Hot & Sour Soup

[Behemoth]

I just checked several of my books. Oddly enough, I found that one author contradicts himself. One book says it originated in Szechuan and the other says North China.

My book "Chinese Gastronomy" doesn't even mention it and it was the source that I expected would give the answer.

Will we ever find the answer?????

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It does mention it, under Szechuan cooking (see page 105, bottom third of the page

[Qing]

It is glad to share one of my personal stories about the Hot and Sour Soup with you. In 1998, I was a hotel management school student in Switzerland, and I went to my first interview to a small Chinese restaurant in Downtown Geneva. That restaurant was called the Confucius’, for the owner Mr. Kung who has Confucius’ ancestry.

After the brief interview, Mr. Kung invited me to have dinner with him. He was so proud for his unique Hot and Sour Soup recipe. First, he showed me the huge soup pot in the kitchen, and I guess it might contain 40 gallons. Then, he told me that according the Confucius’ family tradition, he only made the fresh Hot and Sour Soup once a year. I was so shocked, and asked how could that be? His answer was he made the fresh Hot & Sour Soup at the Chinese New Year’s Eve. After that, he only refills stuffs into the soup pot and simmers it for the whole year. For serving, some amount of pepper was applied, but the sour taste was “Natural” and not come from vinegar.

My school was in the German speaking part of Switzerland, so I don’t speak good French. I missed the chance to work there as a waiter, and I missed the chance to eye witness the incredible procedure. I am not totally believed all of he said, but I don’t think that was BS either. In China, we have the similar tradition to reserve good soup base, pickle broth and even some sauces over very long period. For example, in ShanDong Province, there is a famous restaurant which is serving donkey meat, and the sauce they use is based on the “donkey stock” started brewing hundred years ago.

Maybe Mr. Kung exaggerated his way to preserve H/S soup, but I believe the H/S soup was invented at the same time as Bear Feet, Shark Fin in Northern China. According to the Confucian Analects, they have over two thousand year history. So it is so hard to say which cuisine the H/S comes from, for at that time the major four cuisines systems haven’t been established yet. One thing for sure, the general characters of H/S soup is still follow Northern Chinese taste, especially they use soy sauce heavily.

In Sichuan cuisine, H/S soup sometimes appears lighter on the Soy sauce, so we call it the White H/S soup. In Cantonese Cuisine, Shark Fin soup always like the twin brother from the H/S soup. I was always wondering, one day in the restaurant, a waiter will bring me a bowl of Shark Fin Soup instead the H/S soup by a mistake. Ha…

[hzrt8w]

.....Then, he told me that according the Confucius’ family tradition, he only made the fresh Hot and Sour Soup once a year.  I was so shocked, and asked how could that be? His answer was he made the fresh Hot & Sour Soup at the Chinese New Year’s Eve. After that, he only refills stuffs into the soup pot and simmers it for the whole year. For serving, some amount of pepper was applied, but the sour taste was “Natural” and not come from vinegar.

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This would be like the sour doug in San Francisco. They always save the last batch as the "mother" doug by the end of the shift to seed the doug making the next day. They said that's where the sour taste comes from.

..... In Cantonese Cuisine, Shark Fin soup always like the twin brother from the H/S soup.  I was always wondering, one day in the restaurant, a waiter will bring me a bowl of Shark Fin Soup instead the H/S soup by a mistake. Ha…

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This would be like a dream comes true. The Shark Fin soup (the real one) and H/S soup prices differ by ten fold.

[Jon Tseng]

Thing I always wondered about hot & sour soup... its not hot and its not sour!!!

???

J

[Dejah]

Thing I always wondered about hot & sour soup... its not hot and its not sour!!!

???J

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Maybe it was all a dream...as hzrt said "This would be like a dream comes true. The Shark Fin soup (the real one) and H/S soup prices differ by ten fold."

[Pan]

Thing I always wondered about hot & sour soup... its not hot and its not sour!!!

