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TRIO QUESTIONS


chefg

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Cabrales - When ordering the menu is presented and after having some time to think, the staff (who are all extremely knowlegable and very helpful) will come to answer any questions about certain items. At this point you have a vague, unpolished idea of what you will be eating (if you look at the menu you will understand why - it tells you the elements of a dish, but rarely makes a mention of how they will be used or with what technique). This leaves a ton of room for suprise for when the food actually arrives at the table.

The real description comes when the dishes are presented. Depending on the dish, they first deal with ingredients and the forms they are served in, such as "this is a goat's milk sorbet next to...". The focus is put first on the main element in the dish (this is the item that is in all CAPS on the menu) and if a technique warrants mentioning (such as how they poach some of the fish and meat in a vacuum sealed bag at low heat) it will be mentioned. Secondly the other elements of a certain dish are explained, and your attention is expected as some dishes are really complex and you will have no idea what the third layer is if you don't listen. At this point they will answer any questions or repeat anything you didn't catch (sometimes it's a lot to take in). In regards to the stability of certain dishes, the descriptions are never a problem, but there have been times where a question leads to a conversation and after a few moments I'll be told to eat my fish before it gets cold. :biggrin:

After eating in this type of atmosphere, it's hard not to notice it missing immediately (and wish it was there) when you go somewhere else, where it does not exist. It's more than just being a luxury of the meal; it's really an integral part of appreciating and understanding the food. With prix fixe, multi-course menus, it would be impossible to remember what you read a few hours prior about what the course now sitting in front of you really is. This can almost go for a la carte menu's too, and I have eaten in nice places before where you order a piece of fish and it is brought out to you on a bed of something and next to something, but just set down on the table with no explanation. And aside from just explaining what you are about to eat, there is also a sense of story involved with a lot of the food at Trio. For instance the butter comes from Animal Farms in Vermont (The French Laundry also used this butter - extremely rich and a dark yellow color), owned by a woman who only has eight cows and they all have names and she sends notes explaining how each one is doing. So really you are getting both an appreciation of what Chef Achatz is doing in the kitchen and an appreciation of the food itself, and the life it had before it arrived at the door of the restaurant. As far as if other diners get all this, I'd like to think everyone who eats there and commits that much time and money to the experience would care at least this much about it, but then again, people do eat at places like this for many different reasons; and not always about the food. But in general, I do feel the other diners are all really into it and you'll hear gasps and laughs when the "Carmel Popcorn" amuse is served or the hot water is poured over orange peel. People seem to connect with it and have a lot of fun.

-ryne

Edited by RyneSchraw (log)
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Cabrales - Yep, Trio is inside the Homestead. It's a really charming inn on a residential street with some very nice homes, lots of trees and some great architecture (a few really huge churches). The area itself is beautiful, a few blocks west of the lake and south of Northwestern University. Also it puts the focus entirely on Trio, as opposed to being in a huge city with a lot of top notch places a few blocks away, and gives it that secluded, quiet feel. Kinda similar in way to the other restaurants that have come up in this thread (FL and el Bulli). People who live in the city have to make somewhat of a "trek" out to eat here. But really, Evanston is such a cool town - it's like my home away from home (but only 20 min. away :smile:)

-ryne

Edited by RyneSchraw (log)
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The use of unusual ingredients is not an attempt to do anything but create a new cuisine, at least for Trio. Not for the sole purpose to surprize. It is surprizing because the diner has never sampled this pairing before. I am sure it was surprizing when people said there was a machine that moved people from place to place without a horse. I see your point. As a chef, when we come across an unusual pairing, we second and triple guess ourselves. Why are we doing this? Because it tastes good has to be the answer. But it is even surprizing to us, and we conseptulized it! If we are confident in a pairing it will be plugged into the repertoire and stay there. For example, Trio feels confident that bittersweet chocolate and niciose olives pair well together, as well as campari and grapefruit, olive oil and green apple, orange and mustard, blue cheese, and white chocolate, kola and caviar, sardines and foie gras............ It is our way of advancing the cause of fine dinning. It is our way of inventing the wheel.

