Gardening: 2002-2009 Seasons

[Hopleaf]

Since I'm moving into my new house (yes, finally ditchin' the condo digs) and I'll have an expansive back yard, I plan on starting a garden. After a search, I found there really wasn't a thread devoted to all things garden. There's been a few threads here and there about gardening, mostly related to specific fruits and veggies and how best to grow them.

SOOO, what say you all?

To start, I'm planning on growing a variety of usefull plants that I can use in the kitchen. Since I'll be moving in early December, I figured that I'd take a break from unpacking by preparing the garden area for the winter. Any tips on what to do now to get it ripe and ready for a spring planting? or am I best off waiting to begin until spring? Guess I'm just chomping at the bit, but I figured it might be a good idea to lay some fertilizer (maybe good old manure if I can get my hands on some, speaking figuratively of course, I'd be sure to use gloves and a shovel!), and then cover with a layer of mulch. what're some good mulches?

Also, does anyone have any recommendations as far as what to plant? I'm definitely gonna have some tomatoes, lettuce, herbs, potatoes, onions, and I'd like to start some raspberry brambles.

Thanks!

[Rail Paul]

Congratulations on your new home.

Depending on where you live, there may still be some time to work over a garden site. Each Fall, I usually turn over the soil in my garden to a depth of about 18 inches, working in last year's compost from leaves and grass clippings. If you can still work the soil, do it now.

It's also a good time to put in fence posts for your garden fence. And, look thru the catalogs. I like Johnny's selected seeds from Maine, and Renee's Garden (the former owner of Shepherd's Seeds) for their diversity.

[Mrs. Meadow]

oooh Hopleaf, there is nothing more satisfying than cooking straight from your own garden!

Yes, old manure is a good starting point; mark off your plot, lay about 6" of old manure and rototill it in. Depending on your winter, you can always put in some lettuce and greens in December for February harvesting. By the time you are ready to put in the summer crop, you will have had a few months of these plants. We currently have arugula, oak lead lettuce, mustard greens, and a few kales in the raised bed, which will all come out in March when the summer crop goes in.

We have a separate herb garden with garlic chives, summer savory, chervil, Italian parsely, tarragon, cilantro, lemon thyme, lime thyme, English thyme, spearmint, apple mint, lemon balm, marjoram, oregano, lemon verbena and lemon grass. We have quite a few fruit trees; kaffir lime, Meyer lemon, Gravenstein apple, Cox's Orange Pippin, Seckle pear, Italian fig, a peach tree, 4 blueberries and a 20' long patch of raspberries. All this on a 1/4 acre suburban lot.

As for mulch, I do that after plants are established, to help keep down the weeds and keep moisture in. Great excuse to buy a chipper; chip makes great mulch for the trees and berries in the fall.

I received Georgeanne Brennan's book French Kitchen Garden (can't remember the exact title at the moment) when we moved here-very useful and quite inspiring. Good luck and congratulations on your new home!

[snowangel]

Any tips on what to do now to get it ripe and ready for a spring planting? or am I best off waiting to begin until spring?

Get some great compost now, spread it all over the garden, rent a roto-tiller, and till all of that good organic matter in. Whether you have sandy or clay-ey soil, it all needs regular augmentation with organic matter.

Second, start your own compost bins. We have three, made out of chicken wire. One for the new clipping and stuff, which gets turned the following year into bin 2, and then finally into bin 3, at which point it is ready to use. You can put any kind of veggie scraps into the compost, and we also bag our lawn clippings (keeps them from being dragged into the house on wet feet) which go into compost, as do our leaves (we grind them up first). I use my very own compost for mulch. The price is certainly right.

But, for this first year, many communities have compost which is free for the taking.

Once this is done, get yourself to the library and check out all kinds of books on gardening, both veggies and flowers. Get books with different philosophies, and do your own comparison.

