Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment, 2012

[paulpegg]

How long cooking at 62C does it take for the knife to get tender?

It depends upon the type of marinade he used. Knives don't take as long as stainless steel rods. LOL

[philie]

Instead of filling the pig's cavity with water, why not fill it with sausages like Heston Blumenthal's Trojan hog?

BTW there are large plastic bags for storing and compressing e.g. textiles, which have a valve and can be evacuated with a vacuum-cleaner.

That's actualy an excellent idea though the cooking time should adjusted

Heat the sausages to 75°C before filling into the cavity!

thanks to al of you for the tips!

would you say it is safe to do this process if the pig is eaten the same day?

[Merkinz]

Thanks for all the tips. I checked it this morning and the knife was still quite tough, no 'give' what-so-ever. Pitty my SV doesn't reach 1500°C... That'd get the knife nice and tender in no time. Don't think the beer cooler would hold up tho.

I checked the water this morning and I'd lost about 1 - 2 cm's so I topped it up a little with hot water. I had it covered with cling wrap to prevent too much water loss. I'm quite impressed how quiet this beast is! Definitely looking forward to tomorrow night.

@Rotuts: Cheers! I LOVE doing that kinda stuff so expect a few pictures in the coming months

[mmartine]

Hi! I need some help

I'm trying to make a deli style ham (for thinly slicing and putting on sandwiches)

The thing is that I don't want to cook an entire leg/ham and make an easter ham type http://hostedmedia.r..._CW10255D41.jpg but a fine, soft, evenly colored pink ham.http://www.themeatgu....JPG?1282812844

The challange is to make it without using additives like nitrates, starch, meat glue etc., to have a specific shape that holds together and does not come apart I would only brine it in saltwater with no spices and then cook it SV. It is suprisingly difficult to get info on this considering that the factories use a SV type method to prepare and mass produce it. I could't even find info in SV cookboks, Modernist cousine etc. I found random info from which I was able to extract that it is cooked at 70-72 degrees C. I figured out a way to make a "mold" for the meat to hold a square shape while cooking using 2 deep pyrex dishes for lasagna.

The main questions are:

For how long to cook it?

Should I cook the whole ham/leg deboned and with the white "membrane layer" or the connective tissue and excess fat removed or should I cut it into smaller pieces, remove everything but the meat, compress it all and then cook?

My main concern is the meat not holding its shape and falling apart after during thin slicing

The last question is: is it possible for the ham to have that nice pink hue without using nitrates, only salt?

If anyone made something similar, I'd appreciate some pointers.

P.S. I found some info on Prosciutto cotto but that's not what I'm trying to make

Thanks

Edited November 22, 2012 by mmartine (log)

[nickrey]

Hi! I need some help

I'm trying to make a deli style ham (for thinly slicing and putting on sandwiches)

The thing is that I don't want to cook an entire leg/ham and make an easter ham type http://hostedmedia.r..._CW10255D41.jpg but a fine, soft, evenly colored pink ham.http://www.themeatgu....JPG?1282812844

The challange is to make it without using additives like nitrates, starch, meat glue etc., to have a specific shape that holds together and does not come apart I would only brine it in saltwater with no spices and then cook it SV. It is suprisingly difficult to get info on this considering that the factories use a SV type method to prepare and mass produce it. I could't even find info in SV cookboks, Modernist cousine etc. I found random info from which I was able to extract that it is cooked at 70-72 degrees C. I figured out a way to make a "mold" for the meat to hold a square shape while cooking using 2 deep pyrex dishes for lasagna.

The main questions are:

For how long to cook it?

Should I cook the whole ham/leg deboned and with the white "membrane layer" or the connective tissue and excess fat removed or should I cut it into smaller pieces, remove everything but the meat, compress it all and then cook?

My main concern is the meat not holding its shape and falling apart after during thin slicing

The last question is: is it possible for the ham to have that nice pink hue without using nitrates, only salt?

If anyone made something similar, I'd appreciate some pointers.