ChefG - I agree with all of this. But my point goes more to how the cuisine is going to spread, not so much to the actual success factor based on how things taste. There is more to great cuisine then someone creating a recipe. There is bringing the cuisine to a worldwide market. And to do that successfully, one needs to be able to quantify what one ate so they can communicate it to others. If we look at El Bulli, the most famous restaurant in the world when it comes to being creative, they are a phenomenon amongst the trade but virtually unknown amongst the public. There are a number of reasons for this, but probably none greater then people who eat there cannot describe the cuisine adequately outside of the context of describing the chef's technique. This is something new for cuisine as far as I know.

As you stated, for the past century, cuisine has somehow or another been derivitive of Escoffier. In reality that means that people have applied techniques derived from Escoffier to regional cuisines. And we can take this approach all the way to Keller being "whimsical" by which I mean, he took some famous American dishes and adapted them to haute cuisine.

This is a particulary complicated issue, and do not take my questions or comments to be criticism. In fact, I am more interested in contemporary chefs getting over what might be a hump because it will make for more interesting eating. And currently I think the expansion of modern cuisine in the U.S. is moving at a snails pace. But I am not seeing the point as to why the application of new technique means divorcing regionalism from the cuisine? I might have an old-fashioned way of looking at it but, when I go out to the Heartlands from NYC for the weekend, I want to come home feeling like I tasted the Heartlands. Some of the ways you can do that are to eat cultural constructs like Italian Beef sandwiches. But at the high end, diners are looking to see that amazing technique applied to easily identifiable things like lake trout and Wisconsin chedder. When that happens, it resonates with them in a certain way. Tied to the past and the familiar, but reorganized into and for the future.

If you find the El Bulli conversation I was referring to, you will see the conversation ended up in a discussion of the avant garde. And why the avant garde in both classical music and jazz never took hold with the public. I don't think it was discussed there but it occurs to me that unlike art, where museums basically subsidize the exhibition of what we would call the avant garde, music is more of a business. Like a restaurant which is depedant on customers, it is dependant on a certain level of commercial success from the sales of recordings. And some of us wonder, that unless someone applies the new techniques in a way that is consistant with past applications, the "modern and inventive" can end up becoming esoteric in the way that Albert Ayler and Archie Shepp became esoteric (avant garde jazz sax players for those who don't know.) Because there will always be diehards like Ryne, Cabrales and me. But we do not make an audience if you know what I mean. Mind you, we are counting on you to make sure this doesn't happen :biggrin:.

I have to also add that all this talk of eating at Trio has made me have the desperate need to go back there in the near future for another extravaganza. If I might ask, which do you suggest, the spring or summer cuisine as the better platform for the ChefG philosophy?

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There is bringing the cuisine to a worldwide market. And to do that successfully, one needs to be able to quantify what one ate so they can communicate it to others

But I am not seeing the point as to why the application of new technique means divorcing regionalism from the cuisine? I might have an old-fashioned way of looking at it but, when I go out to the Heartlands from NYC for the weekend, I want to come home feeling like I tasted the Heartlands. Some of the ways you can do that are to eat cultural constructs like Italian Beef sandwiches. But at the high end, diners are looking to see that amazing technique applied to easily identifiable things like lake trout and Wisconsin chedder.

I have to also add that all this talk of eating at Trio has made me have the desperate need to go back there in the near future for another extravaganza. If I might ask, which do you suggest, the spring or summer cuisine as the better platform for the ChefG philosophy?

Steve:

I have highlighted above a few things I want to hit on.

Interesting comment on worldwide market, and perfectly valid. I disagree with el Bulli being lesser known than most 3 star restaurants. With the exception of Ducasse who has brought his food to the U.S. I doubt many people could name any 3 star chef dramatically over Ferran. In fact he has received a great deal of press in U.S. magazines within the last 3 years. Gourmet, F&W, Bon Appetite, Art Culinaire, and I would assume the NY Times although I haven't seen any such piece. All of this because he is doing food that nobody else is. He is huge in Japan and even Australia.