For what you should actually plant, check with your neighbors and see what they have particular success with. Get every seed catalogue you can (Johnny's, burpee, gurney, seed savers exchange, etc.). A lot of what you have success with has more to do with the sun and your soil situation. If you only get a little bit of late afternoon sun, some things will be out for you. And, if your soil is really heavy and clay-like, you'll have trouble with any root crops that seek their way down. Some plants don't do a thing until the soil reaches a particular temperature, etc., etc. Remember you will have the best luck if you order from a company that's on roughly the same latitude as you are. Is there a horticultural society in Chicago or Illinois? We have a great hort. society in Minnesota that puts out an absolutely fabulous magazine geared just for gardeners in Minnesota.

Good luck. Gardenening is unbelievably rewarding; even weeding can be meditative.

[Hopleaf]

ok, first I should say that I'm just northwest of Chicago. I think that's Zone 5 on the USDA plant hardiness map. It's been a mild fall so far (we've been known to have colder ones) so the ground is still pretty soft. I won't be able to start on the garden until after we move in, which should be early December. So, hopefully the ground will still be soft enough to till some manure in. Speaking of which, when I said 'good old manure' I mean it in the same way as 'good old Bob, he's all right.' WHich begs the question, Mrs. Meadow, what's 'old manure?' is it just stuff that's sat out awhile? My parents live amidst farmland in Western Wisconsin and every year in late fall the local farmers spread manure on their tilled soil. So, I'm thinking you're talking about doing the same.

First things first though, I have to plot the garden and remove the grass. Is it possible to just till that under? or will the grass just grow through?

Why do you separate an herb garden from the rest of your garden?

Rail Paul, you mention the seed catalogues...is that something I can do over the winter, sprout my seeds and grow them indoors and then plant them in the spring? I vaguely recall my mother doing that with tomatoes, but I'm not sure if that works so well with other plants.

Thank you both for your input.

[snowangel]

The best way to remove the grass is to kill it. My prefered method is to anchor cut open black plastic lawn and leaf bags on it. In a few days, it is dead, and very easy to till in. You could also use round-up, but I tend to avoid chemicals in the garden and on the lawn.

I actually plant herbs in with my flowers, not in a separate plot. They provide nice visual interest in a flower garden. Anything you plant that is a perennial should be noted on a "garden map" you should create. If someone needs a gift idea for you, suggest a gardening diary. You'd be surprised at how much you forget from year to you, and it's nice to have a record of what worked especially well, tasted great, was a disaster, was yucky, etc.

Depending on how many of particular plants you want, it may be more economical to just buy a plant. If you want one tarragon plant, let's say, the packet of seeds may be more expensive than a single plant. And, you will need lights if you want to start plants indoors or else they (especially tomatos) become too leggy.

Whatever you do with herbs, DO NOT (yes, I am shouting) plant anything in the mint family in your garden. It will take over. It will move out into the yard, taking over the grass, too. You will be sorry because the stuff is really, really, really hard to get rid of. Mint is best off in a pot.

[Hopleaf]

snowangel, you read my mind about the composting. My sister has done this for years, she's up in Duluth and they get the best harvests, despite a shorter growing season, mostly because of her exceptional compost. Plus, it cuts down on their garbage. So, I'll be doing that. I wanted to build somthing to contain the compost, something with four posts into the ground, some cross supports and a little chicken wire. The compost has to be touching the ground, right?

And I'll look into a horticultural society, there has to be one here. I've just been trying to ramp up via the Internet. I did find gardentoad.com, maybe you've seen it already, if not check it out:

Gardentoad.com

Thanks

[Hopleaf]

And, you will need lights if you want to start plants indoors or else they (especially tomatos) become too leggy.

Whatever you do with herbs, DO NOT (yes, I am shouting) plant anything in the mint family in your garden.  It will take over.  It will move out into the yard, taking over the grass, too.  You will be sorry because the stuff is really, really, really hard to get rid of.  Mint is best off in a pot.

could you explain 'leggy'? do you mean that the plant would develop too many roots?

And I knew that about mint, they spread like weeds. I figure that might have to be a potted plant in the kitchen.

[Mrs. Meadow]

Yes, mint in a pot is a GOOD THING.