P.S. I found some info on Prosciutto cotto but that's not what I'm trying to make

Thanks

The pink colour comes from the nitrites so you are going to get something that looks more like cooked pork than ham.

70-72 is going to be too hot. I'd be aiming for 60C if you want some colour in the meat.

If you simply mold the meat without some form of binder (eg Transglutaminase), when you take it out of the mold, it will fall apart (think what happens when a piece of meat is rolled and held with twine.

Bottom line really is if you want pink, deli style ham that sticks together in one cohesive block you would need to use pink salt and transglutaminase. I realise some people say that they don't use pink salt but they typically use a celery seed derivative which, surprise surprise, actually results in the formation of what you are trying to avoid - moreover, because the nitrogen levels vary between plants you actually have less control over the final level of nitrite than you do if you use pink salt.

There's a fact sheet on the nature and use of nitrites on the University of Minnesota's website here.

[mmartine]

Thanks for the input!

Take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy5wqjYSgCk

on min 1:42 they knead the meat to release proteins that make the pieces bind together. Wouldn't it work for ham too for binding the pieces without using transglutaminase?

You're right about the temp. As I heard, they use 72 degrees in the factory process but they use nitrites so that's probably why it stays pink regardless of the higher temp. Maybe it also has something to do with it that it's faster to do at higher temperatures and factories love to save time and money.

What I was thinking is if I used only salt and combine it with a lower temp like 60 degrees, would It be possible toget a nice pink color of the meat? After all, isn't sea salt a preservative similar to pink salt? I was thinking about brining the meat and injecting with saltwater.

Do you have any ideas on cooking time at 60 degrees?

I'm afraid of cooking it too long because I tried once with chicken breast (on purpose, just to see what would happen) and it turned into an excellent pate(I just added some butter and spices afterwards).

[lesliec]

How long cooking at 62C does it take for the knife to get tender?

It's a butter knife - it should just melt!

[gfweb]

Thanks for the input!

Take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy5wqjYSgCk

on min 1:42 they knead the meat to release proteins that make the pieces bind together. Wouldn't it work for ham too for binding the pieces without using transglutaminase?

You're right about the temp. As I heard, they use 72 degrees in the factory process but they use nitrites so that's probably why it stays pink regardless of the higher temp. Maybe it also has something to do with it that it's faster to do at higher temperatures and factories love to save time and money.

What I was thinking is if I used only salt and combine it with a lower temp like 60 degrees, would It be possible toget a nice pink color of the meat? After all, isn't sea salt a preservative similar to pink salt? I was thinking about brining the meat and injecting with saltwater.

Do you have any ideas on cooking time at 60 degrees?

I'm afraid of cooking it too long because I tried once with chicken breast (on purpose, just to see what would happen) and it turned into an excellent pate(I just added some butter and spices afterwards).

Sea salt won't give the pink that nitrate-containing "pink salt" does. Corned beef made with NaCl only is brown-colored and doesn't taste like real corned beef.

Pink salt really is a terrible name. What it really is, is a mix of NaCl and sodium nitrate/nitrate dyed pink to avoid confusion with table salt. Unfortunately there are other pink salts available that are just Nacl, but pinkish, and nothing like the curing variety. Lots of confusion.

Edited November 23, 2012 by gfweb (log)

[nickrey]

The names that it commonly goes under are Prague salt #1 or Curing Salt #1. This curing salt, which is used for meats that are cooked contains salt and around 6.25% sodium nitrite. Curing salt #2, which is used for uncooked products contains a mixture of salt, sodium nitrite and sodium nitrate. As gfweb says if it dyed pink to avoid confusion with white salt, although in Australia we also have a lovely Murray river pink salt which contains no nitrites. During the curing process the nitrites turn into nitric oxide, creating a pink colour when it interacts with the myoglobins in the meat. Nitric oxide acts as a preservative that works against the development of botulism. The elements that most people protest about in using this product are carcinogens called nitrosamines, which are generated through certain high-temperature cooking methods. Cooking properly cured ham at the temperatures you're talking about is not going to generate these.

As for cooking time, it depends on the thickest cross-section of the piece of meat.

