Food/Flavor pairing: Science? Luck? Geography?

[umami5]

My question about food pairing is that pairing food mostly does not work without adding a few other seasonings.

dcarch

For me I find that the exercise is does work in general but as with any cooking, it is about creating a balanced dish using this information available as a guide?

[umami5]

My thesis "Working Title: An investigation into food pairing and why certain foods and flavours complement each other (In Western Society)"

I have designed a short 10 question survey for now and I would very much appreciated if you could take the time to fill out this survey and share it for me.

Thank you

[SylviaLovegren]

Done. A question for you, though... Is chicken and corn a pairing in England? It isn't, particularly, in the States, although no one would sneer at you if you served it there. But it's certainly not in the "roast pork and applesauce" pairing class.

[IAte]

Banana + Tomato + Peppermint + Strawberry + Bergamot

This combination can cause problems to people who suffer of hyperacidity. Banana, tomato, strawberry - this all, especially when they come together - might be too agressive or even cause allergies. Did anyone try this all to cook together?

[umami5]

Done. A question for you, though... Is chicken and corn a pairing in England? It isn't, particularly, in the States, although no one would sneer at you if you served it there. But it's certainly not in the "roast pork and applesauce" pairing class.

Thank you for completing the survey.

It's not a pairing that would get a lot of use but it is certainly a pairing that I have seen and works well.

Think of the old "Chicken Maryland"

Edited July 17, 2013 by umami5 (log)

[umami5]

Banana + Tomato + Peppermint + Strawberry + Bergamot

This combination can cause problems to people who suffer of hyperacidity. Banana, tomato, strawberry - this all, especially when they come together - might be too agressive or even cause allergies. Did anyone try this all to cook together?

These flavours can actually go together in a dish, it is all about finding a good/correct balance. The ratios at which the foods pair well will vary significantly.

I am going to create a dish that incorporates all of these and I will be doing some tasting workshops to gauge the acceptability.

[umami5]

Some of the unusual pairings that people have tried (from the survey

• Dill & Celery in a sweet dessert
• Elderflower & mackerel
• Douglas fir & rhubarb
• Chocolate & broad bean
• Beef & coffee
• Chocolate & parmesan cheese

[Katie Meadow]

How do you separate true flavor pairings from things that have an emotional grip or are seasonally available at the same time? Chicken and corn would not be considered a favorite pairing in the middle of winter unless you count fried chicken with a side of cornbread, but in BBQ season in the summer they are certainly linked in many minds and few people would say they don't sit happily on the same plate. I associate them together with new world soups south of the border.

What about cultural factors? I ate very little pork growing up in NY. The only time my parents ate pork was when they used Italian sausage as part of a tomato based spaghetti sauce. As for applesauce I would never associate it with pork, only with potato pancakes or being sick.Then I moved to New Mexico, where red or green chile is rarely far from any pork dish so I tend to think of spicy with pork rather than sweet. In North Carolina I was served country ham with a side of cooked apples; very salty with a side of sweet--yummy. As someone implied above, if you live somewhere that you harvest apples and do in your pigs in the fall, that would make for a likely pairing.

Mention was made of garlic, coffee and chocolate in combo. Those three ingredients are often added together to meat rubs, or various pots of southwestern style beans and/or chili, often with pork. As for bananas and tomatoes I can't imagine a more awful combination no matter what else is included or how it is prepared. Run for the hills!

[SylviaLovegren]

Done. A question for you, though... Is chicken and corn a pairing in England? It isn't, particularly, in the States, although no one would sneer at you if you served it there. But it's certainly not in the "roast pork and applesauce" pairing class.

Thank you for completing the survey.

It's not a pairing that would get a lot of use but it is certainly a pairing that I have seen and works well.

Think of the old "Chicken Maryland"

I had to look that up, because in the U.S. "Chicken Maryland" is a kind of fried chicken. Apparently in the UK it meant fried chicken served with corn fritters. Interesting!

[rotuts]

KM: excellent analysis!

[umami5]

How do you separate true flavor pairings from things that have an emotional grip or are seasonally available at the same time? Chicken and corn would not be considered a favorite pairing in the middle of winter unless you count fried chicken with a side of cornbread, but in BBQ season in the summer they are certainly linked in many minds and few people would say they don't sit happily on the same plate. I associate them together with new world soups south of the border.