I agree, the pace of modern cuisine in the states is painfully slow, or is it? The movement itself just started not so long ago in France and Spain. Think of the 5 most highly regarded chefs at the high end level in the states. They are all over 40 and have been developing their style or "brand" for quite some time. Along comes a more creative approach to food, chefs saying: hey it's ok to take some chances, its ok to develop new techniques. But the chefs here have already made their mold, developed their repertoire, implemented their systems. They are the ones in the public eye, on the TV Food Network, in the Grimes reviews, on the cover of Gourmet. They are the pinnacle of fine dinning here. The new generation or next wave of chefs are just coming onto the scene, and they will bring a more modern cuisine. I feel it will be dramatic. I see it in the cooks I deal with, the ones currently in culinary school, the ones "on the lines" in the kitchens of our best restaurants in this country. They will be the hope for a modern cuisine in the U.S. not the ones that are in the spotlight right now.

New technique does not mean divorce of regionalism. The problem is regionalism itself. What is it in the States? To look at the current menu at Trio, The French Laundry, and Daniel, what ingredients display a sense of regionalism to each respective restaurant? TFL uses Hudson Valley foie gras not Sonoma, Lamb from Pennsylvannia, Great Lakes whitefish, Cobia from the Gulf of Mexico, French Black Truffles, yuzu from Japan, hearts of palm from Hawaii, huckleberries from Oregon, asparagus from Jersey, and so on. Trio is the same. Daniel (I think) is the same. Root vegetables dominate all of the menus. Today it seems chefs have the convienence of internet research, fed-ex shipping to get any ingredient they desire or prefer the next day. Trio certainly falls into this category, sourcing products from all over. Quality is priority. Trio is sensitive to local products and tries hard to support them, which in turn gives the food a sense of regionalism but not exclusivly Midwestern. California seems to have the advantage being they have all the resources at their disposal. Wine, ocean, farmland and most importantly the social awareness to provide the small purveyor -restaurant relationships. At least in northern California.

Your point on the avant garde is a great one. It was a very thought out topic during the rebirth of Trio 1 1/2 years ago knowing the food would move in that direction. The response has been good to the food. Even despite the "comfort food" craze that followed 911. Publications as influential as the NY Times recently ran front page (food section) story on no more foie gras, give me a burger....or something like that. When society is bombarded with these messages they will follow. As the more open minded come into positions (chefs, writers) that allow them to shape the horizon of dinning, this country will see the change that is sweeping Europe.

Trio feels that it displays sound examples of its cuisine in all four Midwestern seasons. Maybe ask yourself what ingredients are more exciting to eat and base your decision that way. Certainly after a long winter it is nice to see things like asparagus, morels, peas, taking the place of root vegetables! It's tough to let go of the truffles though.

Thank you for the commentary, it helps us all grow.

--

Grant Achatz

Chef/Owner

Alinea

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At any given time 50-85%of our produce comes from a organic coop in Madison, Wis. Our contact has relationships with a group of farmers in the area. He compiles a list twice a week on the products available and drives them to Chicago twice a week. The products are wonderful, the freshness is amazing. Besides the quality of the vegetables Trio feels good supporting local farms that take the integral approach to their craft.

chefg,

Do you use any produce from Illinois' farms, specifically Henry's farm and Nicholls farm (my personal favorite)? Do you ever shop at the Farmer's market in Evanston? If not, I'd love to go with you sometime :smile: .

Thanks for all your input. I am looking forward to my next visit to Trio.

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Do you recall appealing non-dessert, non-breakfast egg dishes you have sampled at other restaurants?

Cabrales - I've been curious about this dish by Ferran Adrià for some time now...sounds good eh?

5.jpg

The latest issue of Great Chefs magazine has a small piece on how the eggs are created. Quite simply, quail eggs are poached in the common manner and then the egg white strands are cut/cleaned up with scissors. To create the gold leaf, discs of glucose are painted with gold leaf. one disc is placed on top of an egg and then it's placed under a salamander so the disc melts and envelops the egg. the egg is flipped over, and another disc is placed and under the salamander it goes, so the whole egg is enclosed in the gold leaf. any comments on how it might taste other than the glucose being sweet? from my experience, gold leaf does not have much of a distinguishable taste, maybe because it's used so sparringly?

mike

edit: i should add that i'm fairly sure the eggs in question are the same.

Edited by mikeczyz (log)
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11. Other Restaurants If you are comfortable discussing it, do you dine out at other Chicago-area restaurants, in your free time?  How would you contrast the approach of Chef Achatz to, say, the culinary principles prevailing at Tru?