Unless, like me, you enjoy ripping it out every few months as it takes over everything in it's path. I use 3 different mints as a ground cover under the apple trees.

The perrenial herbs (savory, sage, thyme, rosemary, marjoram) are in a much smaller kitchen garden next to the house, the rest in pots scattered around the back yard. Just an aesthetic decision; I grow herbs the way others grow flowers! And yes, old manure has just been sitting around for a while (3-6 months).

Check out your local ag extension for information about your growing conditions and crop/pest control advice. Ours offered fancy Smith & Hawken composters at a 70% discount around the time we moved in.

[snowangel]

Actually, my compost bins are just chicken wire, bent into round shapes. Very low tech. It took longer to cut the chicken wire into the right lengths than it did to set them up. So, yes, mine sit on the ground.

Leggy -- lots of stem without lots of leaves; sort of the opposite of bushy.

And you know that how much you can get done when you move in depends on the weather between now and then. If it continues to be mild, you'll be in luck.

Get all the advice you can from your sister. Gardening in Northern Minnesota is challenging. I take it she does not live on Lake Superior.

[Rail Paul]

I've experimented with raised beds in my herb garden alongside the house. Originally it was a ten inch high wood plank on three sides. Soil from my other garden (70% soil, 30% older compost) was hauled over and filled in. That has worked superbly, although Dee required me to line the exterior with brick for aesthetic purposes.

I've used indoor sprouting tools for years. You can buy them or make them. One of the better is sold by Gardeners Eden. A 24 or 48 cell planter device which rests on a fabric mat, which in turn dips into a nutrient rich liquid. A clear plastic top sits over the sprouts. As the plants grow, you can transfer them to larger planters. You can begin lettuce or tomatoes inside, and transplant them outdoors when the weather permits. You can tie in a growing light on a timer, if you wish. Gives you 4 to 6 weeks of growth on tomatoes and basil, etc.

In NJ, we have the excellent fortune of Well Sweep Farm, which specializes in exotic basil, thyme, rosemary, oregano, many medicinals, etc. I usually buy these plants already started. Helps a good business, and gives me a good start.

[Hopleaf]

Get all the advice you can from your sister.  Gardening in Northern Minnesota is challenging.  I take it she does not live on Lake Superior.

Well, she's not right off the lake, but close enough to get some lake-effect snow. She's on the western side of town. She's managed to live on both ends, as well as one place in the middle, of I35. Talk about running the gamut of planting zones.

[JSD]

Be careful using manure. If it is fresh, not composted, it can be full of weed seeds ready to sprout. In addition, it can be quite salty if it also has urine in it (for instance if you get horse manure from a stable). Manure also doesn't have a lot of nutrients to add. It is good in that it breaks up the soil particles which is good for drainage. If you do get some manure, it would be better to compost it first, rather than adding it directly to your garden. It is important to know what kind of soil you actually have, such as the texture and the pH. Your local cooperative extension can either test your soil, or tell you where to have it tested.

[tsquare]

[And I knew that about mint, they spread like weeds. I figure that might have to be a potted plant in the kitchen.

Do you know that oregano is part of the family?

Feverfew will also spread like crazy, horehound too, so I hear - after I grew it this year and saw the stem structure, I pulled it all out and dried it (no idea what to do with it - tea, I think.)

[maggiethecat]

Hoppy: Hooray! A gardening buddy in the Chicago burbs. I will add more later (gardeners are a close second in passion to foodies) but:

Here is the best thing I ever learned about preparing new beds. THE OLD NEWSPAPER TRICK:

Cover the areas you want to turn into beds with newspaper 4-5- layers thick. Cover with a couple of inches of mulch you buy at the gas station or Builder's Square. By April the grass will have broken down and the paper and mulch turned to compost. Till and plant. Easy!

And pay a visit to the Planter's Palette on Roosevelt Road in either West Chicago or Wheaton---West Chicago I think. Just west of Winfield Road. Their selection of everything is top-notch and so is their expertise.