???

J

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I don't know what to say. It's supposed to be!!!

[hzrt8w]

Thing I always wondered about hot & sour soup... its not hot and its not sour!!!

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Maybe it was all a dream...as hzrt said "This would be like a dream comes true. The Shark Fin soup (the real one) and H/S soup prices differ by ten fold."

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All the host and sour soups I had were indeed hot AND sour. Sometimes maybe NOT AS hot and sour as I would like.

Maybe what Jon had was a shark fin soup???

Jon: Where did you have your "hot and sour" soup?

BTW: In Hong Kong, there is a street-food version of the "shark fin" soup. They are called "shark fin" but of course we all know there is no real shark fin in it. The soup is some kind of soup base with soy sauce, corn starch syrup and shredded chicken meat added.

Edited September 22, 2005 by hzrt8w (log)

[hzrt8w]

This would be like the sour doug in San Francisco.  They always save the last batch as the "mother" doug by the end of the shift to seed the doug making the next day.  They said that's where the sour taste comes from.

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Sorry, I managed to consistently mis-spelled "dough" as "doug". If that's your name, please don't hate me! Sour dough, "Mother" dough, dough making.

[ecr]

The only hot and sour soup I ever had in Sichuan, some 20 years ago (oh dear) was nothing like the stuff you get in the States. It consisted of broth with pork strips, dried chilies, and lots and lots of shredded pickled cabbage (pickled with chile) -- no tofu, lily buds, etc., very little soy. It was very hot and very sour (from the pickle).

And delicious.

[Jon Tseng]

Nah just standard HK-resto type "hot and sour" soup in London

Never really "hot" (in a chilli/la) sense

Occasionally a slight vinegary tang, but nothing I would really call "sour"

And on a relative note... can anyone tell me where to find the "sour" in "sweet and sour"??? OK so it tastes sweet, and there are often some vaguely acidic elements which go in (our family standby is the juice from the tinned pineapples)... but "sour"? naaah....

cheers

J

[Dejah]

And on a relative note... can anyone tell me where to find the "sour" in "sweet and sour"??? OK so it tastes sweet, and there are often some vaguely acidic elements which go in (our family standby is the juice from the tinned pineapples)... but "sour"? naaah....

cheersJ

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Have never used pineapple juice in my sweet 'n' sour sauce. Ours always had vinegar as one of the base ingredients. We did add pineapple chunks if the request if for pineapple sweet and sour spareribs. I think our sauce had a nice balance of sweet and sour taste...at least my customers all said so and loved it.

[jo-mel]

To me, sweet/sour should be almost equal parts of sugar/vinegar. I want the tang there and not a cloyingly sweet aftertaste.

Back to the Hot/Sour Soup ----- I came into this thread with the idea that it was a Northern dish. I guess I said Peking dish early up, but wasn't there a time when Northern, which included Peking, was considered Shandong?

Anyway, after all the research I've been doing, I'm coming to the conclusion that it indeed arose from the West - Sichuan. I guess the final nail was the use of such 'mountain' crops such as lily buds, tree ears, bamboo shoots, and dried mushrooms ------- along with the depth of flavor that you almost always find in Sichuanese cooking, which you can find, in one dish, sweet/sour/salty/hot/ etc. One dish and you find almost all flavors included. Sounds like Hot/Sour Soup.

There were two references to Mandarin Soup which is what you get if you leave the pepper and vinegar out.

I Guess I'm going to have to keep an open mind when it comes to a dish's origin. Lesson learned.

(BUT - I still like my H/S soup to have just black/white pepper and not chili pepper!)

[Qing]

the conclusion that it indeed arose from the West - Sichuan. I guess the final nail was the use of such 'mountain' crops such as lily buds, tree ears, bamboo shoots, and dried mushrooms ------- along with the depth of flavor that you almost always find in Sichuanese cooking, which you can find, in one dish, sweet/sour/salty/hot/ etc. One dish and you find almost all flavors included. Sounds like Hot/Sour Soup.

