Payscale for Professional Cooks

[Steve Klc]

And, just in case it's necessary to remind anyone, every day people are considering paying out $30,000 to attend career-changing cooking schools like an FCI to "pursue their dream"--or contemplating attending the CIA and incurring the student loan debt load of a typical university or private college education--just to enter a marketplace like this. This is where the long term implications of a faulty premise--based on a faulty, misleading model--may be felt--and down the road, Nick, I'd suspect it will affect fine dining much more than foodservice--widening the gap between the two and making eating well or at a high level much more expensive and much less likely to be within the grasp of eGulleteers. What effect better compensating those who work in "fine dining" will have on this remains to be seen. But Rail Paul's hypothesis for the future, that "it's a terrible model for creative, challenging, and, yes, expensive, dining" seems to ring true for me--except that the hundreds of people wouldn't be executing them as precisely as one might think, like everything else on this thread.

NeroW--you focus on something implicit in Chefette's original post--what do you think would happen to cooking schools if the real word got out? As I've advised prospective students before, the key is not to talk to the happy but stupid self-justifying current students at any school--but to find out where the graduates are a few years out of school--see how happy they are then and what kind of hourly wage they are pulling down. Or, more likely, if they're even still cooking.

Dave--I think you support chefette by saying the American public will get the cuisine it deserves and supports--which is perhaps why she started this thread! You also support her by observing that there will always be a ready supply of less talented under-experienced workers to take their place--that's exactly what's been happening and the issue is--do you think that bodes well for the future of cooking and fine dining? And you have 3 current pros who are in a direct position to know precisely about salaries and hourly wages chiming in so far--and I hope more will add their thoughts so it would seem less easily dismissed by calling it anecdotal.

[NeroW]

every day people are considering paying $30,000 to attend career-changing cooking schools like an FCI to "pursue their dream"--or contemplating attending the CIA and incurring the student loan debt load of a typical university or private college education--just to enter a marketplace like this.

The key is not to talk to the happy but stupid current students at any school--but to find out where the graduates are a few years out of school--see how happy they are then and what kind of hourly wage they are pulling down. Or, more likely, if they're even still cooking.

Thanks for the advice. I did speak with one graduate, who now works for Wolfgang Puck. So I guess that's not representative of the general population. I've already incurred the student loan debt load of a creative writing degree: how's that for 2 big winners!

[chefette]

Well, the information I put out about salaries is based on my own experience.

I did a quick search and found the following great jobs

Landsdown Resort Cook position Wage $8.65 - $12.65 per hour

Sous Chef Benchmark Properties Racine, Wisc Wage $10.00 - $15.00 per hour

Relief Baker, Chaminade, Santa Cruz, CA Wage $11.00 - $14.08 per hour Shift Day Hours Part Time

PM Display Chef Chaminade, Santa Cruz, CA Wage $12.00 per hour

EXECUTIVE CHEF, SOUS CHEF

Loie, 128 S. 19th St., Philadelphia PA 19103. Salary: $35-85K/yr.

Cooks

Maison Culinaire Inc., 12220 Quorn Ln., Reston VA 20191. Salary: $10-15/hr.

PASTRY CHEF

Charlotte’s Bake Shoppe, 6246 Pleasant Valley Rd., El Dorado CA 95623 Salary: $10/hr.

PREP COOK

Hotel Sofitel San Francisco Bay, 223 Twin Dolphin Dr., Redwood City CA 94065 Salary: $10.90.

SOUS CHEF, BROILER COOK

La Casa del Zorro Desert Resort, 3845 Yaqui Pass Rd., Borrego Springs CA 92004. Salary: Sous Chef: $45K/yr; Broiler Cook: $15.

EXECUTIVE CHEF

Rock Bottom Brewery, 9627 E. County Line Rd., Englewood CO 80112. Days & Hours: 55-60 hours/wk. Salary: $45-50K/yr to start.

PASTRY CHEF

Max Downtown, 185 Asylum St., Hartford CT 06103. Salary: $32-45K/yr.

BAKER

Bridge Café Bakery, 7 Riverside Ave., Westport CT 06880. Salary: $9-10/hr.

SUSHI CHEF

The Graycliff, 122 Moonachie Ave., Moonachie NJ 07074. Salary: $8.50-10.00+.

HEAD BAKER

Rats Restaurant, Badger Bread Company, 16 Fairgrounds Rd., Hamilton NJ 08619. Salary: $30K/yr.