[DaveFaris]

The tomato plants being too leggy means that since you can't replicate the intensity of the sun with grow lights, the plants will grow, but the space between the leaves will be end up being pretty far apart, so the plant will grow tall and spindley.

When you choose the spot for your garden, make sure you pick a spot that gets at least 6 hours of full sun every day. 8 would be better.

Look into buying a drip irrigation hose (aka soaker hose)... it looks like a normal black garden hose, but it has thousands of tiny perferations, and when you snake it throughout your plants, especially once they're established, it provides water to where the plants need it. A good one should only set you back about $25. And consider getting a spigot timer, while you're at it, but don't completely rely on it.

I strongly second the mulching with newspaper. I covered my garden (including the irrigation hose) with strips of newspaper, covered by 3 inches of grass clippings. (My yard was too small to produce enough grass clippings to cover my whole garden bed. Luckily, many of my neighbors bag their grass clippings and throw them out with the trash -- free mulch for the taking -- but stay away from neighbors who have dogs.) There are those who say that you should avoid newspaper with colored inks, since the inks may contain heavy metals, which end up in your soil when the newspaper breaks down. However, the only place I know to get newsprint these days without colored ink is at the art supply store.

Mulching keeps the weeds down, and you don't need to water your garden as often. And the watering that you do end up doing won't evaporate as quickly.

I've always heard that it's best to stay away from wood mulch in the garden, because as the chips break down, they leech nitrogen from the soil.

In zone 5, your growing season is pretty short... you may not get your garden going until late spring. Lots of seed companies will sell you seedlings instead of seeds (more expensive), and some will even send you the plants at the right time for your zone. Otherwise, get to know the people at your local hothouse. They'll have great advice. Neighbors, too.

For a very rough time-table, you should start preparing your beds when the forsythia blossoms. You should plant the stuff that likes the cold (lettuce, spinach, peas) when the lilacs have blossomed. Tomatoes and other hot weather crops shouldn't go in until all danger of frost has passed... usually mid-May.

Neighbors with trees often bag up and throw away leaves in the autumn -- another source for free compost material.

As far as specific plants go, it's easy to get carried away on your first year -- and maybe it's necessary as part of the learning process. My first year, I planted too many plants, too close together. Not enough air circulation, I guess. Still, I got more than enough tomatoes, peppers (hot and sweet), herbs, and pickling cucumbers to make it all worth it. (During high season, I was making 15 quarts of pickles a week!)

With tomatoes, it's a good idea not to water the plant from above, especially the fruits themselves, because the heat of the sun combined with the water on the flesh is apt to cause them to split. Of course, unless you live in a desert area of Illinois, you'll get rain, and it will be unavoidable.

I've read that putting a couple of crushed Tums in the hole before you plant your tomato seedlings will prevent some common tomato ailments (due to the calcium). Don't know if it helps, but it certainly doesn't hinder.

Marigolds in the garden keep aphids away.

Gardening is fun, but lots of work. Best of luck!

Edited November 22, 2002 by DaveFaris (log)

[Hopleaf]

Ok, now I'm really chomping at the bit.

Maggie, that newspaper trick sounds perfect. One of my concerns was whether or not the soil would be tillable once we actually get there. We're not moving until the first week of December and I figured by then we might already have snow. But, snow or not, I could still do the newspaper thing.

Now let's talk mulch. In Park Ridge, there's usually a huge mound of wood chips available for the taking It's just down the street from the Metra station, if you're interested). But DaveFaris' suggestion is to avoid wood mulch. I know that I'll have a bunch of leaves available right when we get in (the house was vacant through the fall so there's some raking to be done). if I lay the newspaper, can I just use the leaves and do I have to grind them up? I could also just go get some mulch from the Home Depot.

And I'll check out Planter's Palette. Have you ever gone to Gethsemane? it's on Clark just south of Ridge. Love that place. It's gonna be a haul from the burbs, but well worth it.

tsquare, I did NOT know that about oregano. Thanks! Another canidate for a pot indoors.

Dave, that's one comprehensive post. Thank you so much. I'm printing this entire thread and keeping it with my garden journal. One question, you mention forsythia blooming? what's forsythia?