What about cultural factors? I ate very little pork growing up in NY. The only time my parents ate pork was when they used Italian sausage as part of a tomato based spaghetti sauce. As for applesauce I would never associate it with pork, only with potato pancakes or being sick.Then I moved to New Mexico, where red or green chile is rarely far from any pork dish so I tend to think of spicy with pork rather than sweet. In North Carolina I was served country ham with a side of cooked apples; very salty with a side of sweet--yummy. As someone implied above, if you live somewhere that you harvest apples and do in your pigs in the fall, that would make for a likely pairing.

Mention was made of garlic, coffee and chocolate in combo. Those three ingredients are often added together to meat rubs, or various pots of southwestern style beans and/or chili, often with pork. As for bananas and tomatoes I can't imagine a more awful combination no matter what else is included or how it is prepared. Run for the hills!

Hi Katie,

Thank you for your input and you have raised some excellent points here.

I don't think that you do separate emotionally connected/paired foods or geographically paired foods. They are all important for different reasons, however foods strongly connected to memory or emotion are very personal and not easy for others to experience.

This is a section from my thesis introduction:

There are several factors which contribute to food/flavour pairing;

• Seasonality – grouse and cepes
• Personal taste – truffle and eggs. Some people just don’t like them and not all people have equally sensitive olfactory receptors, approximately 33% of the population cannot smell truffles (Barham 2001)
• Comparable flavour compounds – caviar and white chocolate, pork liver and jasmine
• Culture or religion – cannot taste certain food pairings such as pork and apple sauce for Judaism
• Geography – Nattō (Japanese fermented beans) and rice, dashi and umami

It is estimated that 20% of our gustatory experience comes from taste and the other 80% comes from smell and aroma.

Smell and aroma are some of the main reasons for memory recollection. (Proust's madeleine)

Grant Achatz uses burning oak leaves in one of his courses to evoke a memory of Fall.

I am basing my study on Northern European/American food pairing preferences, but i will be acknowledging the pairings form other societies/cultures.

I look forward to experimenting with my banana and tomato dish!!

It's all about the balance!?

Edited July 18, 2013 by umami5 (log)

[Katie Meadow]

Umami, just a couple of question on your above 5 listed factors.

How do you define "comparable flavor compounds?" What do caviar and white chocolate have in common?

Under culture or religion: what do you mean by "can't taste?" That sounds peculiar, and implies that cultural history trumps new experiences. Unless you live on a desert island and don't have any social contacts you will be exposed to new tastes and flavor pairings that you never had access to or simply never tasted before. Some of these new sensations will be exciting and positive, some not so much, depending upon about a million variables.

How much a particular pairing might be loved by virtue of it's nostalgia factor doesn't dictate whether anyone else will appreciate it when they finally discover it. I never ate a mayo-cheese-pickle on white bread sandwich until I was 50. Nor did I ever eat peanut butter slathered on a stick of celery. One I adore, one I find totally unappealing. Seems to me that if you are open to new experiences it won't matter how "personal" any given taste is; it will become your personal experience as soon as you like or don't like it.

[nickrey]

Katie,

As someone who grew up in Australia with vegemite, which is basically a umami and salt compound I was recommended by a Japanese waiter to try Natto, which I love.

I've given the opinion on other posts that because we grew up with a savoury flavour base, we are less likely to enjoy excessively sweetened dishes as, for example, someone who grew up on peanut butter and jelly may. When travelling in North America I find many dishes overbearingly sweet. This is common amongst many of my Australian peers. Not wrong but not in line with our flavour preferences.

I agree that people who are open to new experiences will try them but whether they like it or not is likely to be dependent on prior exposure and consequent taste preferences. We do not come to food with a tabula rasa. This is one reason why foods that remind us of our childhood, pleasant experiences, etc generate such positive emotions.

The "can't taste" in the previous comment was about religiously proscribed foods; the Leviticus-driven Kosher requirements for Jews; not eating beef for Hindus, etc.

As for the caviar/white chocolate question, this is the prime case cited as to why using shared flavour matches came about. The pairing was so out of left field, Heston Blumenthal went seeking a reason, which he found in partnership with food scientists in the flavour resources that I quoted earlier.