WORKING CHEF

Gipsy Trail Club, Carmel NY. Mail: 33 W. 67th St., New York NY 10023. Salary: $25K/yr.

SOUS CHEF

Doma Café and Gallery, 17 Perry St., New York NY 10014. Salary: $10-12/hr

LINE COOK (GRILL/SAUTE), SOUS CHEF

Blue Grotto Restaurant, 1576 Third Ave., New York NY 10128. Salary: $25-40K/yr.

PRODUCTION SAUCIER/TOURNANT, BANQUET COOK

The Pierre – A Four Seasons Hotel, 2 E. 61st St., New York NY 10021. Salary: $14-19.

Kinda makes you think twice about eating out.

Where is Tony Bourdain on all of this????? Care to add a little anecdotal evidence of your own to this thread? Or do all the chefs and cooks you know command $75K and more a year?

[Steve Klc]

Nero--good luck paying that back. I hope you marry well. But, kidding aside, you are or will be in the very near future in the perfect position to comment on this--in terms of how your expectations have matched up to the reality of the workplace--and what role your school played in that process. Yours will be a voice worth hearing from as other career changers contemplate attending your school. You talked to someone working for Puck and saw what might be possible--Chefette worked for Jacques Torres at Le Cirque during and after she went to FCI and had her eyes opened--both of you are the exceptions to the rule. Not everyone got that opportunity.

And please realize about some of the jobs Chefette just posted--especially the salaried or management level ones--we're talking minimum 60-75 hours per week for that 32-35K!

[chefette]

It is very tough to get out from under the student loan debt on $30K a year

But working 12-14 hours a day you don't really have alot of clothing or other costs.

[chefette]

Not meaning to be socially unacceptable here, but the people who are taking these jobs are primarily hispanic, or Vietnamese, or other recent immigrant waves. And yes, they are taking the jobs, and they are taking them at rock bottom wages and doing them well. Not good for anyone involved but the capitalist (oops there I go again) owners.

Like I said, we do not have kitchen spanish because kitchen workers thought they needed linguistics.

And yes, it is fun to cook for your friends when you feel like it, isn't it?

[Belmont3]

Steve KLC, are you saying that schools such as CIA and FCI are sending overqualified students into the saturated workforce expecting higher then average wages? If that is the case some of the burden of this would fall back on the schools that require such large ammounts of money to attend. These stundents then need to find jobs that they can live on and then pay of the education. This kind of goes full circle.

[NeroW]

Thank you everyone for your honesty and advice. Today is a discouraging day; I know not every day will be thus. I printed out some of what Matt Seeber said about what a culinary school application "should" look like--he's totally right--and hung it on the bathroom mirror, above the stove, etc. I will look at it when I get discouraged. Helps to have a sense of humor firmly intact. BTW, I'm going to the Cordon Bleu.

Edited January 21, 2003 by NeroW (log)

[chefette]

Yes, I believe that what Steve Klc is saying is that Cooking schools such as the CIA, FCI, ICE, NECI, etc, etc who are charging upwards of $20K per year to teach you culinary skills are rapaciously hoodwinking an astoundingly poorly informed and willing public (see how you all refuse to believe these salaries?) into thinking that they can follow their dreams, they can realize their passion for cooking, be a professional chef and make as much take home pay (if not more) as they do in their unfulfilling professional lives. They have to charge you alot because they have nice buildings and offices and fill them up with nice cooking equipment (which is not cheap) and they need to pay dividends to a luminous board of grand chefs that we all recognize. This does not leave that much to pay the instructors (again, we are back to the $30-$40K a year jobs). But naturally in the 6 months or so that they have you they might as well show you all the bells and whistles and fun cool stuff. Can't exactly leave you peeling potatoes in the walk in all that time and stirring chicken stock. So, yes, you arrive out in this big bad world jammed full of skills that you will rarely if ever get to use. Guess its just like tsking geometry and advanced placement physics in High school.

[Steve Klc]

Belmont3 I'm very comfortable saying that schools often are not being completely honest, completely forthcoming with their prospective students in terms of the success and salaries and long term professional viability of their graduates. It's self-defeating of them to do so, for it would just drive students away. I do think schools do a decent job reciting the "you won't earn much in the beginning" line but I don't think they do a realistic job qualifying or quantifying long term earnings--which for me is the more grievous error since students go into such debt to attend either school.

