Need soy sauce advice: Looking for Chinese take-out-style soy sauce

[huiray]

Regarding the "meifun" dish:  "meifun" means "rice noodle", actually.  "Singapore Meifun" which is a common dish in Chinese/Asian take-outs in the USA (and Canada?) - that yellowish dish, often containing curry powder as you noted - is a dish that does not exist in Singapore. :-)  The "Shrimp Meifun" is self-explanatory.  The "House Meifun" is simply what the place/chef tosses together, a bit of everything, although they have a sort of "standard formula" which is similar across many places as you have found - that is at least partly because many take-out places and smaller/mall-type/non-descript places are run by Fujianese, all using the same menu, most setting up shop after travelling through the same network stretching from a few villages back in Fujian through one of the Chinatowns - traditionally that was NYC .

 

That "extra taste" you describe might simply be lots of MSG? Or a shrimp/pork stock which they may use - The Hokkiens/Fujianese are one of the folks who use that combination (shrimp+pork) to make stock, something not common in other dialect groups like the Cantonese.  But perhaps an eGulleteer whose family etc may have run one of these places might step forwards here and let us know.

 

Have you actually tried adding in Chinese oyster sauce into your sauce/stock mix when you whipped up your home versions of these "meifun" dishes?  One does not need much.  That may be another possibility for what you are missing, even though it may have some actual (fermented) soy content.  

 

I still suspect that you may be simply "tasting" lots of MSG, unless the places you patronize loudly trumpet "MSG-free" status...which usually means that they don't actually spoon in the crystalline stuff, but glutamate or inosinate content would still be found in the sauces/stocks they use including that "hydrolyzed soy".  (I would think that they do use some stock/sauce to make that "House Meifun" you like - it just gets absorbed into the meifun and the whole mixture is cooked down to "dryness", which is the appropriate way, as distinct from meifun dishes like some Cantonese-style meifun dishes where the meifun is pan-fried to give a crispy layer then plated with a sauce with vegetables and protein in it poured over the crispy meifun)

 

They would NOT be using this, because of the expense, but try getting some XO sauce online for your experiments in making "meifun" at home - this is a quite tasty sauce, frequently reserved behind the cashier's counter even in Chinese stores. :-) 

 

Have a look at this image set: 炒米粉 .  Try visiting the pages for what looks attractive to you and use the google translator for interesting ones? (Try this one as a teaser)

 

p.s. Try splashing in some Shaohsing wine too. :-) 

Edited March 30, 2014 by huiray (log)

[FeChef]

Thank you huiray for your very detailed information. As ive mentioned, the distinct flavor im referring to in the "meifun" dish is not curry so the "singapore" version is out the window. But this distinct flavor im talking about is common from one place to another. Some maybe more "bold" then other places. You may be right that this could be a sauce that gets reduced which would explain the stronger flavor from place to place. I do have a few brands of oyster sauce that i have tried. One is some cheap stuff i got at walmart called dynasty oyster sauce. I have used this stuff in a few general tso sauce recipes and it was not bad at all when i used those soy sauce packets. Its when i used kikkoman, or any other brand that used brewed/fermented soybeans that ruined it for me. I will have to take another go at this with this hydrolyzed soy sauce. I picked up a bottle of La Choy soy sauce today at a grocery store about 18 miles from me. I plan to experiment with it all this week. I use alot of MSG in my food but i dont think that is the flavor im tasting in these meifun dishes.   

 

I remember reading something about this XO sauce you mentioned. Its been awhile so i will have to read more about it, and if it sounds like something i may like i will order it from amazon or something. I picked up a bottle of this stuff from a company called Assi soba sauce. It said its a sauce good for noodles so i thought i might try it. It wasnt cheap ($8usd) for 16oz bottle. But im desperate to find this distinct flavor.

 

I just remembered there is a product i bought tha had a flavor that was similair to this distinct flavor im talking about, and it came from packet #2 in a yakisoba spicy chicken ramen container. They cost about $1usd , so its not very cost effective to buy jusy for the #2 packet.

[liuzhou]

I just used that image as a reference for Liuzhou since he/she never heard of soy sauce packets. I cant say i ever tried that brand.

 

I am not familiar with them, no.  They don't exist in China. What do you use them for?

 

It's 'he'.

[FeChef]

I am not familiar with them, no.  They don't exist in China. What do you use them for?

