Difference between coffee and espresso?

[Ashen]

No sugar for me unless I am having a Cafe Cubano.     The stall is long gone but there used to be Cuban guy selling coffee at one of the farmers markets here and he would also make you a Cubano  if you wanted.  He actually added the raw sugar right inside the filter basket with the grounds  before pulling the shot. 

[paulraphael]

Just to keep it simple, there is exactly one definition of espresso: coffee produced by forcing hot water through coffee grounds at very high pressure, typically 9 atmospheres.

 

There's a bit of wiggle room with the pressure, but if it's much lower than that it's not espresso. For example, a "moka pot" aka "stovetop espresso maker" can make good coffee, but it's not espresso. These contraptions produce about 1.5 atmospheres of pressure. The result doesn't resemble the flavor or viscosity of the real thing. The pressure requirement isn't arbitrary; a major part of what characterizes espresso is that the high pressure emulsifies the oils from the coffee bean. This creates the syrupy mouthfeel. 

 

Other factors that have been mentioned—grind size, water temperature, etc.—are incidental to the process. You need a fine grind size to make the process work, and uniform grind to make it work well, but the pressure is what makes it espresso. The correct water temperature (which can vary from 196°F to 205°F) is important for dialing in the right flavor, but this is no different from other coffee processes, in principle. 

 

There is absolutely no correlation between roast and espresso. The idea of an "espresso roast" is a con. It was a way of convincing people they could simulate the taste of real espresso by brewing coffee with burnt beans. Most 3rd wave coffee roasters don't even go anywhere near the 2nd crack in the roasting process, because they want you to be able to taste the beans. Even traditionalists in Italy ... their dark-roasted espresso is usually what we'd call a "city" or "full city" roast in the US (medium roasts). Nowhere near black and oily. If you want to taste the full flavor and origin character of the coffee, you need a light or medium-light roast.

Edited March 11, 2018 by paulraphael (log)

[weinoo]

8 hours ago, paulraphael said:

Just to keep it simple, there is exactly one definition of espresso: coffee produced by forcing hot water through coffee grounds at very high pressure, typically 9 atmospheres.

 

There's a bit of wiggle room with the pressure, but if it's much lower than that it's not espresso. For example, a "moka pot" aka "stovetop espresso maker" can make good coffee, but it's not espresso. These contraptions produce about 1.5 atmospheres of pressure. The result doesn't resemble the flavor or viscosity of the real thing. The pressure requirement isn't arbitrary; a major part of what characterizes espresso is that the high pressure emulsifies the oils from the coffee bean. This creates the syrupy mouthfeel. 

Wow - you've been sitting on this answer for a year!

 

BTW, I've been using (one of) my moka pots to make myself an afternoon pick-me-up lately.  With some good beans, it's not half-bad...after adding sugar, that is...

 

 

 

[rotuts]

Moka-Pots can make excellent coffee.  

 

the beans , the roast level , and the grind make a difference w the M-P's

 

of note :  as a ' single taster '  , i.e. Me 

 

being my own control , and a home roaster 

 

the selection of beans for my favorite ' drip ' or M-P coffee is very different 

 

than my favorite blend for espresso ,  using a high end grinder that matches the high end espresso machine.

 

the Espresso-Blend is also roasted to about  4 - 5 degrees less than for drip.

 

just into the second crack.

 

if I switched these two roasts around  , and used the ' drip ' roast for espresso , and visa versa  

 

I wouldn't care for rather cup.

 

Since im my own ' control '  for this experiment , and Ive done it out of curiosity 

 

the bean blend for espresso matters and its not the bean-blend for ' drip '

 

including different roasting points.

 

I was a bit surprised when I tried this.

 

the switch made pretty bad espresso , and awful drip.

 

Id also suggest that ' true ' turkish coffee can be excellent , but that's a different topic

 

and a different blend of beans and roasting point and grinding point.

Edited March 11, 2018 by rotuts (log)

[weinoo]

Wouldn't you know it - I happened to buy some super-fresh Stumptown Hair Bender yesterday - that's the blend/roast they use for their everyday espresso.

 

And since I'm waiting for my Tim Wendelboe March shipment, I made a pot of pour over with the Hair Bender this morning.  It's not good. Well, I guess it's better than a lot

of what passes for coffee, but - no.  Fortunately, I have some fresh single-origin from Cafe Grumpy - it'll serve me well on my second cup.