If I were a prospective student all over again--I'd do a serious cost-benefit analysis and consider all sorts of factors that the cooking schools would not be eager to discuss--like I'd consider working for free and travelling to experience the best, an alternative Michael Laiskonis suggested on another career thread that it might be better to spend your tuition moneys travelling to Spain and France and New York and eating at the best shops and restaurants and developing a sense of palate, etc. a sense of appreciation for what is the best and why. You aren't taught any of that in school from underpaid, underexposed instructors. I also believe this is another tangent, another rationale why Chefette started this thread. I'd want to know the percentage of a school's graduates who are working in their profession 3, 5, 10 years down the road, what they're doing, how many have been driven away and why--and I'd want their names to talk to them.

Another issue is just how far ahead are you, having gone to cooking school, and just how long it will take to dig yourself out of the tuition hole you have dug for yourself.

I do not feel schools generally turn out "over-qualified" students--I don't have that high opinion of the job they do, the relevance of their curriculum and the skill and experience of their instructors vs. the value of real "learning on the job" under good chefs and pastry chefs; as to over-saturation, again, I think that is addressed by the numbers of skilled positions in kitchens, the salary level vs. the percentage of people who have worked their way up in kitchens--the prep cooks and dishwashers and runners who could never afford to shell out $30K in the first place--who have those jobs and that cooking school graduates hope to supplant. More likely a cooking school graduate will either work in a restaurant doing unglamorous prep, make next to nothing and speak Spanish just like Malawry (see her TDG entries) or take a job in foodservice, doing high volume in repetitive fashion with little connection to the fine dining scene which may have prompted them to go to school in the first place. The issue, as I see it, is getting some good information about how long it might take to move beyond that role--and hopefully somewhere along the way you figure out or someone tells you whether you have what it takes or not. All I'm after is enabling prospective students to have more informed consent.

Nero--it's never discouraging if some seemingly harsh or skeptical statements help you think about things down the road and make more informed choices--however they turn out.

[Dave the Cook]

I think your indignation should be aimed at the Food Network (and even people like our beloved Bourdain), for romanticizing the occupation. But this is self-correcting, I think. The dilletantes will clear out, won't they? -- although it will take a few years.

At the low end of the pay scale, it would seem that the job requirements must not be too difficult, if a minimum wage, ESL worker can fill it adequately. If you are a degreed cook, why would you want this job? If this is the only job available, why would you want to be a cook?

The danger is that exceptional talents (and chefette, I've seen your work and include you in this category) will be discouraged and leave the industry. This is sad, but you know what? I'd like to write a great novel, and I'm pretty sure I have the talent to do it. Unfortunately, I have no right to expect to be supported while it's in process.

[Rail Paul]

I ran searches on monster.com and on hot.jobs to see what was on the market for pastry chefs. The simple answer is not much. Hot jobs had a whopping three jobs (one in the UK for EEC residents only), monster had about fifty, but included sous chefs, executive chefs, etc.

I searched the St Louis Post Dispatch for pastry chefs, found no ads. One for a "pantry cook / pastry assistant" at the University Club. Line cook wages were $10, and 10-12 at other places. Hostesses and banquet managers at the place with the $10 cook were offered $12-$15.

Also searched the Greensburg PA Tribune Review. No pastry positions, three cook positions, no wages noted.

The analogy of Chefette's position to Karl Marx is very apt. Marx believed that the unique contributions of the worker-persons would be lost as machinery made workers interchangeable and without individual value (the lumpenproleteriat). If restaurants can buy machined, pre-made desserts from Chatterly's or Blini, and sell them for $7-15 a slice, and the buyer doesn't care, why should the restaurant care? If the customer doesn't throw it back, pocket the profits and go on with it.

Maybe this is a consequence of the dumbing down of taste?

(edited to remove typos and avoid Wilfrid's wrath with a slight mis-statement of Marxist theory)

Edited January 21, 2003 by Rail Paul (log)

[Belmont3]

I wish I would of asked more questions and found this site before decisions had been made. I understand what you say Steve, and it makes complete sense. I will try and do both, educate my palate and my mind while attending school. I did not have the visions of the 100k a year job, but that of doing a job that which may pay less, but one in which you are completly passionate about. I would hope that 10 years from now, if I am fortunate enough to have my own place, I will be able to talk of the passion that still burns.

[Rail Paul]

I think your indignation should be aimed at the Food Network (and even people like our beloved Bourdain), for romanticizing the occupation. But this is self-correcting, I think. The dilletantes will clear out, won't they? -- although it will take a few years.