Wonderful!!!

[jhirshon]

All - I am seeking one of my holy grail recipes - an authentic hot and sour soup that rivals the best i've ever had - that at Mayflower Chinese Restaurant in Milpitas, CA.

This was stingingly hot from white pepper and sour from top-quality Chinese vinegar - who has the ultimate recipe for this - post here and share your secrets! Yes, I know the original recipe calls for blood, we can skip that part, I think.

cheers, JH

[liv4fud]

check out the egci section on hot food- you wouldn't need to go far

[muichoi]

What's wrong with blood?

[jokhm]

I'm not sure where to go with authenticity on hot and sour soup. I get the impression that this is more of a category of soups. Only in the west is it considered THE special chinese soup. Every place in China has some interpretation of what should fit into hot and sour.. for soup. The only thing that comes to mind with regards to Authenticity for this specific soup is that it should look like it does in north America at the standard Chinese resto.. Meaning: white pepper, chilies, dark soy, shredded mushrooms and black cloud ears, shredded pork, some egg dropped in and some vinegar. This being just a quick summary of what comes to mind.

Now I know that if I run into any restaurant in Shanghai or Beijing they will each have a completely different idea of what this soup should be.

So I guess the issue is where did the current north American one come from, and is that source anything specific, or was it just one in a million that became famous abroad?

Very interesting stuff

[jhirshon]

All - I decided to move forward with creating my own version of Suan La Tang, one that (I hope) is both authentic in provenance and taste to its Szechuan roots.

First things first - I decided to use beef as the shredded meat, rather than the customary pork. My understanding of Szechuan cuisine is that beef is the usual choice of meat in that province, as opposed to pork. I've velveted the meat to add some additional savour and flavour prior to using it in the soup.

Second - I added in some shredded Szechuan preserved vegetable, which being both hot and sour, in my opinion complemented the various tastes.

Using the smoky Baoning Szechuan vinegar also added a new dimension of flavour - adding sweetened black vinegar and rice vinegar helped balance out the tastes. Using the dried mushroom soaking liquid also really adds some smoky undertones to the soup.

Adding the garlic and ginger as a minced paste with Shaoxing helped to spread the flavours and avoid fiber in the soup.

Adding heat via white pepper and a ma la effect using freshly-ground Szechuan peppercorns worked well for me - and is far more authentic, as far as I am aware. The original Suan La Tong added heat by 'barbarian' pepper (aka peppercorns), not by the much later to arrive Chili pepper.

I look forward to everyone's comments on this - especially Ms. Dunlop, whom I know frequents this forum.

cheers, JH

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The Hirshon Szechuan Hot and Sour Soup

Ingredients:

1 garlic clove

1 tsp ginger root (about 2 slices)

¼ pound ribeye steak, velveted:

Slice the beef into shreds (partially freezing the meat helps a lot). Be sure to cut across the grain of the beef.

To marinate the beef: use 1 tsp of light soy sauce, 1 tsp of Shaoxing wine, 1 tsp of cornstarch and 1/2 tsp of ground white pepper.

Mix well. Set aside for about 30 minutes before cooking.

Heat a wok to very high heat. Add 6 tblsp of peanut oil, allow oil to heat through thoroughly, then add beef shreds. Cook until slightly pink, then drain and reserve the beef. Don’t overcook it!

