuts. To get there, you need to cook it slowly and at a low temperature. If I'm not smoking my corned beef brisket (*bliss*), I roast it under the same conditions sans smoke.

~225F for 6 or 7 hours for a up to a 5 lb brisket. Notice I don't add water -- I roast it dry which gives a nice crust, especially around the fatty exterior bits.

Roasting or braising at a higher temp will render the fat but 2 or 3 hours just isn't enough time to break down the collagen between the muscle fibers.

Often times I'll just throw a corned point brisket in the oven over night and then I have fantastic lunch meat in the morning.

If I'm not picking up a whole brisket I prefer point cut to flat cut because it has more fat and the last thing I do is trim any excess. Don't worry, you'll loose half the weight of your brisket after a long slow cooking like this. If there's too much Godly fat after cooking, that's the time to trim it. Otherwise you're putting your brisket at a higher risk of being dry.

Rinsing corned beef briskets in water to draw out excess salt is a very good idea since most commercial cbb's end up far too salty otherwise.

[Toliver]

Hmmm, I always do corned been in the crock pot for at least five or more hours, and it is always super tender melt in your mouth delicious.  I suppose this is similar to braising, although if you have a crock pot you may want to try.

I usually toss it in with several chopped onions, some bay leaves, a touch of cayenne, and some vinegar.

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Ditto on the crockpot. I use pickling spices in the water. I come home from work to fork-tender corned beef and sometimes will remove the corned beef and then use the water to boil some potatoes and carrots (I have a West Bend Slow Cooker that sits on a base and the metal pot can be taken off the base and be put directly on the stove). Delicious.

edited to add link

Edited October 6, 2004 by Toliver (log)

[bloviatrix]

~225F for 6 or 7 hours for a up to a 5 lb brisket. Notice I don't add water -- I roast it dry which gives a nice crust, especially around the fatty exterior bits......

If I'm not picking up a whole brisket I prefer point cut to flat cut because it has more fat and the last thing I do is trim any excess. Don't worry, you'll loose half the weight of your brisket after a long slow cooking like this. If there's too much Godly fat after cooking, that's the time to trim it. Otherwise you're putting your brisket at a higher risk of being dry.

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The corned beef that I'm using is about 4 pounds and is a point cut. With a standard point, I braise it at about 275 for 5 hours. I've got to see if my oven can hold 225F. If so, I might put it in overnight and see what happens.

Worse thing that happens is that I only serve my guests the chicken.

Edited October 6, 2004 by bloviatrix (log)

[bloviatrix]

Hmmmm, it didn't work quite as well as I expected. The good thing is there was less shrinkage than usual. But, my guinea pig, aka Blovie, tells me the finished product is tougher than usual.

I put the corned beef into a 225F oven -- uncovered, and on a rack -- for 6 hours. Let cool and sliced. After I brushed with the glaze, I covered and put back in the oven for 30 minutes at 300F.

[NancyH]

I think that extra bit of heat - to 325F - is what makes it simmer sufficiently to make the meat melt in your mouth without boiling it to toughness or letting it remain undercooked. But I could be wrong.

How was the flavor? How did the texture of the glaze work out? I've always wanted to make my own corned beef!

[Toliver]

Hmmmm, it didn't work quite as well as I expected.  The good thing is there was less shrinkage than usual.  But, my guinea pig, aka Blovie, tells me the finished product is tougher than usual.

I put the corned beef into a 225F oven -- uncovered, and on a rack -- for 6 hours.  Let cool and sliced.  After I brushed with the glaze, I covered and put back in the oven for 30 minutes at 300F.

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What if you cooked it covered or in a foil bag for most of the time (with some sort of liquid) and then uncovered it, glazed it and cooked it on a rack for the last hour? I'm thinking that might provide you with the best of both cooking methods.

[NancyH]

Sorry - I didn't realize you said you cooked it uncovered! It definitely has to be covered during the "low and slow" part of cooking to stay moist and tender.

[bloviatrix]

How was the flavor? How did the texture of the glaze work out?  I've always wanted to make my own corned beef!

