Buy-in cost for homemade espresso?

[Chris Hennes]

What do you all figure the current buy-in cost is for a decent espresso setup at home? At first when I started looking at it I was excited ("ooh, look, a Silvia for under $700") but I was then reminded of all the other stuff you need. A PID, a high-end grinder, maybe a new portafilter, etc., etc., etc. I'm not talking about the "bare minimum to beat Starbucks" setup, I'm talking about the "make espresso worth drinking" setup.

[rotuts]

you can make mighty fine espresso with a Silvia ( non-PID) and a ( now called Baratza ) grinder :

 

https://www.sweetmarias.com/product/encore-burr-mill

 

I did this for about 5 years until I moved up to an AlexiaPID and a K-3 grinder

 

https://www.sweetmarias.com/product/compak-k3-touch-coffee-grinder-two-colors

 

you just have to understand the Silvia, 'boiler-surf' etc

 

I got outstanding espresso   ~ 85 - 90 % of the time.

 

I do roast my own beans, so a Bean source if you do not roast yourself is very important.

 

I move up after thinning about it for a long time, and that was 8 years ago and the items in question were a bit cheaper

 

now I get outstanding ( personal ) espresso 95 + of the time.  still home roast.

 

I was an investment that I chose to make after thinking about it for 4 months.

 

Id do it again, at that same time after I know the difference.

 

but 

 

1 ) you have to know what real espresso is     its an emulsion that you then tailor to your own tastes via bean selection

 

and you have to appreciate it for what its work and enjoy making it

 

the alexia is a single boiler, and i don't do milk

 

less then the silvia/baratza combo, you will only get strong coffee  with the most outstanding bean selection

 

not the emulsion.

 

http://www.jlhufford.com/Rancilio-Silvia-V4-and-Baratza-Preciso-Grinder-p/rancilio-silvia-preciso-combo.htm?gclid=CIy28NjV0ckCFY0XHwodI5MGYA

 

but you have to be able to 'work' the Silvia.   its not hard to do, BTW even at 5 am

 

BTW unless the tamper w the Silvia has changed, its junk and really matters :

 

maybe

 

http://www.amazon.com/Rattleware-58-Milimeter-Round-Handled-Tamper-Long/dp/B0016CBO74/ref=pd_bxgy_79_img_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0PN57CFKK7SBD0YVKSNN

 

you do not need an 'open' portafilter for this set up.

 

BTW  I would not PID the Silvia, unless you've used it for a time and choose to stay with that as you machine

 

you can PID it later at  home.

 

it if drives you crazy and you can't figure out how to 'heat-surf' with it ( i.e.  you start your espresso just when the red light turns off )

 

remember, no mater what technical set up you have or move up to  :  its about the right beans roasted to your taste, 'freshly'

 

I love espresso, and have worked with SM's green beans for over 10 years to get to my blend.  I have more than one.

 

the AlexiaPID and the K-3 I got from Chris' Coffee in Albany

 

http://www.chriscoffee.com/espresso-machines-for-home-s/2645.htm

 

as I live in BOS  I went there to pick it up.  they gave me the out of state coast I still saved tax and

 

spent 2 1/2 hours with them improving my technique

 

back them the total coast was 1,800

 

a lot you say

 

you bet I say.

 

but better than a BMW and a bit cheaper and more rewarding for me.

 

one last thing :  One might move up from what i have, but through experience I know that I can't technically make

 

better espresso than Im making now.  you would be surprised at how important the grind/tamp is to your results.

 

excellent review of equipment, starting with the Silvia and up, including the importance of a quality grinder are here :

 

http://www.home-barista.com/reviews.html

Edited December 10, 2015 by rotuts (log)

[weinoo]

I'd say between $1,500 and $2,000.

 

I don't have quite as many words as rotuts to add, but amortize it over the course of espresso drinks.

 

Let's say you buy 1 drink a day at a real (i.e. not starbucks) 2nd or 3rd wave coffee shop.

 

And let say that drinks costs, conservatively, $3 .

 

Without figuring in the cost of the software, because I haven't done math in a long time (good beans probably run between $18 - $24/lb.) Pays off in less than a year and a half.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2015 by weinoo (log)

[Chris Hennes]

Thanks, @weinoo -- Any estimate of how much practice you needed before you were producing something you'd describe as "respectable" shots?