1 ½ Tbsp soy sauce

¼ cup bamboo shoots, shredded

5 dried shiitake mushrooms, top-quality

1 cup mushroom soaking liquid

10 dried lily buds (also called golden needles)

12 dried tree ear fungus (also called cloud ears)

4 cups homemade chicken broth

1 Tbsp Shaoxing

2 Tbsp Baoning Vinegar

1 Tbsp. Rice Vinegar

1 Tbsp. Sweetened Black Vinegar

2 Tbsp cornstarch, mixed with 4 Tbsp. water

½ cup diced firm tofu

2 Tbsp. finely shredded Szechuan Preserved Vegetable

3 sliced green onions

2 eggs

3 Tbsp toasted sesame oil (Kadoya brand preferred)

¾ tsp freshly ground white pepper

½ teaspoon freshly ground szechuan peppercorn

Directions:

(1) Soak mushrooms cloud ear and lily flowers separately in hot water for 25 to 30 minutes or until soft. Reserve mushroom liquid in amount specified above, discard any sand at bottom of bowl. Next remove stems from mushrooms; discard and thinly slice the caps. Pick off tough ends of cloud ear; discard ends; coarse chop cloud ear. Remove tough ends of lily flowers; cut flowers in half. Set aside until ready to begin cooking. Heat the chicken broth.

(2) Mince the garlic and ginger with the shaoxing into a paste. Shred the bamboo shoots. Combine the cornstarch and the water. Lightly beat the eggs.

(3) Add the beef and the soy sauce to the heated stock, cook for 1 minute more.

(4) Add bamboo shoots, shiitakes, lily buds, Szechuan Preserved Vegetable and cloud ears, stir quickly for 1 minute.

(5) Stir in chicken broth, soy sauce, shaoxing paste and Baoning/Black Vinegars.

(6) Stir cornstarch/water mix one last time and add it to the soup.

(7) Add the tofu and bring the soup to a boil.

(8) Turn the heat to low, add the green onions.

(9) Add the beaten eggs in a slow stream, stirring several times.

(10) Turn off the heat and add the sesame oil, rice vinegar, szechuan and white pepper. Season to taste and serve immediately.

Edited June 20, 2006 by jhirshon (log)

[Dejah]

All - I decided to move forward with creating my own version of Suan La Tang, one that (I hope) is both authentic in provenance and taste to its Szechuan roots.

I look forward to everyone's comments on this - especially Ms. Dunlop, whom I know frequents this forum.

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It's great that you decided to create your own version of Suan La Tang.

My only suggestions, jhirshon, is to TEST your recipes before posting.

For example, did you check to see if 1 cup of mushroom soaking liquid plus 4 cups chicken stock is sufficient for the amount of ingredients you are adding? Do you realize how big wood ears become once they are rehydrated?

I have always been adamant about "NO SUGAR!" in my hot 'n'sour soup, so sweetened black vinegar would not be in my recipe.

As for chopping the cloud ears, I would thinly slice them so they are the same as the lily buds, bamboo shoots, and mushrooms.

Szechuan preserved vegetables is an authentic ingredient for hot 'n' sour soup.

I hope you will make this recipe you created and report back on the results.

[jhirshon]

A tweaked version of my previous recipe - this worked better for me.

cheers, JH

The Hirshon Szechuan Hot and Sour Soup

Ingredients:

1 garlic clove

1 tsp ginger root (about 2 slices)

¼ pound ribeye steak, velveted:

Slice the beef into shreds (partially freezing the meat helps a lot). Be sure to cut across the grain of the beef.

To marinate the beef: use 1 tsp of light soy sauce, 1 tsp of Shaoxing wine, 1 tsp of cornstarch and 1/2 tsp of ground white pepper.

Mix well. Set aside for about 30 minutes before cooking.

Heat a wok to very high heat. Add 6 tblsp of peanut oil, allow oil to heat through thoroughly, then add beef shreds. Cook until slightly pink, then drain and reserve the beef. Don’t overcook it!