 

It's 'he'.

You use them as a condiment just like you would use a ketchup packet when you order french fries at mcdonalds to go. I know mcdonalds is in just about every country so surely you know what a ketchup packet is?

Anyway, the soy sauce packets are given to you when you order food to go at chinese/asian take-out places. You can use them to put on your meal if you feel it needs a more salty taste.

 

I like to put a few packets of soy sauce in my wonton and egg drop soup.

Edited March 30, 2014 by FeChef (log)

[liuzhou]

I'm dreadfully sorry, but although the McDonalds company do have an outlet in this city I've never been. Not do I ever intend to. However I do know what a sachet of ketchup is, thank you. 

 

However, soy sauce is never used as a condiment in China in the way you describe. In fact, sprinkling soy sauce over your dinner would be a major faux pas. Deeply insulting to the cook.

 

See the hilarious scene in "The Joy Luck Club" where a typical Chinese Mama self-depreciatingly says her dish isn't so good (proper Chinese etiquette) and perhaps need a touch more soy sauce (again). The mama's daughter's newly introduced American boyfriend runs to the kitchen, grabs the soy sauce bottle and, to everyone horror,  pours half of of it over the dish.

 

The only restaurants I know here which have bottles of soy sauce on the table are those serving jiaozi (dumplings). The sauce is intended to to be used to make a dipping sauce to your taste along with vinegar, chilli and garlic (usually). No one pours it on their dinner.

 

And no take away place is going to give you a sachet of soy sauce - real or fake.

[FeChef]

I'm dreadfully sorry, but although the McDonalds company do have an outlet in this city I've never been. Not do I ever intend to. However I do know what a sachet of ketchup is, thank you. 

 

However, soy sauce is never used as a condiment in China in the way you describe. In fact, sprinkling soy sauce over your dinner would be a major faux pas. Deeply insulting to the cook.

 

See the hilarious scene in "The Joy Luck Club" where a typical Chinese Mama self-depreciatingly says her dish isn't so good (proper Chinese etiquette) and perhaps need a touch more soy sauce (again). The mama's daughter's newly introduced American boyfriend runs to the kitchen, grabs the soy sauce bottle and, to everyone horror,  pours half of of it over the dish.

 

The only restaurants I know here which have bottles of soy sauce on the table are those serving jiaozi (dumplings). The sauce is intended to to be used to make a dipping sauce to your taste along with vinegar, chilli and garlic (usually). No one pours it on their dinner.

 

And no take away place is going to give you a sachet of soy sauce - real or fake.

I find this hilarious. It seems the worst person to ask about chinese food in the USA is someone from china. Dont take that the wrong way. Its just that this is how chinese take outs run their business here. The places are run by chinese, not americans.

 

Another thing is that alot of people in the usa are obsessed with watching their sodium levels, so chinese take outs most likely cut back alot on the soy/sodium in the dishes. Using wonton soup as an example it has barely any salt in it. They probably use low sodium chicken broth/stock. Its really the only item i order that definitely needs a soy packet or two.

[liuzhou]

Well, for a start. I'm not "from China". It's where I happen to live at present. This is the first time you mentioned you are in the USA. I realise that most eG members and staff think everything defaultss to the USA. It doesn't.

 

I'm also well aware that Chinese food and American Chinese food are two totally different animals

 

At no point in this discussion did I even suggest that one or another was wrong. I merely sought clarification about your original post, then explained, as best as could, why I was confused. 

 

It seems to me you just don't like soy sauce.That's OK. Don't feel guilty!

Edited March 30, 2014 by liuzhou (log)

[FeChef]

I like soy sauce, just not the fermented variety. It took me awhile to realize the difference, or why i didnt like one or the other.