[Merkinz]

aka: Insta Cure #1 & #2

[Ranz]

Guys, I need some info, if you can help.

I put in some pork ribs, but the crappy vacuum sealer was obviously malfunctioning, and the bags were partially filled with water after about 3 hours. I emptied them, cut the ribs out and rebagged in Ziploc bags, would that be OK?

[nickrey]

Your only issue may be dilution of taste. The cooking process works whether they're sealed in the bags or not as they're still surrounded by water.

[Ranz]

Your only issue may be dilution of taste. The cooking process works whether they're sealed in the bags or not as they're still surrounded by water.

Thanks! That's what I thought but when it comes to food safety it's always best to be sure

[rotuts]

i tried SV stuffing: good, not great; although would do more as I like a little stuffing with my turkey and have a lot of SV turkey frozen

I used my usual stuffing: Pepperidge Farm cornbread/granny smith apples/dried cranberries/toasted pecans/Jones bulk fz sausage.

as I cook the sausage in the stuffing mix, I used 1/2 the requested butter but the full amount of liquid. i make the 'stock' from Minors soup base: Turkey and a little Bacon. add Bell' seasoning to this et.

I realized the apples would not cook at 140 x 3 - 4 hrs ( a convenient setting - that of white meat turkey ) so I diced them and microwaved them until starting to be tender. they might have used 30 more sec.

made the mix and baged: 140 x 3 - 4. as I vaccum sealed I realized the stuffing would not expand, but continued on.

the stuffing had the usual great flavor, but was not fluffy. it did fluff up on reheating in a micro with some folk work. tonight Ill take some and fluff and use the toasted oven.

good in the AM with a SV egg.

Ill do this again as its easy, can accompany my white meat turkey in the bath, and will always be at hand for that turkey or for breakfast.

ps: I can see making this ahead and if I had a Vita-Mix it would work very well for the MC stuffing puree!

Edited November 23, 2012 by rotuts (log)

[Merkinz]

Sous Vide Short Ribs (The test rib)

OK so I got to chow down tonight on my first SV creation! Here's what I did and these are my thoughts:

I wanted to start simple so:

1x Beef Short Rib - No marinade or seasoning - Double bagged - cooked at 62°C for 48 hours - Removed from the bag, taken off the bone and trimmed - Deep fried at 200°C for 50 Sec (or there abouts).

Out of the bag:

Off the bone and trimmed up a little:

Deep Fry sear:

The goods:

The good:

+ It tasted fantastic! Very "Beefy".

+ The deep fry sear is nothing short of a revelation! Amazing crust.

+ Easy: just spray n walkaway.

+ Came off the bone REALLY easily!

The not so good:

- I thought it was still a little "tough" and fibrous. As you can see I cut it across the grain in the pic. I tried to do this with a regular dinner knife and it didn't really work, was a bit of a struggle and it kinda pulled it apart. It was the actual meat that was tough, not the connective tissue between the meat fibers.

- The deep fry sear sent some relatively large "bullets" of scalding hot oil just past my face!

- I didn't make enough and I'm craving another one... but it would be at least 48 hours away

- The butter knife didn't soften at all.

The follow up questions:

* How do I get the meat more tender? More time... say 60 hours? Or is what I'm experiencing "normal"... I can't say I've ever had short ribs before.

* Is that greenish grey stuff on the outside of the meat ok? do I need to wipe it off or do I need to trim it all off?

* What are your searing logistics / tips for doing 6 - 8+ ribs?

* Any other pointers?

[PedroG]

Above 60°C the thin collagen sheaths surrounding the muscle fibers shrink and squeeze the juice out of the muscle fibers, making them dry and tough. Try 48h/55°C-58°C (eventually 72h, but longer cooking time increases liquid loss, you have to find your compromise between juicy and tender).

[Ranz]

- The butter knife didn't soften at all.

I left mine in for around 60 hours and it was both tender and juicy. You could try that. Also, I shallow fried them, but that's because I'm not too comfortable with deep frying yet. Yours looks good though, I might try that next time.