Edited July 19, 2013 by nickrey (log)

[Rico]

Also done. And I'm curious if you've got a specific garlic/coffee/chocolate number in mind.

ETA: Ah - I now see the above mention of rubs. I am nonetheless intrigued

Edited July 19, 2013 by Rico (log)

[Mjx]

. . . .

The proposed new flavour pairings are:

1. Banana + Tomato + Peppermint + Strawberry + Bergamot

. . . .

These flavours can actually go together in a dish, it is all about finding a good/correct balance. The ratios at which the foods pair well will vary significantly.

I am going to create a dish that incorporates all of these and I will be doing some tasting workshops to gauge the acceptability.

I would really like to hear your report on that combo.

I don't doubt you could work them all together in a dish, but when I think about their flavours, regions where each predominates, and various culinary cultures, it feels forced and kind of questionable (sort of like putting Darth Vader, Wolverine, Hello Kitty, Mad Max, and Bertie Wooster together in a room; you could write that book, but...).

What makes this seem like a good idea, or at least be palatable enough to be interesting? I'm not being sarcastic: you've clearly thought about this, and I'm curious about the sequence of ideas behind this.

[umami5]

Umami, just a couple of question on your above 5 listed factors.

How do you define "comparable flavor compounds?" What do caviar and white chocolate have in common?

Under culture or religion: what do you mean by "can't taste?" That sounds peculiar, and implies that cultural history trumps new experiences. Unless you live on a desert island and don't have any social contacts you will be exposed to new tastes and flavor pairings that you never had access to or simply never tasted before. Some of these new sensations will be exciting and positive, some not so much, depending upon about a million variables.

How much a particular pairing might be loved by virtue of it's nostalgia factor doesn't dictate whether anyone else will appreciate it when they finally discover it. I never ate a mayo-cheese-pickle on white bread sandwich until I was 50. Nor did I ever eat peanut butter slathered on a stick of celery. One I adore, one I find totally unappealing. Seems to me that if you are open to new experiences it won't matter how "personal" any given taste is; it will become your personal experience as soon as you like or don't like it.

Hi Katie,

Thanks again for adding to the discussion.

• In relation to the comparable flavours, e.g. Caviar and white chocolate, it is the reasons given by Nickrey above and investigated by Heston. Caviar and white chocolate contain similar trimethylamines. This was the "Eureka" moment for Heston which started the analysis of other foods to compare compounds.
• I probably should have been clearer in my "can't taste" statement, and again Nickrey was correct in his description, I was thinking of religion here and the fact that people cannot taste or pair certain foods.
• The point of nostalgia is that it is so individual, it can bring you back to a fleeting moment in time (Good or bad), the smell of your grandmothers baked bread, your mothers fresh raspberry jam, the burning of oak leaves in you neighbourhood. They bring you back in time and that one experience can never be replicated for someone else. They can appreciate the pairing of the foods or the taste, but not for the same specific reason that you do. A rhubarb tart with custard will bring me back to my mothers kitchen when I was 10, it can bring someone else to a different point in time and a different memory.

[umami5]

. . . .

The proposed new flavour pairings are:

1. Banana + Tomato + Peppermint + Strawberry + Bergamot

. . . .

>These flavours can actually go together in a dish, it is all about finding a good/correct balance. The ratios at which the foods pair well will vary significantly.

I am going to create a dish that incorporates all of these and I will be doing some tasting workshops to gauge the acceptability.

I would really like to hear your report on that combo.

I don't doubt you could work them all together in a dish, but when I think about their flavours, regions where each predominates, and various culinary cultures, it feels forced and kind of questionable (sort of like putting Darth Vader, Wolverine, Hello Kitty, Mad Max, and Bertie Wooster together in a room; you could write that book, but...).

What makes this seem like a good idea, or at least be palatable enough to be interesting? I'm not being sarcastic: you've clearly thought about this, and I'm curious about the sequence of ideas behind this.

Hi Mjx,

I have seen some "interesting" references to banana and ketchup on Foodpairing and the Huffington post aslo mentioned it in an article.

It will be interesting to see if I can create a dish that works for people!!