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I use a glaze the was originally meant for ham. It's a 2:1 ratio of brown sugar to pineapple juice with 1 inch worth of grated ginger. This is brought to a boil and reduced to a simmer for about 5 to 7minutes and then brushed all over the sliced meat. Depending on whom I'm serving the corned beef I might add a pinch of cayenne for a hint of heat.

[bloviatrix]

Obviously, coming up with a better technique is going to require cooking more corned beefs. Only problem is that each corned beef costs about $12/lb (kosher meat is expensive).

[col klink]

Ahh, I didn't realize your briskets were Kosher. Did they trim all of the fat off the top?

I can roast my briskets uncovered because I rarely trim the fat off -- the fat keeps the brisket moist. Was there any visible fat on your brisket?

Obviously, coming up with a better technique is going to require cooking more corned beefs.  Only problem is that each corned beef costs about $12/lb (kosher meat is expensive).

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Oy! And I thought $6/lb was high!

[bloviatrix]

Ahh, I didn't realize your briskets were Kosher. Did they trim all of the fat off the top?

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Actually, there was quite a bit of fat on it. There was a "nice" accumulation of fat at the bottom of the roasting pan this morning.

[col klink]

And it still came out dry?

Do you happen to have a convection oven?

[bloviatrix]

Nope. The oven is plain old gas.

[fifi]

Most of the time, all we can get is the smaller flats. They range from about 3 to 4 pounds. I have never tried to do those in the oven uncovered. For the low slow method, I use a covered Le Creuset with no added liquid. Like buttah!!!

[markk]

I've always thought that the corned beef that's served in traditional Jewish delis is completely different in taste and texture from the corned beef that's sold in cryovac in the supermarkets (especially around St. Patrick's Day) which you either steam or roast yourself. If indeed they are different, can anybody explain the differences? Thanks.

[budrichard]

Corned refers to the curing process using salt and generally a little salt peter for preservation and color retention. The rest is based on the quality of the brisket, spices used and the method. So 'corned' does not imply a uniform method from producers. The stuff you see cryovaced is an industrial product using tenderized brisket and infusion of spices and preserving agents.

To reproduce 'Deli' style, you can do the process yourself.

Obatin the higest quality brisket you can get. Purchase some salt peter. Prepare lots of raw garlic with coriander seeds, black pepper corns, ceylon cinnamin sticks, star anise, cardamon, feneugreek, mustard seed and whatever else suits your taste buds. Put it all with a salt water mixture into a 2 gal freezer bag with a 1/4 teaspoon salt peter. Refrigerate and wait 3 weeks turning daily. -Dick

[jhlurie]

I know that when I've bought those supermarket ones, I've never been satisfied with the spicing. At the very least, if you have to use those, don't be satisfied with whatever spicing they are including by default. The Nathan's brand adds a little spice packet along with the meat, but I found even that to not be enough.

I'm actually very tempted to try budrichard's suggestion. Perhaps someone with more time on their hands, a good digital camera, and a bit more patience will do so and document it here for us.

P.S. - I'm moving this to "Cooking". It seems like a pretty straight-up "how to" question.

[markk]

I know that when I've bought those supermarket ones, I've never been satisfied with the spicing.  At the very least, if you have to use those, don't be satisfied with whatever spicing they are including by default.  The Nathan's brand adds a little spice packet along with the meat, but I found even that to not be enough.

I'm actually very tempted to try budrichard's suggestion.  Perhaps someone with more time on their hands, a good digital camera, and a bit more patience  will do so and document it here for us.

P.S. - I'm moving this to "Cooking".  It seems like a pretty straight-up "how to" question.

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It's not that the spicing is "not enough" or anything like that, really. It's that the whole texture of the thing, and the overall flavor as well, just seem totally different to me. Maybe primarily the texture even, because if anything, I might have described the deli corned beef as much milder, and more delicate... but I can't put my fingers on it.

Also, I wasn't actually asking how to make a corned beef to taste like the ones at the Jewish deli, I was looking for a description of the differences, because I was trying to explain it to a friend who only knows the cryovac one you buy at St. Patrick's Day but has never had the kind you get at the deli. And that's when I realized that I can't put my fingers on it.

[alacarte]

this may be a dumb question, but what's in saltpeter? I'm guessing it's not just salt.