[rotuts]

there are lots of replies in this thread on short ribs> try a search or just scroll away. you will learn a lot!

I use 130.1 for about 72. or take a few for convenience. i have yet to try the bone-out then fry. sounds very good!

[gfweb]

SV turkey breast. I'm very happy with the way the meat comes out, but am still working on the skin. On TG I SVd the breast at 142 F for 3 hrs (came out just faintly pink and pretty perfect) and then cooled it in the fridge and prior to serving warmed it up by frying the skin side in oil. It browned great but the fat was only partially rendered in spots. It could go longer but I worry about overcooking the meat.

Does the broiler method do any better?

[gfweb]

- The butter knife didn't soften at all.

I left mine in for around 60 hours and it was both tender and juicy. You could try that. Also, I shallow fried them, but that's because I'm not too comfortable with deep frying yet. Yours looks good though, I might try that next time.

Deep frying is easy so long as you don't have the pot too full of oil, watch the temp, have a lid and fire extinguisher at hand and remember to dry off the food pre-fry.

[rotuts]

gf: you SV'd the turkey breast with the skin on? that part was not clear to me.

then did the browning?

i have yet to incorporate skin into my turkey SV. Im thinking that the double silicone matt technique might be the way to go with saved skin.

[Merkinz]

@PedroG: Thanks for the insight! Although I did a lot of reading (books and this forum) about short ribs prior to this test run I read nothing about this (or I simply missed it!). This is helpful. I'll do the next batch at a lower temp.

@Ranz: I might stick to 48 hours for my next cook so I can see the effects of changing one vairiable (temp)... But I'll definitely try 60h on my following cook. Also I never deepfried until this year and I'm really getting the hang of it and realizing that it is not the devil I always assumed it was. ... And I just use a pot + thermometer.

@Rotuts: Thanks for your time and temps! ... Also thanks for prompting me to go back and read through some of the history here. I have skimmed a few dozzen pages here but now I'm using the SV index and search and I have at least a dozen tabs open now to read.

Thanks for the help everyone.

[gfweb]

gf: you SV'd the turkey breast with the skin on? that part was not clear to me.

then did the browning?

i have yet to incorporate skin into my turkey SV. Im thinking that the double silicone matt technique might be the way to go with saved skin.

Yes. I dissected the breast en bloc with skin on. Lightly salted it and popped it into a zip-loc bag that I rolled so the meat would cook in a round shape. After SV I then chilled it and and fried it up before serving.

Most of the skin was short of crunchy, but close to it. Some was still a little fatty.

[PedroG]

Above 60°C the thin collagen sheaths surrounding the muscle fibers shrink and squeeze the juice out of the muscle fibers, making them dry and tough. Try 48h/55°C-58°C (eventually 72h, but longer cooking time increases liquid loss, you have to find your compromise between juicy and tender).

@PedroG: Thanks for the insight! Although I did a lot of reading (books and this forum) about short ribs prior to this test run I read nothing about this (or I simply missed it!). This is helpful. I'll do the next batch at a lower temp. @Ranz: I might stick to 48 hours for my next cook so I can see the effects of changing one vairiable (temp)... But I'll definitely try 60h on my following cook. Also I never deepfried until this year and I'm really getting the hang of it and realizing that it is not the devil I always assumed it was. ... And I just use a pot + thermometer. @Rotuts: Thanks for your time and temps! ... Also thanks for prompting me to go back and read through some of the history here. I have skimmed a few dozzen pages here but now I'm using the SV index and search and I have at least a dozen tabs open now to read. Thanks for the help everyone.

Merkinz: here are two sources about muscle fibers and collagen shrinking at/above 60°C: Douglas Baldwin's guide "Effects of Heat on Meat" and McGee On Food and Cooking (2004) page 152.

[PedroG]

Deep frying is easy so long as you don't have the pot too full of oil, watch the temp, have a lid and fire extinguisher at hand and remember to dry off the food pre-fry.

Be aware that not all fire extinguishers are suitable for a fat burn, see

(start at 1:33). A fire blanket is safer.