 

My guess is the Hair Bender makes a decent enough Moka.

[rotuts]

if you have enough of the SHB left , why not Rancillio it and report back ?

 

how fresh was the SHB ?

 

3 - 4 + days after roast  makes the best espresso.

 

Ive rosted  and used beans at a little over 24 hrs , and it was OK.  

 

but three days later , sampling each morning , makes the best Cup.

 

and one day

 

@weinoo

 

you will start roasting your own

 

the The Night will turn to Day.

Edited March 11, 2018 by rotuts (log)

[weinoo]

Ahhhh, rotuts, I did the whole roasting-at-home thing years ago....don't you remember? I had a 1st or 2nd generation Fresh Roast roaster (which I ended up gifting to Don Lee), but I was making my whole building smell like Starbucks. So I moved on to buying super-freshly roasted beans, from various sources.

 

But - answering your first question - the SHB beans were roasted March 6th - so they're peaking!  They're just not the profile I prefer for pour-over.

[rotuts]

FR is at best OK.

 

is there no way you can vent the next level up roaster ?

 

that would be the 

 

http://behmor.com/behmor-1600-plus/

 

at espresso levels it does not emit SB aromas

 

try the SHB beans in the Silvia

 

clean it up and the grinder first !

[weinoo]

The venting is the impossible part.  Remember, I was gonna vent my new range-hood to the outside, and that turned out to not be practical.

 

Yes, I'm pretty sure they'll (the SHB) will make for a nice espresso in Silvia.

[rotuts]

Cra*p

 

@weinoo

 

you will just have to move.

 

[weinoo]

3 minutes ago, rotuts said:

Cra*p

 

@weinoo

 

you will just have to move.

 

Not after everything  we just did to this apartment!

[paulraphael]

When I was a kid my dad bought a coffee roaster and experimented with it for a few weeks. I don't know why ... he's not an obsessive nerd like me. I was thrilled that he dropped it because roasting day made the whole apartment smell like a tire fire.

[paulraphael]

2 hours ago, weinoo said:

Wow - you've been sitting on this answer for a year!

 

BTW, I've been using (one of) my moka pots to make myself an afternoon pick-me-up lately.  With some good beans, it's not half-bad...after adding sugar, that is...

 

It would be fun to experiment with. The moka pot coffee I've made has been on the bitter side, but not in an unslalvageable burnt office coffee way. I didn't know what I was I doing (just using the resident pot at an air b&b). I suppose it's a given that you'll be brewing with 212° water, so that might be tricky to compensate for. 

[weinoo]

49 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

 

It would be fun to experiment with. The moka pot coffee I've made has been on the bitter side, but not in an unslalvageable burnt office coffee way. I didn't know what I was I doing (just using the resident pot at an air b&b). I suppose it's a given that you'll be brewing with 212° water, so that might be tricky to compensate for. 

There definitely are tricks to the Moka pot; Numero 1 might be not using an airbnb's Moka pot, because no matter what some old Italian grandma said, they do need to be cleaned properly.

 

I also rinse out the top portion just before screwing the whole thing together, which leaves a tiny bit of moisture up there.  And heat it slowly, on very low heat, making sure the fire is turned off before the actual brewed coffee up top starts to boil.

 

Is it possible the water starts to rise up through the filter before it actually hits 212 F?

 

[rotuts]

@paulraphae

 

" the whole apartment smell like a tire fire. "

 

well, you are honest

 

these days , that's a gift

 

Diogenese will be getting in touch

 

he will take you to Lunch

 

go Large

 

too bad

 

ive never equated Roasted Coffee

 

w tires 

 

cold tires , hot tires , burning tires

 

guess Im a bit lucky.

 

 

 

[Smokeydoke]

I just want to say eGullet amazes me at times. Still so much to discover and learn... as I sip on my $2 McDonald's ice coffee.

[rotuts]

@Smokeydoke

 

you paid for Ice ?

 

OK

 

I forgot you are in LV

 

sorry

 

Ive got Free Ice Outside !

[paulraphael]

9 hours ago, rotuts said:

 

ive never equated Roasted Coffee

 

w tires 

 

cold tires , hot tires , burning tires

 

guess Im a bit lucky.

 

 

 

 

I'm not assuming that's what it smells like when anyone else does it ...