Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment, 2011

[ishkabibble]

"Have you tried the torch then slow cook method? If not, I would try it before deciding that the seriouseats method is best."

I haven't tried the torch. All I said was that I liked the method I linked to. I'm not touting anything in particular, I'm just letting folks know that there is another chef with another opinion.

Have a Happy Holiday!

[vengroff]

I've got a rib roast in the fridge, dry aging it before Christmas Eve dinner (I hate turkey!).

Nearly all of the recipes I've seen oven-roast the meat at a relatively high temperature, then lower the temp.

But surely someone out there has done this sous vide, and then seared the outside under the broiler.

If so, what times/temperatures did you use?

I will almost certainly cut the roast in half, to about 2-1/2" or 62mm, for just the two of us. But the Sous Vide Dash says that anything thicker than 57m will exceed the four hour food safety rule.

But how much of a concern is that, really, since most of the oven-roasting times are at least that long?

Would pre-searing or blanching help?

The case you are describing is a really interesting one because it inverts the relationship we normally assume exists between time to temperature and time to pasteurize. By this I mean that the surface of the meat is pasteurized before the core reaches temperature. For think cuts like this where this could be an issue it is always worth trying one of the pasteurization options in SVD just to see what happens. Here's a screen shot of SVD for a situation like this:

We get a 100,000 to 1 reduction of E. Coli at the surface in 3h:15m but we don't reach medium rare at the core until 4h:43m. Looking at the curves, it looks like we might even be able to hit pasteurization within the six hour safety window. If we change the setting to pasteurize to core, we see that we do just make it in time.

So we can actually pasteurize all the way to the core within the six hour window even though we can't reach final core temperature in the four hour window.

The other thing to note is that the numbers for steaks are computed assuming a shape that is much wider than it is thick. Depending on how your meat is cut, it may be something closer in shape to a medallion (somewhere around half as thick as it is in diameter), which will actually reduce the cooking time quite a bit.

Shape really has a tremendous influence in cases like this.

[jmolinari]

I would think a rib roast would be more cylinder shaped than medallion-ish

[vengroff]

I would think a rib roast would be more cylinder shaped than medallion-ish

Certainly a whole one would. At 63mm it sounded like he might have cut a thinner one, i.e. just a rib or two. But maybe i misunderstood the geometry.

The bigger point is simply that you do have to take shape into account.

[jmolinari]

I would think a rib roast would be more cylinder shaped than medallion-ish

Certainly a whole one would. At 63mm it sounded like he might have cut a thinner one, i.e. just a rib or two. But maybe i misunderstood the geometry.

The bigger point is simply that you do have to take shape into account.

definitely.

What are the definitions of cylinder and medallion shaped?

We know "steak" has to be 5 times as wide and long as it is thick...what are the ratios for the other shapes?

[Mayur]

e_monster: Do you use a blowtorch? Any changes in the LTLT cooking time (still 200 F for 30 min/lb)?

[Mayur]

Also, do you still cover the pan tightly? Any water in the roasting pan?

[e_monster]

e_monster: Do you use a blowtorch? Any changes in the LTLT cooking time (still 200 F for 30 min/lb)?

I use an Iwatani blowtorch before cooking. I use the lowest temperature that my oven can be set to which is 170F. I use a probe in the meat to gauge progress and periodically turn the oven off for a little bit if it looks like things are moving too fast. Min/lb is not a reliable way to go since the shape and actual dimensions of the piece of meat are what determines the time. My last roast cooked faster than expected. It came out great, and our guests loved it, but I felt like it would have been even better if the meat had stayed under 110F for a longer period of time. After resting the meat for 45 minutes, I did stick the roast under the broiler for about 2 minutes with a ball of foil under the ribs to make the fat cap the part of the roast closest to the flame. The result was an extra crispy fat cap without cooking the meat at all. The last time I did this, the roast took about 4.5 hours to get to 120. I'd like to see if I can extend the time under 120F by another coup,e of hours to see if it makes a difference.

[Robert Jueneman]

I'm leaning in the direction of cooking the roast in the oven LTLT -- I still need to reread Keller and Blumenthal first, though. My Jenn-Air oven has a warming function, and also a drying function, that will allow me to get down to as low as 100F, so I could easily cook it to rare at say 125F/51.7C.

My brother suggested throwing some oxtails in the roasting pan after the roast was done. That would probably provide some additional drippings for gravy and Yorkshire pudding, assuming I remove the roast and then jack up the temperature to around 400F.