Cabrales:

Yes, although my feel time is very limited, especially since discovering egullet! The last post addressed to Steve may give you some understanding of my views on the state of restaurants in Chicago. I have dinned at Trotter's TRU, Carlos, Topolobomo, Spring, Campagnola, Blackbird, Aruns, Le Francais, and I am sure more but I can't recall. I don't review restaurants, sorry.

--

Grant Achatz

Chef/Owner

Alinea

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Thoughts and comments relating to the spread of modern cuisine:

I think chefg makes a very good point, that anyone out there who's doing these types of things with food is still greatly out-numbered by the stalwarts of the traditional French model. Just take New York for example--there is Blue Hill and Gramercy Tavern, but the focus remains with the French chefs. They are still having their day, and while this is not a problem at all, it's clear their days are numbered. This is not to say there won't be any more traditional French restaurants, but no one can pretend anymore that it all ends with Escoffier. There is definitely a "Food Revolution" going on with high-end dining, and similar to the Industrial Revolution it started with a small few, and will just get transfered on and on and be modified and improved on by the younger cooks who are just starting out now, or are still in culinary school, or who haven't even been born yet, with no end in sight and no way to stop it.

And the press does play a huge role in this as well. The French Laundry really wasn't huge until Ruth Reichl wrote about it as being "The most exciting place to eat in the United States" in The New York Times. El Bulli has collected, over the last 10 years, an almost ridiculous amount of press (I posted a thread earlier on the Press Site and since then they have updated yet again with new articles from 2002, bringing the total to over 400 meticulously clipped and scanned articles.* God, I can't wait for that cookbook to hit the U.S. later this year!!!) As a testament to the effect of this exposure, el Bulli filled up for the whole year in one day last month. Which proves that people do indeed enjoy this type of cuisine. So, while el Bulli, Trio and FL all stand on the very edge of cuisine and are all very avant-garde, they are not so in the elitist sort of way that can be associated with avant-garde art, cinema, fashion, etc... Rather the food does a lot to please the people who eat it (not just those creating it), and they do try hard and succeed in making it accessible to the public. I've gone with friends, my sister, mom, etc., none of whom really have any interest in high end dining or food and they have all loved it and all wanted to go back.

I think when it comes down to classifying and talking about this food, it works best to treat it as entertainment, and to communicate it as being that way. You certainly don't eat at any of these places simply because you are hungry--the whole experience goes way beyond that. Really it is food as the show- not dinner and a movie, but rather just dinner. There is a quote from a review of el Bulli off www.foodtourist.com that kinda fits:

A visit to El Bulli requires a willingness to suspend the reality that eating is a basic fundamental of life, something we do in order to survive. There is little about a meal here that bears any relationship to notions of eating for living. It’s an experience that will give you sensual and intellectual pleasure, as far removed from eating to live as reading Kafka is to following a set of instructions on how to program a video recorder.

*note: relating to the el Bulli press site. as chefg said, there is a huge interest in Ferran Adrià in Japan and some of the Japanese press articles reflect this. more specifically, they include some very very cool pictures of his food (I think these might be taken from the cookbook). just limit the seach using the word "japones" and of particular interest are #4 ("Mr. Ferran Adriá gave a fantastic surprise for Mr. Joel Robuchon") and #10 (Revista Japonesa . Recetas de El Bulli from SPÉCIALITÉS magazine) for the amazing pictures.

Edited by RyneSchraw (log)
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Here's the link to one of the Japanese ones:

http://press.elbulli.com/scripts/fitxa.php...id_article=1651

And what Adria cookbook are you waiting for that isn't already here, Ryne?

Mike--I'm not so sure about the pictures or who wrote or translated that Great Chefs thing about the quail egg. Ferran did do caramelized quail eggs, and it's usually encased in very thin, very hard caramel--what Ferran calls caramelos--so it simulates eating the egg in its own shell. I thought he did those quail eggs the same season he did polenta helada, which was a 1999 tapa, but now I'm not sure. I can't find the recipe. In the "El Bulli 1998-2002" there is a nice recipe for Huevo de oro--it's number 741 on the CD-ROM and pictured on page 362 of the book. It's a different picture and without a spoon. He cooks it to 160--I read through it quickly and I think he uses gold dust (or powder) not leaf. It's like 1 g to 100 g of the caramelo. The caramelo base is also glucose+fondant+isomalt.