[Toliver]

You could start with the infamous "The Great Pastrami/Smoked Meat Experiment, Getting to the bottom of things" posted by Chef Fowkes. Pastrami is corned beef afterall, just taken a step further.

There are also links in the first post that may help answer some questions.

[fifi]

I was going to make corned beef one day to serve with cabbage, St. Paddy's day ya know. I looked at that pathetic little spice packet in there. Hmmm . . . That looks an awful lot like crab boil. So I went to the spice aisle and picked up a box of the whole spice Zatarains. Then I went a little nuts. (And it had absolutely nothing to do with the excellent Merlot and company at the time. ) I used the whole bag to coat about a 4 pound corned beef brisket. It works well to put the meat in a 2 gallon zipper bag and massage it in. Then I put about 1/2 cup dark brown sugar on the top. I put that in the Le Creuset with some beer in the bottom, about an inch or a bit less (not more than half way up the meat). I put it into a 250 degree F oven for about 3 hours, I think. I don't know exactly, I went by texture. I knocked off most of the spices before slicing. OMG! It was so good, that it has become the preferred family way of preparing it. It literally melts in your mouth and is nicely spiced.

We have since fine tuned it a bit. I now add some whole cloves and allspice to the crab boil mix. I also soak the beef in several changes of cold water to reduce the salt. Is it just me or is the corned beef I get now saltier than it used to be? And I like salty food.

I think the tenderness reminds me of the stuff I used to get at the Jewish deli in the neighborhood years ago. But, I have no idea if that particular deli version was typical. I think the sugar helped as well. I seem to remember a bit of a sweet note in the deli version. Not a lot. My version isn't really sweet.

[budrichard]

1. Saltpeter is Potassium Nitrate for the chemists. I obtained my 6oz jar about 20 years ago and it is still going strong. (You use very little in the process). It is a preservative that is a common item in smoked foods but is used in corning to preserve the color of the meat otherwise it becomes a dull gray.

2. The thin sliced product that you get in many deli's is not really corned beef. A good deli will have a round of corned beef on a steamer table and will hand slice the corned beef to order. Why there is a difference, I can't answer because I don't eat the thin sliced product, in fact I run from any deli that serves it.

The best deli's are on Long Island and in New York City, hands down. Until you eat from one of these deli's, you don't have a good benchmark. In New York City, I suggest Russ & Daughters, probaly the best deli anywhere in the world.

3. Stop purchasing the commercial product and prepare your own. I guarantee that it will out perform anything you get in the grocery store in cryovac! -Dick

[sladeums]

Ok, hey...it's that time of year again.

Tomorrow (SOS tomorrow) I plan on cooking corned beef, cabbage and red potatoes in my crockpot.

For those of you who use the crockpot method for cooking corned beef, does anyone have a (extremely detailed) method?

My strategy thus far is to soak it overnight to remove excess salt, discard the prepackaged spices that came with it (should I not toss them? - - sorry, but I'm not going out again to buy crab boil or pickling spices) and toss it in the crockpot with some bay, peppercorns, allspice, cloves and maybe some garlic.

The main thing I'm not sure of is the amount of time and at what temp to cook it, the amount of liquid that is necessary (I have a large oval 6+-quart cooker) and how to cook the potatoes and cabbage...pitch everything together and let it go all day? toss the veg into the crock for the last couple hours? cook the veg separately after the corned beef is pulled?

Damn, I guess I have a lot of questions.

Any guidance in the crockpot cooking of this feast would be appreciated...

[chefdg]

I'm a stickler for the rules and the rules state that braising an item requires that you brown it first, then cook slowely, covered tightly, in a liquid median. Stove top or oven method wil produce the same results given the temp. of the water is the same.

Edited March 10, 2005 by chefdg (log)

[jm chen]

I bought a big slab of corned beef (in the vacuum pack with the little included packet o' flavor) a couple days ago. I think it's around four pounds, and the directions call for boiling 50 minutes per pound.

My eating partner and I love us some beef, but... not all at once.

Should I cook it all up and freeze half? Or cut it in half first, cooking half and freezing half raw? Or cut it in quarters and do some combination?

Regardless, looks like lots of Reubens in the near future. Or, if we're splurgy, David Rosengarten's Reuben Rolls, with homemade Russian... mmm.