Same experience happened in journalism after watergate. J-schools were flooded, and people went out to find a barren job market.

Same experience happened in the Catholic church with people lining up to be priests in the 1960s, when they felt they could change the world. In one of my former companies, we'd hire 100-200 elementary ed grads yearly who graduated to find there were NO jobs anywhere. So, they went and processed claims or rectified billings, made double what they'd make as a teacher, and hated it.

I'm of the (cynical) belief that your job should give you money, and your avocations should enrich your life. If you're in the small group where your job does both, that's great. Treasure it, because few others have that joy.

[Dave the Cook]

The analogy of Chefette's position to Karl Marx is very apt. Marx believed that the unique contributions of the personswould be lost as machinery made workers interchangeable and without individual value (the lumpenproleteriat). If restaurants can buy machined, pre-made desserts from Chatterly's or Blini, and sell them for $7 a slice, and the buyer doesn't care, why should the restaurant care? If the customer doesn't throw it back, pocket the profits and go on with it. 

True. Even if you don't have a machine, you have $6-7/hour drones that work to carefully designed culinary blueprints -- in other words, chain restaurants.

Same experience happened in journalism after watergate. J-schools were flooded, and people went out to find a barren job market.

I was going to mention this (I was in J-school at the time but moved on). And we can see the results today -- most news reporting sucks. Not a good omen for the future of fine dining.

I'm of the (cynical) belief that your job should give you money, and your avocations should enrich your life. If you're in the small group where your job does both, that's great. Treasure it, because few others have that joy.

Agreed.

[ngatti]

Nick--what do you pay your staff hourly and how in line are these numbers?

Hi Steve,

I have two sous chefs that are paid hourly. They are rated on a 40 hour a week salary (they are never paid less than 40 hours). Their overtime is a sliding *descending* scale. Bottom line is that both earn in excess of 50k per year.

Line cooks (4) all currently earn 14.00/hr. This is what I pay my pantry, grill and sautee people. My utility staff (6) all earn at least 10.00/hour. Some very senior people earn 12-13/hour.

My utility staff is the heart of my kitchen (prep, cleaning, general infrastructure). For the want of nail etc... This is my philosophy. Pay well and keep staff turnover to a minimum. Ninety percent of staff have been with me for at least three years, some have been here over 10. My two sous chefs have been with me going on five years. One sous chef is interviewing at another private club. I expect the going rate for a new hire exec chef to be 80k + bennies which may or may not include a car.

I have been very fortunate.

Nick

[ngatti]

Weeeelllll . . . I'm afraid the school I was accepted to is a little misleading about this aspect.  In their propaganda (the initial "interview"/sales pitch) they hand out a little piece of paper, which claims that exec. chefs who hold a degree from this institution can expect--no, can command $350K/yr.  They also claim that a sous chef can expect upper-70s, and they have similar, apparently lofty, projections for other kitchen positions. 

350k/year???

The only guy who was *working* for somebody else that I ever recall coming close to that figure was Patrick Clark (I once heard 500K mentioned in connection with his name). But this was at Tavern which grosses well in excess of 20 million a year.

Nick

[Basildog]

But this was at Tavern which grosses well in excess of 20 million a year. 

....and there you have it.You can only pay the big bucks if your taking big bucks.My Sous chef Dave could earn more elsewhere, and i would like to pay him more, but we are limited by the numbers we do.

[Rail Paul]

The $350/k a year number ought to make anybody suspicious.

There was a scam (probably still is) in which people with veterans benefits, START grants, etc would be seduced into special training programs which would provide them with high paying jobs. About 8 seconds after the government loan payment cleared, the program came to an end. Repeat every few months

Students didn't get an education, promoters got the money, taxpayers got the shaft.

[Steve Klc]

Nick--it also seems like your people are very fortunate to have you. Now, my question to you is how representative of the industry do you feel your system is, and both the compensation and loyalty you instill in your people? Everybody over $10/hr and you probably taking a pay cut or turning back a bonus in order to do it?

[wingding]

Many middle sized restaurants in N.Y will not offer more than $35K a year for the pastry chef position.This figure hasn't budged for the past 5 years.This may be an economic necessity,given proportional dessert sales and the cost of running a business in Manhattan,but it's hardly encouraging when you're a few years down the road.In my experience,the actual number of people who have graduated culinary school and stayed in restaurants for more than 6 MONTHS is pretty miniscule.