[weinoo]

Let's put it this way - there were a fair number of sink shots! And a lot of jitters.

 

But I'd say a pound or so in, and I was pulling quite drinkable stuff.

 

I'm sure you have one - a scale is really, really helpful.  As is a timer.

 

 

[rotuts]

you will need more practice with the Silvia, less with  the 2 K set up

 

but 1 LB is about right if you get a really good grinder like the K3

 

it took me an lb to get that one dialed in 'just right'

 

Id been making espresso 4 - 5 years w the Silvia, and w/o a bottomless portafilter

 

a continuous variable grinder is much preferred over the 'click-click' grinder

 

and a botomless portafilter will let you know exactly what's happening as you create your shot

Edited December 17, 2015 by rotuts (log)

[cdh]

And keep in mind, "dialed in" is a moving target.  Weather messes with your sweet spot.  Your beans will mess with your sweet spot... if you switch between batches, you're in for a recalibration.  Some beans grind so differently that it can be 8 or 10 twists on the adjustment screw on my Ascaso to go from one type to the next. 

Edited December 17, 2015 by cdh (log)

[rotuts]

exactly

 

with a given 'bean-roast' and similar weather the grinder need to be adjusted the minutest bit each day for the same 'stream' you see w a

 

bottomless portafilter.

[weinoo]

Right.  It's much easier for a coffee shop that's selling a hundred shots a day or more to toss a few.

 

I wonder, can the shitty shots be saved up for iced coffee?

[cdh]

That's an interesting idea... thing to do would probably be to knock the underextracted puck and the shot into a french press with some cold water or some such and cold brew it overnight...  certainly wouldn't want to drink nasty underextracted shots, even over ice with milk and sugar.  The stuff that didn't get extracted is still in the puck, though...

29 minutes ago, weinoo said:

Right.  It's much easier for a coffee shop that's selling a hundred shots a day or more to toss a few.

 

I wonder, can the shitty shots be saved up for iced coffee?

 

Edited December 17, 2015 by cdh (log)

[Chris Hennes]

Is underextraction the standard problem with bad shots?

[cdh]

In my experience... when your grind is not tight enough, the water cascades through in 6 seconds and leaves you with a nasty underextracted shot.  When it is too tight, the machine just chokes, so there is not a bad shot to deal with.

[rotuts]

no

 

if you really want to get into this

 

go to Home Barista and study

 

https://www.home-barista.com/

 

study study and study

 

its all there and worth your time

 

if you want to eventually make an espresso you can not buy

 

that it to your personal taste  perfectly

[weinoo]

I don't even think you'd need a French press for that experiment above.  Just a quart jar - cold brew overnight, and then strain through a standard paper filter.

[rotuts]

it might be tasty, and indeed with the right water, the right freshly roasted beans, super tasty

 

but it won't be espresso 

 

based on one's own tastes, perhaps better 

 

Edited December 17, 2015 by rotuts (log)

[Chris Hennes]

No one is arguing that it would be espresso, we're simply discussing a potential use for the grounds from the inevitable failures I can expect to experience if I decide to go this route.

[Steve Irby]

Okay here's my two cents.  Figure around $2,000-$2,500 for a good machine, grinder and a few accessories.  You'll be pulling great shots within a pound or two of beans and you won't be second guessing yourself about the need to upgrade.  Buy a machine with the plumbed in option and a rotary pump.  I started out with an inexpensive Gaggia with a Rancilio Rocky grinder and within a few months upgraded to a Quickmill Vetrano and Mazzer grinder.  That was in 2007 and I have not had any need (or irrational urges) to upgrade.  My machine is a pre-PID single boiler model with E61 group and it has been rock solid producing great shots in accordance with:  http://www.espressoitaliano.org/files/File/istituzionale_inei_hq_en.pdf

 

Don't worry about wasting coffee.  I think you'll find that your bad shot is superior to what passes as espresso at a majority of the coffee shops (yemv!).  If the shot is off it becomes an Americano.  The espresso grind is so fine that it's not much use for anything else if things go south.