Steve Klc

Pastry chef-Restaurant Consultant

Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

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And what Adria cookbook are you waiting for that isn't already here, Ryne?

the english version of "El Bulli: 1998-2002"...i took two years of spanish, but thats not gonna help me much with the version out now. i don't think any bookstores around Chicago are carrying the spanish one, but i would like to go browse through it if they were. otherwise i'll order the english edition when it arrives.

-ryne

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Steve--now that you have played the regionalism card on Grant, don't you think it's time to play the lack of a signature dish card? It's a key distinction you've made elsewhere on the site when discussing these same themes--that today's "modern/inventive" chefs aren't as significant as the masters of yore unless they come to be identified and defined by some transcendent signature dish. Si o no?

Steve Klc

Pastry chef-Restaurant Consultant

Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

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Here's the link to one of the Japanese ones:

http://press.elbulli.com/scripts/fitxa.php...id_article=1651

And what Adria cookbook are you waiting for that isn't already here, Ryne?

Mike--I'm not so sure about the pictures or who wrote or translated that Great Chefs thing about the quail egg.  Ferran did do caramelized quail eggs, and it's usually encased in very thin, very hard caramel--what Ferran calls caramelos--so it simulates eating the egg in its own shell.  I thought he did those quail eggs the same season he did polenta helada, which was a 1999 tapa, but now I'm not sure.  I can't find the recipe. In the "El Bulli 1998-2002" there is a nice recipe for Huevo de oro--it's number 741 on the CD-ROM and pictured on page 362 of the book.  It's a different picture and without a spoon. He cooks it to 160--I read through it quickly and I think he uses gold dust (or powder) not leaf.  It's like 1 g to 100 g of the caramelo. The caramelo base is also glucose+fondant+isomalt.

you could be totally correct. i read the article and just typed it here off the top of my head. either i or the article could be at fault...

mike

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While I'm waiting for you to take the signature dish bait, Steve, I'll reframe it as a question to Grant--say something like the pushed foie gras becomes so lauded, so repeated in the media it begins to take on mythic proportions--it comes to be seen as defining your whole approach to cuisine. You know it is just one dish among many and that you could hardly be defined by one dish, any dish.

Would you take it off the menu at the end of this season? Are you already thinking about how to re-work or re-conceptualize it? Unlike the past masters--who wouldn't think of removing their signature dish--or even, it seems, Thomas Keller, who seems to keep signatures on his menu for years--how do you feel about that? Are you closer in spirit to Adria who won't repeat dishes from season to season and in fact, seems beyond the whole "concept" of a signature dish? All his dishes are signature dishes and reflect his process--and that accepting the mere notion of a signature dish would be too limiting.

That said--signatures are something the media can latch on to--like a sound byte--are they a necessary evil?

Keep up the good work here and elsewhere.

Steve Klc

Pastry chef-Restaurant Consultant

Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

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Steve Klc - Well those are both marketing issues that restaurants have to deal with. Obviously, the better people can communicate what a restaurant does well, the easier it is to convince people to dine there. Sure you can say that at Trio the food is "modern and inventive," that just won't sell as many covers as "modern and inventive take on Midwest cuisine." And I'm not suggesting that ChefG should alter anything he does. But the market is the market. It's hard enough to change the market's perceptions about tastes and textures, changing the methods we use to communicate how things taste, and why we should go taste them, is just one more burden. When someone first said "Nouvelle Cuisine," everyone knew what they meant. I'm still waiting for someone to describe what is going on in Spain in a more descriptive fashion then "cooking with total and complete freedom," a description which has not exactly made every American jump on a plane to go have dinner there.

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Steve Klc - Since you posed it that way, there is another aspect to the entire signature dish/masterpiece debate. I mean it is nice to be able to walk over to the Met from my apartment and see Autumn Rhythm. Or to put on the CD and hear Miles still play that great solo on So What Live at Carnegie Hall. And even though it's not quite the same, it is also nice to be able to go to Yountville and have Thomas's White Truffle Custard. And while I understand the concept of progress, I hate to see masterpieces discarded in the name of it. That one doesn't really work for me either.