[GordonCooks]

Not meaning to be socially unacceptable here, but the people who are taking these jobs are primarily hispanic, or Vietnamese, or other recent immigrant waves.  And yes, they are taking the jobs, and they are taking them at rock bottom wages and doing them well.  Not good for anyone involved but the capitalist (oops there I go again) owners.   

Like I said, we do not have kitchen spanish because kitchen workers thought they needed linguistics. 

And yes, it is fun to cook for your friends when you feel like it, isn't it?

This may not be news to everyone, but I was shocked to find this out. It's a very common practice for the servers in an many Thai/Vietnamese restaurants to revert their tips to the house. Many are paid just a salary.

[ngatti]

Nick--it also seems like your people are very fortunate to have you.  Now, my question to you is how representative of the industry do you feel your system is, and both the compensation and loyalty you instill in your people?  Everybody over $10/hr and you probably taking a pay cut or turning back a bonus in order to do it?

Yes Steve, I tend to pay 1-3 dollars more per hour for general staff. The two sous chefs probably earn about 10k more than they would in a comparable luxury hotel. The general level of benefits also tends to be quite a bit better. Medical (employees contribute to this) and life insurance, long term disability insurance (a very valuable benefit), 401K, and paid vacations of from 1-4 weeks are comparable to the unionized luxury hotel that I'd worked in.

The higher end clubs do tend to operate differently. Employees are more likely to be treated as old and valued retainers rather than mere faceless interchangeable kitchen 'parts'.

I don't think these experiences translate well to real world free-standing restaurants. Private club F&B ops are subsidized by member dues and are in business to satisfy their collective memberships. Something that can be quite at odds with the profit motive. Hence the better pay and benefit level.

Having said all this, I do have quite a bit of experience in Hotels of various service levels and restaurants over the past 25 years. the landscape vis a vis jobs and pay has been a constant evolutionary dynamic. From CIA grads being hired right from school as Exec Chefs back in the mid-70s at salaries in the mid twenties (a princely sum back then) to the current glut, as culinary schools (with the help and urging of the ACF perhaps) pump out the kitchen fodder.

Remember there was a time (pre early 80s resto revolution) when there may have been a small handful of Culinary schools in existence. When I was doing research for culinary school there was only CIA and New York City Community College (now NY Tech) as contenders for a serious culinary education. At 24 years of age I was considered pretty old. I opted for neither not being able to afford the 10K at CIA or the time for a night school education at NYCCC. I took the back of the house, bottom up route; an option which I feel is much less viable today given the current state of the business.

disclaimer: I have never in my life turned down a bonus or taken a pay cut.

Nick

[jeniac42]

Wow. I just wanted to say I'm very glad I stumbled across this thread. It's given me a lot to think about.

I've been torn for a while over whether I should go to culinary school or just work in restaurants. The information here makes me think that working my way up is a better way to go; but then, if everyone else is getting a diploma, might that not become a de facto requirement to work in fine dining places? I mean, if you've got all these graduates willing to work for $8/hour because they can't find anything better, why would you employ someone without a piece of paper from a school? (That's slightly overstating things, but it's a concern I have.)

What I haven't been able to figure out yet, in spite of reading a lot about it, is just how hard it is to break into the business without going to school. I think that's something I'd have to try to do myself to really understand it. I mean, I already see, just from waiting tables, that I have a few connections in the Columbus restaurant scene; I can only imagine that working in a kitchen would be the same way, and networking's good, right?

I'm one of those bored IT people. I hate doing what I'm doing, and I want to cook. (Of course, now I'm not sure if pastry might be something I'd want to do... oh, decisions). I harbor no delusions that I will ever make as much in a restaurant as I do right now as a computer consultant type. But I think that if you're doing something for 12 hours a day it should at least not cause you to want to gouge your eyes out 99% of the time. I've tried the work is for money thing and it makes me miserable, which perhaps reflects poorly on me, but I'd like to try doing something I love.

I have, of course, the idealistic notion of someday owning a restaurant, or at least working for one, where quality and principles and what have you are of the utmost importance. I am a perfectionist at heart and, to give some example, have been known to go in on my free time and clean the restaurant I currently work in for not much financial return.

OK, I've started just rambling now, so I think I'll cut myself off for the time being....

[Jinmyo]

jeniac42, cheflife sucks. But most everything does too and then you die. So if you want to do it, might as well at least give it a try.