Living in New York vs. London

[SobaAddict70]

Consumerism: Soba, I'm not, of course, saying it's not possible to live cheaply in NY. In fact, subjectively, as a tourist, NY feels cheaper to me because I think lower-mid-level dining is a lot better value (this changes as you scale up). And cheaper clothes are cheaper in NY, while expensive clothes are roughly the same price. What I'm saying is that retail and consumer culture NY is overall much better developed. There are very few stores in London that have anything like the ability to make you want to part with your cash than entire square miles of NYC. Even Harvey Nichols still ain't Barneys.

That may be a comment then on the cultural economic history in the UK as opposed to America. Seems that its more consumer-driven here, because...well, its always been that way in this country. Its been driven into us by years of tradition. And of course, there's that famous phrase, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happine$$".

What does that say to Europeans (and to Londoners in particular) who strive to create a union of their own (e.g., the EU), and their own future? Will they eventually become a consumer-driven monster? Do they want to?

SA

Edited January 9, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[hollywood]

I truly believe there are only two citis on earth that matter.  London is one.  NY is the other.  Between them they control everything ( art, fashion, music, film, well the oney side at least )

In Los Angeles, we control the weather. Eat your heart out.

[Wilfrid]

Simon, I need to investigate La Fromagerie.

Kiku, it seems you can't get a real bagel in New York any more. Ask Bux or Suzanne F. Although I'll bet a dollar Nina knows somewhere in Brighton Beach or Yonkers where they still make them the old way .

[Kikujiro]

Kiku, we were posting at the same time.  "One sees more mixed-race couples on the street of London than NY."  My experience is just the opposite, but I have no way of telling which of us is right.  I have the sense that New York is much more integrated.

I tried to find some statistics on this but all Google offered was porn.

However, this from the Beeb.

'Britain currently has one of the highest rates of inter-racial relationships in the western world, with 50% of all black children born having one white parent.'

[Wilfrid]

Good. Of course, it destroys diversity .

[Kikujiro]

Good.  Of course, it destroys diversity  .

'All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color.'

-- Warren Beatty as Senator Jay Billington Bulworth

[g.johnson]

Kiku, we were posting at the same time.  "One sees more mixed-race couples on the street of London than NY."  My experience is just the opposite, but I have no way of telling which of us is right.  I have the sense that New York is much more integrated.

I'm with Kikujiro on this one. I'm always struck by the amount of miscegenation (particularly between white and Indian/Pakistani) in London. But it goes further than that and I think Kikujiro is correct to describe it as seperatism. Stand with your back to someone on the Underground and the chances are you won’t be able to tell their ethnicity from their accents. That is not true in NYC and not just with recent immigrants. Harlem and the South Bronx are still black enclaves but my impression is that even Brixton is more diverse nowadays.

[Kikujiro]

I notice neither side made a claim for parks yet.

[Suzanne F]

I've heard that Murray's Bagels in Chelsea and the West Village (no relation to the cheese Murray's) has real bagels, but I have not yet checked them out. Probably some in the outer boroughs, but Nina would know better.

[SobaAddict70]

And of course, associated issues such as crime and cleanliness as well.

SA

[g.johnson]

I notice neither side made a claim for parks yet.

London superior in variety and number. More importantly, London is rich in the crowning achievement of British urban planning: The Square.

[Stone]

This is all off-topic. But I'm convinced that we should agree to accept Britain as the 51st state.

[Kikujiro]

I wouldn't bother. You get all the advantages now (policy run by Washington) without the drawbacks (us all coming over and taking your jobs).

[vengroff]

New York wins hands down for mid-range neigborhood restaurants. I'm talking about the kind of place you would never cross town for, but that you know you can count on for a decent meal on a moment's notice. London, on the other hand, crushes New York when it comes to the local pubs, with their selections of ales and ciders. Both sort of serve the same purpose as a third place to relax and unwind between work and a cramped home.

[Kikujiro]

New York wins hands down for mid-range neigborhood restaurants.  I'm talking about the kind of place you would never cross town for, but that you know you can count on for a decent meal on a moment's notice.  London, on the other hand, crushes New York when it comes to the local pubs, with their selections of ales and ciders.  Both sort of serve the same purpose as a third place to relax and unwind between work and a cramped home.

Unless you don't smoke.

[Wilfrid]

I think Professor Johnson needs to do some research. The South Bronx is not a "black enclave". It just isn't. I have an apartment there (which is not, by the way, the reason it is not a black enclave).

As for parks, may we look beyond Manhattan? I can think of nothing in London to compare with Pelham Bay, Van Cortlandt or Bronx Park in the Bronx, and Prospect Park is no slouch either. I suppose London parks have more ducks.

Ah yes, London wins on pubs. And wine bars. But not on cocktail bars.

Edited January 9, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

[hollywood]

Kiku, we were posting at the same time.  "One sees more mixed-race couples on the street of London than NY."  My experience is just the opposite, but I have no way of telling which of us is right.  I have the sense that New York is much more integrated.

I tried to find some statistics on this but all Google offered was porn.

However, this from the Beeb.

'Britain currently has one of the highest rates of inter-racial relationships in the western world, with 50% of all black children born having one white parent.'

Taboo lust?

[g.johnson]

After 15 years in NYC, I may just be getting nostalgic for London but whenever I go back it seems to have improved in multiple ways. I’m having a hard time now thinking of anything I actually prefer about NYC (apart from the salaries).

I disagree with Wilfrid about restaurants - specific ethnic cuisines aside, I think they’re generally better at each “price point™” in London*.