 

Get ready to roast coffee beans to keep the cost down and quality up.  Great espresso requires fresh beans that have not degassed or you'll loose the crema or emulsion that is the hallmark of great espresso.  Like Rotuts I have been a big  fan of Sweet Marias blends.  In my experience the window for great espresso is within a week or two from roasting.  After that the bean have degassed and you loose that nice mouth feel.  A pound of greens beans is ~$5 versus ~$20 for an equivalent roasted bean.  

[nickrey]

We've chatted about temperature elsewhere. The rule of thumb for making good coffee is to adjust your grind so that 30ml comes out in 30 seconds. You'll get a feel for it. Humidity can cause fluctuations in the grind you will need but you'll get used to it and see if it is pouring too fast or too slow and be able to adjust accordingly.

 

The best coffee places adjust their grinds many times during the day based on feel for timing of shots. Others simply use their expensive machines like the equivalent of an automatic machine and just press the button (sort of like a nespresso with a portafilter). I often tip out or leave coffee from cafes. Many people have a favourite Barista in a cafe with others not able to create the coffee that they want.

 

Given your obsession with cooking and getting things right (yes, we've noticed), I feel confident that with a PIDded Silvia, a decent grinder, and beans that you find suit your palate, you'll be making shots that are only bested by very few cafes.

 

Yes it will take time to learn it properly but the investment will be worth it.

 

If you're worried about what to do with coffee grounds, check out the Internet for uses for them in your garden, 

 

 

[rotuts]

correct

 

however, the 30 / 30 rule  can be much better understood with a bottomless portafilter, as its actually the 'width' of the stream that's important

 

that is obscured in a regular portafilter.  you can see that very fine adjustments in your grind do to that stream instantaneaously

 

and I mean very very fine adjustments.   that's what a continuous variable grinder is so important, like the doserless K3

[weinoo]

Yes - the first additional "accessory" I bought was a naked/bottomless portafilter.  Helped me learn a great deal about how to pull the god shot.

[Chris Hennes]

Is the Rocky a good grinder at that price point? Much as I'd love to get the Mazzer, I just don't think I can eat that cost for my first espresso setup.

[cdh]

Haven't played with a Rocky myself so can't really say... but I will throw in my observation about grinders.  The grinding beans part of their job is the least challenging part of what they do.  Getting precision grind is easy.  Doing it without huge noise or mess and without the possibility of locking up and jamming and burning out the motor is where the engineering efforts are going.  

 

Back in the day 15 years ago I went from using a little Salton burr grinder with lots of plastic components to a Saeco grinder.  The Saeco's burrs were mounted in a giant solid brass screw mechanism for adjusting... once you dialed in a grind, it wasn't going to change... and you could grind as fine as needed and moreso...  but the thing spun so fast that it threw grinds all over the place and was a total mess... and noisy.  So  I retired that and got a Baratza Preciso.  Fantastic when it was working, but lots of plastic bits in it kept breaking when I tried to throw lightly roasted beans at it.  It spun much slower, made less mess, was quieter.  But fragile.  So I'm now using an Ascaso, which is pretty good.  A little noisy, chokes on a bean every so often and needs to be cleaned out, but great adjustment mechanism, and minimal mess compared to the Saeco. 

 

Moral to the story is that just about any burr grinder can grind your coffee to the texture you need it ground to... even the hand operated ceramic grinders do that... it is the externalities and how the engineering deals with them that is where the pricey grinders earn their value.

Edited December 22, 2015 by cdh (log)

[weinoo]

With that said, I've liked my Rocky a lot. 

Here's an interesting article on grinders from the Sweethome.

 

http://thesweethome.com/reviews/the-best-coffee-grinder/#budget

[Chris Hennes]

Thanks for the link, @weinoo -- it looks like they focus on making coffee in their tests. From the discussions at Home Barista, it sounds like having really fine adjustment control is also a requirement for properly prepared espresso. Has that been your experience as well?

[weinoo]

28 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

From the discussions at Home Barista, it sounds like having really fine adjustment control is also a requirement for properly prepared espresso. Has that been your experience as well?

 

Yes, absolutely.  And Silvia was always known for being a bit "touchy" about the grind. One click either way on the Rocky can make or break your espresso on any given day. As can your tamping. It's almost as annoying as making bread can be.