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chefg, first of all thank you for this very interesting thread, I think your honest and detailed answers have made us all want to try Trio sometime soon.

I believe your pastry chef was at Trio before you so I was wondering, if you feel comfortable answering, if when you came to Trio the owner gave you the option of looking for a new pastry chef or keeping Paula or if it was insisted that she stay. Similarly, how much of the staff are carryovers from before you were chef and how have these people, Paula included, reacted to the very different and modern cuisine you brought? Would you say some were skeptical (as Mario Batali says his staff was with olive oil gelato), did they find some things difficult or were they generally very enthusiastic and interested in your cuisine and techniques? Finally, have all your staff had your techniques and philosophy explained to them as we're having the pleasure of now? :smile:

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g,

I know that a great deal of attention is paid to the dessert courses of your menus. To expand on Chazzy's question, how would you describe the collaboration between Paula and yourself, in general, with regard to the sweet-savory transition and how the final courses play out, and more specifically, the conceptualization of the dishes themselves?

With regard to your cooking in general, a constant need for experimentation and rethinking of old ideas must play a huge role. Are there any generalizations you can make about the progress of a dish from concept through to reality? The discovery process?

You've made statements about where our cuisine is headed, and rethinking the pathways of sourcing ingredients and new cooking methods. How might the organization of the kitchen itself change with the advent of a new cuisine, new equipment, new cooking methods? Will there be any use for the Ecoffier model of a kitchen brigade in the near future? Are there already hints toward this direction in your own kitchen?

Michael Laiskonis

Pastry Chef

New York

www.michael-laiskonis.com

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SIGNATURE DISHES

Trio has made a general decision to not have signature dishes. It prevents futher creativity. Although some dishes will stay on the menu for long stretches of time like the lobster with rosemary vapor. Some may go away for long periods and reappear as totally reworked dishes like the "rootbeer"of beef that is currently on the menu. The kitchen team at Trio bores with dishes after a certain period. We often reflect back on dishes that we felt good about at the time but would not put them on the menu now. I feel we advance at a rapid pace, and it shows in the food. The menus run very seasonally and only dishes that defy seasonality remain for longer than 2-3 months. As soon as a new menu is in place the team begins the task of developing the new menu, it never stops. We do not have the luxury of being seasonal. To be able to take a few months off to just "create" must be wonderful! The development process is lead by the chef, but the kitchen is very collabrative in nature. Discusscions are held to brainstrom new ideas and elevate the current set of dishes. The staff is incredibly special in this regard. A thinktank environment is present. The staff is fully aware of all techniques, no secrets are held, they are ones executing the food. As far as philosophy, the team is very aware of our goal, parameters, style, and focus. This is achieved by both being submersed in the environment and through diliberate discussions on it. Even the waitstaff is highly tuned in to concepts of the food and overall method.

--

Grant Achatz

Chef/Owner

Alinea

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If I may ask, how many diners opt for the Tour de Force on any given night (approximately)?

The Tour de Force flucuates between 12 to 20% of covers. January 2003 was the highest number of TDF we have served at Trio since it's inception over a year ago. The number of diners that choose that option has steadily risen. This trend is exciting for Trio, as the composition of its guests shift to a more "foodie" cliental. The menu offers the most creative food served at the restaurant and can be ordered spontaniously, although we encourge awareness at the time of reservation if the guests have made the commitment to the menu before arriving at the restaurant. It is currently 22 courses long, course being a reletive term for dishes as small as a stamp, but 22 compositions will be consumed by the diner.Vegetarian and no meat menus have been served, with less enthusium from the kitchen due to the limitations on techniques using gelatin and certain animal products. The average diner will take 4 hours to complete the meal, this is variable due to number in your party, how fast you eat, the sense of urgency in the kitchen, and if wine flights are being consumed with the meal. The menu is composed of dishes both from the 4 course, the eight course and items not on either menu. It is designed to flow from begining to end in a progression of flavors, textures, techniques and temperatures.

--

Grant Achatz

Chef/Owner

Alinea

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