And does anyone have any stories of starting their own garden that they'd like to regale us with? Things you did right, things you did that were compeletly wrong. Love to hear it.

[DaveFaris]

Forsythia is a bush that starts off bright yellow in the early spring, and turns green as the season goes on. It's one of the earliest flowering things you see in the springtime.

[Hopleaf]

And is that something you can plant in late fall?

[tommy]

i see that putting mint in a pot has been suggested here. clearly a good idea. i'm not sure if it was suggested that you can then plant that pot, so to speak, so the mint is still in your garden, enjoying the same sun and care, and not over on a table somewhere lookin' all alone and minty.

[DaveFaris]

Don't know if you want to plant forsythis, per se... just use the ones your neighbors have already planted as an indicator that the ground is thawing enough to start working the soil. (This is also a good time to start spreading lawn fertilizers, too.) Of course, this might be all wrong for your zone... so ask your local garden people.

As for my early gardening experience, I wish I'd thought to cover the plot with black plastic to kill the grass, and then just till it in. I actually dug the top 3 inches of the garden off and tossed it into the compost bin. It would have been MUCH easier to just till it all in.

And don't even think about double-digging, unless you're a masochist. Double-digging is a technique where you dig a trench, 18 to 24 inches deep and a foot across, reserving the soil outside the plot. Then, digging another, tossing the dirt from the second trench into the first one, and repeating until you've gotten to the last row, and then you toss the dirt from the first trench in.

In cooking terms, it's sort of like folding something into a batter. In real terms, it's backbreaking work, and not for anyone, fit or unfit. Rent a rototiller. (Though, unless you rent a big huge heavy one, you'll probably have to dig some anyway.) Till the soil of your bed first before you add any amendments (fertilizer, compost, what-have-you), to a depth of 18-24 inches ideally, and then add the amendments, and till again. Your goal is to get light, airy soil, sort of the consistency of sifted flour. Once you till it, try not to walk on it at all. The lighter the soil, the better the roots of the plants will be able to move through it. Walking on it will compact it.

Experts say you should get your soil tested to figure out the pH. You can buy a kit to test it yourself, or you can supposedly send a soil sample off to some state office or whatever -- obviously, I've never done this -- and they'll give you a breakdown of your soil's condition, and what special amendments you'll need to add.

When you start working the soil, you'll find out consistency of your soil -- either normal, sandy or clay. Sandy is better than clay. If your soil is sandy, it means you'll be watering it more, since the water will drain away more quickly. Clay means the water won't be apt to penetrate, and your plants (and you) will have a tough time moving through the dirt. Both sandy and clay soils can be fixed over time by adding lots of organic matter, compost.

(If you want to avoid the whole mess, and as a first-time gardener, I wouldn't blame you, you might want to consider going with raised beds... what you'd do is layout one or more rectangles, 4-6 feet across plus the 8 or 16 inches... then buy enough 4x4 or 8x8 lumber to build boxes 18 to 24 inches deep, with no tops or bottoms. Reenforce the corners with steel L-bars) When I built mine, I put a layer of sand at the bottom, about 3 inches deep, and then a mixture of top soil, compost and peat moss. Raised beds means no tilling, and also less bending when it comes to planting and maintaining the bed.)

When you plan out your garden, plan the rows so that the middle of the row is no more than an arm's length from a path or the edge of the garden, so that you can still work and maintain the garden without walking on, and compacting, the prime planting space

Earthworms are good. Ladybugs are good. Preying Mantises are good. Bees are good. Almost everything else is bad.

If you can't get grass clippings to cover your garden bed, try to get some hay. Stay away from straw, because it still has the seeds (or is that the other way around?) Leaves will work in a pinch, but the wind tends to blow them all over the place.

If I were you, once you get to your place, I'd figure out where and how big the garden will be, taking into account the shade nearby trees will cast on the ground (which will be hard because their leaves will be long gone by then), stake it out, and then cover the area with black plastic, which will kill the grass and any other weeds. In the springtime, the black plastic will heat up in the sun and thaw the ground sooner than the rest of your yard.