Food shopping is better in London, both everyday (supermarkets) and specialist – is there a fish store in NYC comparable to Steve Hatt?

If you don’t like musicals, what is there to see in the theatre here other than British touring companies?

NYC cinema generally sucks for anything foreign language (anything non-American for that matter).

Museums? A tie.

Weather? London is better in Summer. NYC better the other seasons.

Beer? Give me a fucking break.

Architecture / Environment? Easier to get around in NYC and, to quote Kingers, “Anyone who walks down 5th Avenue on a sunny day and doesn’t feel his spirits rise, is a shit.” But London is beautiful too.

Mwah. I wanna go home.

*That may be because we are more selective in London and go only to the best.

[g.johnson]

I think Professor Johnson needs to do some research.  The South Bronx is not a "black enclave".  It just isn't.  I have an apartment there (which is not, by the way, the reason it is not a black enclave).

I bow to your superior knowledge -- I only cross water to go to Europe. Would you accept black and hispanic? Even if not, I think you would agree about Harlem.

As for parks, may we look beyond Manhattan?  I can think of nothing in London to compare with Pelham Bay, Van Cortlandt or Bronx Park in the Bronx, and Prospect Park is no slouch either.  I suppose London parks have more ducks.

If we're doing that must we not also include Epping Forest, Richmond Park, etc.?

[Wilfrid]

Interesting to note these different perceptions. Every time I go back to London, I am struck by how dirty, violent and unpleasant it increasingly seems.

As far as the restaurants go, it would be interesting to do a more detailed comparison.

Theater? GJ, do you go out at all? I agree with you if you're talking about Broadway, but again it would be intersting to compare the selection at off and off-off Broadway theaters with what's on outside the West End. Come to think of it, I believe I have recent Time Outs for both cities lying around somewhere. If I have a chance, I'll compare them.

[Suzanne F]

If you don’t like musicals, what is there to see in the theatre here other than British touring companies?

Thank you, Wilfrid, for defending our hono(u)r. It constantly amazes me how many little theaters (not to be confused with that horrible phenomenon, the Little [=amateur, community] Theater) there are, all over Manhattan. And elsewhere in the city, too -- such as the one in the Bronx that does Italian and Italian/American plays.

And for every touring company we might get of, say, Fiona Shaw in Medea, we also have to put up with yet another ALW piece of dreck or something dreadful like The Beauty Queen of Lenane. I'll take Urinetown over those any day.

[Kikujiro]

ALW?

[g.johnson]

Interesting to note these different perceptions.  Every time I go back to London, I am struck by how dirty, violent and unpleasant it increasingly seems

That certainly was my reaction when I first moved here (and it’s still my reaction to the Underground). Eight years ago I applied for a job in London and went for interview during the wettest October on record. Leaving the Underground at Russell Square was one of the most depressing experiences of my life. Much as I love lard, it’s not good when people look as if they’re made of it and everyone did. Plus, 35% of them appeared to have rickets. I turned down the job.

But I now get a sense of energy in London that I didn’t before.

As far as the restaurants go, it would be interesting to do a more detailed comparison.

Contrary to what someone posted previously, I think it’s the low- to mid-range places that are better in London. Daniel vs. RHR is probably a bust (though I preferred RHR on the basis of one visit to each) but I think you’re more likely to get a decent meal in a little Frenchified Bistro in London than in the equivalent here.

Theater?  GJ, do you go out at all?  I agree with you if you're talking about Broadway, but again it would be intersting to compare the selection at off and off-off Broadway theaters with what's on outside the West End.  Come to think of it, I believe I have recent Time Outs for both cities lying around somewhere.  If I have a chance, I'll compare them.

I don’t, but I did in London. There are probably more experimental offerings in NYC but I’m sure they’re mostly utter tosh. What I miss is the RSC/National Theater* productions. There is nothing equivalent here.

Oh well, off for an early dinner at Otto. (Will I be pining for Pizza Express?)

* How the fuck do you spell that again?

[MsRamsey]

ALW? 

Andrew Lloyd Weber.

[Kikujiro]

More on restaurants, from the perspective of a NY tourist/London native of course.

Brunch here sucks with very few exceptions. And I don't care how for-tourists anybody tells me Barney Greengrass is, I miss it every Sunday.

NY wins on scale and decor. Many places in NY just seem bigger than would be possible in London. There was (for all I know still is) a cafe in Soho (whoops, I mean SoHo) on something like Mercer (up from the John Varvatos store ) that had perfectly decent coffee and so on but I just sat there thinking: holy shit, this place is huge. In London it would be a hotel. And even sub-eGullet places can look amazing: the food at Kelley and Ping would not be any more exciting in London, but we could do with that kind of effort put into design.

Lower-priced restaurants and mid-level seem preferable to me maybe for that very reason: the place, the vibe and the service can give food the edge. But at the upper-mid-level I began to notice the food more. I was uninspired by Gramercy Tavern and I'd much rather eat at, say, Alastair Little than Union Square Cafe. Except I wish AL looked and felt more like USC.

Sudden thought: maybe this is at the root of the excitement I feel more in NY restaurants (over and above just being away from home): the same consumerist design pizzazz that gives its stores the edge. Maybe it's not the food at all.

Bagels may not be real in NY any more but you should try them over here.

Edit note: I joined eGullet just after my last visit to New York so I will be interested to see what difference it makes to my next trip, whenever that is.

Edited January 9, 2003 by Kikujiro (log)