[TheCulinaryLibrary]

SOY SAUCE: (Extract from 'Mastery of the Sauces'.) Fermented Soy beans + roasted wheat + aspergillus mold.
There are many types and names for soy sauce including Chinese, Japanese, Indonesian, Vietnamese, Pilipino, Taiwanese, Thai, Burmese, Malaysian, Korean and Singaporean with the Japanese company Kikkoman being the world’s largest producer.
Soy sauce comes in both light and dark styles.
Light Soy sauce is obtained from the first pressing of the fermented beans, is a lighter color, has a softer taste and is used as a dipping sauce and as a base for sauce making. Dark Soy is thicker and darker due to the addition of caramel and molasses, starch and sometimes MSG and is best used for cooking.
Shoyu on the label means wheat and Tamari means wheat free.
Like oils, Soy sauce can have first and second pressings or none at all as in the artificial soy sauces which are chemical brews. Quality is highly variable and graded as follows:
Top/Best Quality: Traditional, artisan or craft made: traditional centuries old artisan recipes made with non GM whole soya beans, natural fermentations, chemical free, wood barrel ageing. Time to make: 18 months -3 years. Brands include Megachef, Clearspring, Osawa Orgainc Nama Shoyu unpasteurized, Eden Shoyu, Yamasa. The Tastes are complex, delicate but strong umami with mild aromas and fragrance.
Average Quality: Naturally brewed: natural fermentation speeded up with high temperature heating in steel or plastic tanks for three+ months and the use of de-fatted soya protein meal rather than whole soya beans. When thin flakes of soya bean are percolated with a petroleum-based hexane solvent to extract its soya oil, the remaining by-product soya meal is the base used for naturally brewed soya sauce production. Time to make: 3-6 months. Colour is transparent light to medium amber with a sweet-salty flavour and delicate smell. Brands include Kikkoman, Pearl River Bridge, Lee Kim Keep. Avoid the naturally brewed brands with added caramel color, high added salt and hydrolyzed soy protein like La Choy and the Chinese Superior Brand.
Poorest Quality: Non-brewed or artificial: Most soy sauces found on supermarket shelves labeled generically as “soy sauce”, either light or dark, are non-brewed, mass produced, cheap and nothing like traditional soy sauce. They use de-fatted soya flour and rapid acid hydrolysis with hydrochloric acid, high temperature, and high pressure to create hydrolysed vegetable protein (HVP). They then add corn syrup, salt, caramel, artificial preservatives, chemical thickeners and artificial flavourings. Time to make: 2-3 days. The toxic carcinogenic chemical 3-MCPD is sometimes a problem in non-brewed soya sauce. Colour is opaque, dark with an intense, overpowering chemical taste and strong smell. Due to possible health risks non-brewed soy sauce should not be given to children and we do not recommend its use.

(Gramp, D & P. Mastery of the Sauces. June 2014 [D Gramp is eGullet member TheCulinaryLibrary])

Edited April 1, 2014 by Mjx
Citation added. (log)

[Norm Matthews]

despite all the discussion about what is and what isn't soy sauce and when it is used in different cultures, the original query was about take out packets that comes with Chinese restaurant food in the US.  Here is a link you may find useful:

 

http://kariout.com/product_list_details.php?id=13bb4c48d5c45b&productid=13bb4ca730e25b

Edited March 30, 2014 by Norm Matthews (log)

[Jaymes]

Also, those packets all seem to have some sort of artificial "caramel color," which none of my bottled, brewed soy sauces do.

 

I always assumed they have to add the color to the packets because there's not enough soy to make them brown.

[FeChef]

Also, those packets all seem to have some sort of artificial "caramel color," which none of my bottled, brewed soy sauces do.

 

I always assumed they have to add the color to the packets because there's not enough soy to make them brown.

I am sure you are right about that. But there is still more flavor then just salt, water, and caramel coloring. I personally dont care what is artifical and whats not. I am like that bizzare food slogan "if it taste good, eat it"

[FeChef]

Ok so here is an update. I made a batch of my general tso sauce that i love when i use those soy sauce packets.(yes i know general tso is an chinese american dish)

 

Anyway, i used the La Choy soy sauce and while it turned out better then using kikkoman, it still had a slightly unpleasant taste to it. Smell was not an issue atleast.

 

Anyway, i found a packet of soy sauce i normally get at my favorite place and its called Yi Pin. Whats strange is the ingredients. Soy is not even listed! It taste really good, i could drink the stuff straight out the packet...LOL maybe im crazy, but i like what i like, and you only live once. So anyway, i found a picture of the stuff so here it is.