[Mjx]

Hi Mjx,

I have seen some "interesting" references to banana and ketchup on Foodpairing and the Huffington post aslo mentioned it in an article.

It will be interesting to see if I can create a dish that works for people!!

Do you know whether they share any flavour-bearing molecules, as in the example you gave previously, of caviar and white chocolate? Although I can't comfortably wrap my head around this combination, I'm fascinated by the idea that this could yield something palatable, or even better, delicious.

[umami5]

Hi Mjx,

I have seen some "interesting" references to banana and ketchup on Foodpairing and the Huffington post aslo mentioned it in an article.

It will be interesting to see if I can create a dish that works for people!!

Do you know whether they share any flavour-bearing molecules, as in the example you gave previously, of caviar and white chocolate? Although I can't comfortably wrap my head around this combination, I'm fascinated by the idea that this could yield something palatable, or even better, delicious.

Hi Mjx,

Using the foodpairing explorer I input fresh banana as the key ingredient and it displays a tree that shows boiron tomato coulis and fresh tomato among other flavours to pair with banana.

I'm not entirely sure how this is going to work yet but it will be interesting to experiment. I have a wide variety of heirloom tomatoes which I can also try in tastings

[rgruby]

I have a bunch of books that purport to explore/ discuss the whys of flavor pairing.

They include:

The Flavor Bible and Culinary Artistry by Page and Dornenburg.

The Flavor Thesaurus by Niki Segnit.

Taste by Sybil Kapoor

Taste + Flavour by Tom Kime

Flavor by Rocco Dispirito

Secret Ingredients by Michael Roberts

The Elements of Taste by Gray Kunz and Peter Kaminsky.

I'd categorize the first three as mainly lists of good/ traditional flavour pairings. The latter two books are basically cookbooks that have very brief discussions on the matter. The middle ones might be a bit more in depth, but honestly I haven't looked at them in ages. The Kime book also had a different title in its UK edition. None of them, to my memory, look at this subject from a scientific perspective. Herve This might have done some work along those lines. So maybe Harold McGee. I think McGee may have had an article related to your topic in a recent Lucky Peach mag. I could be wrong about that. Then there'd probably be lots of stuff in the industrial food/ scientific literature. I think McGee (or maybe Bourdain) recently wrote a piece about the synthetic flavour factories in New Jersey and some of the research done by/ for them. Those journals/ industry mags would be worth looking into perhaps.

Best of luck with your thesis!

Cheers,

Geoff

[nickrey]

Last night we had a very enjoyable degustation menu cooked by a newly arrived chef from France (via a stint in the UK at Hibiscus as head chef), Guillaume Zika.

The dessert he served was exceptional. It was a malt ice cream served with rhubarb and beetroot. The taste combination was exceptional and not one I've thought of or seen before.

[umami5]

Thanks for the info rgruby (Geoff)

I have looked into most of those publications but I haven't seen the Lucky Peach article or the piece on synthetic flavours that you mention. I will certainly look into these.

Thanks again

Cheers

[umami5]

Last night we had a very enjoyable degustation menu cooked by a newly arrived chef from France (via a stint in the UK at Hibiscus as head chef), Guillaume Zika.

The dessert he served was exceptional. It was a malt ice cream served with rhubarb and beetroot. The taste combination was exceptional and not one I've thought of or seen before.

that sounds like and interesting combination all-right. I really love the taste of those foods but have not tried them together. Do you have a picture of the dish?

Here is a picture of a dessert I had recently at Frantzen/Lindeberg it was composed of beetroot, blackberries, liquorice and balsamic vinegar (presentation pic, picture 2 ) an excellent dish

[patrickamory]

I filled out the survey - note that it forces you to choose one of the named options even when you want to fill out Other, so twice I had to pick one of the checkboxes and then point out that I wasn't actually selecting it under Other.

What struck me was the lack of Mediterranean flavor combinations... lemon, thyme, olive oil, rosemary...

[nickrey]

I didn't take a picture but it is easy to describe. Basically it was a quenelle of soft serve malt ice cream set on some finely diced cooked rhubarb is its juice with some beetroot sauce poured in a pool around the quenelle.

Edited July 21, 2013 by nickrey (log)