Let's see... what else? Most tomatoes take 80 days from germination to first fruit. In my zone (zone 6/7), that means the heat-tolerant crops, like tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers and watermelon go in around May 1st.

Besides mint, another invasive plant, though strictly not culinary, are morning glories. Plant these in your yard once, and they'll be with you for the rest of your natural life.

I forgot to mention before about early season crops is mescalun. Plant it early, and within 3 weeks (barring any late frosts), you'll be eating stuff out of your own garden!

Sorry for the brain-drain here. Don't really want to overwealm you!

Edited November 22, 2002 by DaveFaris (log)

[Nick]

I have to get to work in the shop and will try to write more later, but for now I'd say pay attention to what DaveFaris has had to say, and add that considering where you are that it's too late in the year to do anything with the soil, including covering it with plastic or newspapers.

It's really easy to get fired up at the prospect of having your first garden, get carried away, and then do things that later on will make you wish you had given things a little more thought before beginning.

Patience is a key word when it comes to growing things. Perserverance is another.

[Hopleaf]

Dave, don't worry about overwhelming me. I'm soaking it all in and keeping your (and others) input for later reference. About the beds, do you construct them and fill with soil mixture right over the existing grass? I'm assuming that's the case since you suggested it as a good alterntive for first time gardeners. The idea of a raised bed really appeals from an aesthetic standpoint since I could then put down some flagstone in the pathways.

Nick, you're saying that it's too late to do the newspaper thing (that is if I go without the raised beds)?

[stellabella]

1] you might consider planting herbs seperately because many of them are perennial and ornamental. a healthy, established rosemary bush is green and attractive year-round.

2] my compost pens are IDENTICAL to snowangel's; keep them out of direct sun, and away from the house and any place where you might socialize--they shouldn't stink, but they might not make for a good view. if it gets dry next summer, run the hose over them occasionally--they need heat and moisture to work. turn them with a pitchfork occasionally.

3] you'll have a lawn? hopleaf, promise me you'll NEVER bag leaves--i might have to smack you--you're a gardener now. if you've got a lawn, you can compost--throw your leaves on the compost, or better yet, get a mulching mower--instead of raking, mow, and the macerated leaf bits will work themselves right back into the lawn--food for your grass--it needs love, too.

4] i compost everything. there seems to be some debate about it. one botanist and avid gardener friend swears that all food can go into the compost. moldy cheese is fine--the mold helps the decomposition process. meat is fine--the biggest problem with it is attracting critters, which i happen to like. but if that gets to be a problem with your neighbors, don't do it.

5] my husband and i had a garden epiphany this summer--we spent five weeks away but couldn't bear the thought of no tomatoes, so we planted late and small [a departure for us, as we have had as many as 68 tomato plants]. we put in 12 pepper plants, varied, and four tomatoes, and mulched them VERY heavily with grass clippings--religious mulching, obsessive mulching. well, those four plants produced bushels of tomatoes--big gorgeous juicy beautiful fruits--and the garden was SO manageable.

good luck to you--you'll love it. get dirty. see if you find any buried treasures in your yard!

[Hopleaf]

Stellabella, I most definitely will get a mulching mower (had planned to). But how does that work if you want to add grass clippings to your compost bins, grab a rake? And I won't bag our leaves. My new community comes by to pick them up curbside, all you have to do is rake them into the street. I figure I can use as much as I want for my garden and if I have too much (there're quite a few trees on our property as well as on neighboring properties) I can always just rake them into the street.

About the composting bins, the critters...with a young-un I don't want any rabies (sp?) shots in her future. Wonder if doing something with chicken wire will be enough to keep them there critters at bay? Guess I'll find out. I thought I could create something that might have a door on the top and then just dump my compostable waste (kitchen refuse, grass clippings and leaves) in there.

So, what can I start from seed over the winter? Rail Paul mentioned lettuce and tomatoes, but I'm really into the peppers and wonder if I can start those as well?