[Jaymes]

I am sure you are right about that. But there is still more flavor then just salt, water, and caramel coloring. I personally dont care what is artifical and whats not. I am like that bizzare food slogan "if it taste good, eat it"

 

Actually, I wasn't trying to make any sort of point, positive or negative, about "artificial" ingredients.  I suppose what I was trying to say was that perhaps the soy sauce in those packets doesn't have as much soy; therefore, more to your liking.  That perhaps it isn't just what kind of soy you don't like, but the strength of it.  So, if those packets need caramel coloring to make up for reduced levels of soy, that could be part of your answer.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Jaymes (log)

[Shel_B]

I dont know why but love those chinese take-out soy sauce packets. I have tried all kinds of store bought brand names and i can not stand the smell and taste of them.  [...]

 

Anyway, I am hoping someone knows more about all the different types of soy sauce that could steer me in the right direction.

 

 

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=310552 - Maybe it'll help.

[pbear]

Anyway, i found a packet of soy sauce i normally get at my favorite place and its called Yi Pin. Whats strange is the ingredients. Soy is not even listed! It taste really good, i could drink the stuff straight out the packet...LOL maybe im crazy, but i like what i like, and you only live once. So anyway, i found a picture of the stuff so here it is.

 

Bear in mind that the "vegetable protein stabilizer" probably is soy based.  Indeed, if it isn't, I don't see how they can get away with labeling the product as soy sauce.  Whether it's "real" soy sauce is a different issue.  My understanding, based on an article I read a few years ago but couldn't locate just now in a quick Google search, is that U.S. regulators draw the line at soy-based rather than naturally fermented vs. hydrolyzed.

[SobaAddict70]

Bear in mind that the "vegetable protein stabilizer" probably is soy based.  Indeed, if it isn't, I don't see how they can get away with labeling the product as soy sauce.  Whether it's "real" soy sauce is a different issue.  My understanding, based on an article I read a few years ago but couldn't locate just now in a quick Google search, is that U.S. regulators draw the line at soy-based rather than naturally fermented vs. hydrolyzed.

Maybe these are what you're looking for.

(lurking in this thread and you got me curious enough to do the research.)

(h) The label of a food to which flavor is added shall declare the flavor in the statement of ingredients in the following way:

...

(7) Because protein hydrolysates function in foods as both flavorings and flavor enhancers, no protein hydrolysate used in food for its effects on flavor may be declared simply as “flavor,” “natural flavor,” or “flavoring.” The ingredient shall be declared by its specific common or usual name as provided in §102.22 of this chapter.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=1dac0ea0e60d0d0f4ef33fa877729d5c&node=21:2.0.1.1.2.2.1.1&rgn=div8

 

The common or usual name of a protein hydrolysate shall be specific to the ingredient and shall include the identity of the food source from which the protein was derived.

(a) “Hydrolyzed wheat gluten,” “hydrolyzed soy protein,” and “autolyzed yeast extract” are examples of acceptable names. “Hydrolyzed casein” is also an example of an acceptable name, whereas “hydrolyzed milk protein” is not an acceptable name for this ingredient because it is not specific to the ingredient (hydrolysates can be prepared from other milk proteins). The names “hydrolyzed vegetable protein” and “hydrolyzed protein” are not acceptable because they do not identify the food source of the protein.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=1dac0ea0e60d0d0f4ef33fa877729d5c&node=21:2.0.1.1.3.2.1.1&rgn=div8

(a) The common or usual name of a food, which may be a coined term, shall accurately identify or describe, in as simple and direct terms as possible, the basic nature of the food or its characterizing properties or ingredients. The name shall be uniform among all identical or similar products and may not be confusingly similar to the name of any other food that is not reasonably encompassed within the same name. Each class or subclass of food shall be given its own common or usual name that states, in clear terms, what it is in a way that distinguishes it from different foods.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=1dac0ea0e60d0d0f4ef33fa877729d5c&node=21:2.0.1.1.3.1.1.1&rgn=div8

If it isn't obvious, the first quote cross-references the second quote. The third quote is provided for context.

Edited March 31, 2014 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[FeChef]

I sourced those soy sauce packets somewhat locally (30 miles) and a case of 500 is like $5usd. I am just going to go that route from now on. They definely have a milder flavor/aroma then even that La Choy brand. I dont know if it has to do with being better quality (which i doubt) or its just that alot of people dont care for the strong flavor of "authentic" soy sauce/s. Its probably specificly made to be a salt substitute with a hint of soy sauce flavor. I mean now that i think about it, I have never seen salt packets, or salt shakers in any chinese take out places. Obviously im in the minority of people that dont care for super strong flavor "authentic" quality soy sauce.