1 ½ Tbsp soy sauce

¼ cup bamboo shoots, shredded

5 dried shiitake mushrooms, top-quality

1 cup mushroom soaking liquid

10 dried lily buds (also called golden needles)

4 dried tree ear fungus (also called cloud ears) or 1 tsp. dried pre-sliced

4 cups homemade chicken broth

1 Tbsp Shaoxing

1 Tbsp Baoning Vinegar

1 Tbsp Chinkiang Vinegar

1 Tbsp. Rice Vinegar

1 Tbsp cornstarch, mixed with 2 Tbsp. water

½ cup diced firm tofu

2 Tbsp. finely shredded Szechuan Preserved Vegetable

3 sliced green onions

1 egg

1 Tbsp toasted sesame oil (Kadoya brand preferred) or to taste

2 tsp freshly ground white pepper

1 teaspoon freshly ground szechuan peppercorn

Hot Sauce to taste

Directions:

(1) Soak mushrooms cloud ear and lily flowers separately in hot water for 25 to 30 minutes or until soft. Reserve mushroom liquid in amount specified above, discard any sand at bottom of bowl and combine with chicken stock. Next remove stems from mushrooms; discard and thinly slice the caps. Pick off tough ends of cloud ear; discard ends; slice cloud ears thinly. Remove tough ends of lily flowers; cut flowers in half. Set aside until ready to begin cooking. Heat the chicken broth.

(2) Mince the garlic and ginger with the shaoxing into a paste. Shred the bamboo shoots. Combine the cornstarch and the water. Lightly beat the eggs.

(3) Add the beef and the soy sauce to the heated stock, cook for 1 minute more.

(4) Add bamboo shoots, shiitakes, lily buds, Szechuan Preserved Vegetable and cloud ears, stir quickly for 1 minute.

(5) Stir in chicken/mushroom broth, shaoxing paste and Baoning/Chinkiang Vinegars.

(6) Stir cornstarch/water mix one last time and add it to the soup.

(7) Add the tofu and bring the soup to a boil.

(8 ) Turn the heat to low, add the green onions.

(9) Add the beaten eggs in a slow stream, stirring several times.

(10) Turn off the heat and add the sesame oil, rice vinegar, szechuan and white pepper. Season to taste with hot sauce and serve immediately.

[Dejah]

I still say test your recipe, that is, COOK IT, before posting.

I can probably offer three or four suggestions, but I think I'll let YOU figure them out by cooking the soup and reporting back.

[hzrt8w]

I concur. Cooking is an iteration process - iterate through actually cooking the dish. One cannot develop and enhance a recipe by a thought process or by other people's say-so alone. I often see multiple websites posting the same recipe on something. Fancy fonts and banners and credits are all different, but the contents are identical. I don't know who is copying from whom. The recipes don't work just the same.

And I want to see pictures.

[jo-mel]

I concur.  Cooking is an iteration process - iterate through actually cooking the dish.  One cannot develop and enhance a recipe by a thought process or by other people's say-so alone.  I often see multiple websites posting the same recipe on something.  Fancy fonts and banners and credits are all different, but the contents are identical.  I don't know who is copying from whom.  The recipes don't work just the same.

And I want to see pictures. 

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As a fund raiser, a group of AFS parents had a "Dumpling Orgy" dinner for 50 or so people. The dumplings were world wide and I passed the recipes out -- each recipe made by several separate people. NONE turned out the same! Same recipe -- different results!

Pictures DO help!

[Ben Hong]

[-- each recipe made by several separate people. NONE turned out the same! Same recipe -- different results!

Pictures DO help!

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I do not often comment on other people's recipes for this reason. I will comment here that cooking is not a theoretical and academic paper exercise. I know my ingredients well enough to mentally blend them when I read a recipe. To tell the truth, some of the posted recipes do not deserve my comments.

(Please excuse the arrogance. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa)

Edited June 23, 2006 by Ben Hong (log)

[Fat Guy]

What are the key flavors of hot & sour soup? A restaurant near me in New York City makes it with no meat and it tastes pretty much like hot & sour soup with meat. So I'm happy to cook a meatless version, but I'd like to avoid a long ingredients list. I'm looking for a simple distillation of the key flavors.