But here'a question for Vengroff -- would it be possible to modify the "physics" parameters of SousVide Dash to calculate cooking time in dry air in an oven?

Finally, a food safety question, and hopefully Douglas Baldwin is monitoring this. I've seen roasting times in the area of 10, 12, and even 24 hours for a full steamship round of beef, at temperatures that considerably less than the magical 131F/55C pasteurization point.

Now granted, this is an aerobic environment, so the anaerobic problems with sous vide won't apply. But how safe is this, really? Are we just assuming that torching or searing the outside briefly will kill all of the nasties on the outside, and then we hope and pray that the inside is sterile?

Bob

[Mayur]

e_monster: Do you use a blowtorch? Any changes in the LTLT cooking time (still 200 F for 30 min/lb)?

I use an Iwatani blowtorch before cooking. I use the lowest temperature that my oven can be set to which is 170F. I use a probe in the meat to gauge progress and periodically turn the oven off for a little bit if it looks like things are moving too fast. Min/lb is not a reliable way to go since the shape and actual dimensions of the piece of meat are what determines the time. My last roast cooked faster than expected. It came out great, and our guests loved it, but I felt like it would have been even better if the meat had stayed under 110F for a longer period of time. After resting the meat for 45 minutes, I did stick the roast under the broiler for about 2 minutes with a ball of foil under the ribs to make the fat cap the part of the roast closest to the flame. The result was an extra crispy fat cap without cooking the meat at all. The last time I did this, the roast took about 4.5 hours to get to 120. I'd like to see if I can extend the time under 120F by another coup,e of hours to see if it makes a difference.

I see. Do you find that covering the roast vs. not covering makes a difference? I would think that at such a low temperature, you would really be bleeding moisture out of the meat rather than boiling it internally.

[DouglasBaldwin]

I'm leaning in the direction of cooking the roast in the oven LTLT -- I still need to reread Keller and Blumenthal first, though. My Jenn-Air oven has a warming function, and also a drying function, that will allow me to get down to as low as 100F, so I could easily cook it to rare at say 125F/51.7C.

My brother suggested throwing some oxtails in the roasting pan after the roast was done. That would probably provide some additional drippings for gravy and Yorkshire pudding, assuming I remove the roast and then jack up the temperature to around 400F.

But here'a question for Vengroff -- would it be possible to modify the "physics" parameters of SousVide Dash to calculate cooking time in dry air in an oven?

Finally, a food safety question, and hopefully Douglas Baldwin is monitoring this. I've seen roasting times in the area of 10, 12, and even 24 hours for a full steamship round of beef, at temperatures that considerably less than the magical 131F/55C pasteurization point.

Now granted, this is an aerobic environment, so the anaerobic problems with sous vide won't apply. But how safe is this, really? Are we just assuming that torching or searing the outside briefly will kill all of the nasties on the outside, and then we hope and pray that the inside is sterile?

Bob

It's very hard to accurately predict heating times in a dry oven because the surface heat transfer coefficient, h, is too low (say 15–30 W/m²-K). For example, let's look at a variety of h values and see how it changes the heating time of a 50 mm cylinder to 54°C in a 55°C medium:

h HH:MM

10 07:10

15 04:57

20 03:58

25 03:24

30 02:59

40 02:32

50 02:15

65 02:00

80 01:50

100 01:42

150 01:32

200 01:27

250 01:24

300 01:22

400 01:20

500 01:18

650 01:17

800 01:16

1000 01:15

As for food safety, I just don't have enough data on how sterile the interior of intact muscle meat really is. Obviously there's a huge problem with mechanically tenderized meat. There are other reasons why the meat's interior might not be sterile, such as a dirty knife being used to exsanguinate the animal. The meat could always be pasteurized using ionizing radiation before rapid-aging (or rapid-conditioning) but the general-population's fear of radiation precludes this option. High-pressure probably can't be used because it'd denature many of the enzymes need in the aging process. I'm sorry I don't have a better answer for you. There may be research out there, but I don't currently have the time to look for it. I don't do rapid-aging myself but I'm a very risk-adverse person.

Edit: Fixed a typo and added more h values.

Edited December 23, 2011 by DouglasBaldwin (log)

[Robert Jueneman]

Hi, Douglas,

I finally found Keller's blow-torch method -- it was in Ad Hoc at Home. But he is using a 270F oven, until the core reaches 128F, so his cooking time is about 2 hours for a two-bone, center-cut roast (about 4 1/2 lb.). (Sorry for the non-metric units, which I hate these days!)

Anyway, that's well inside the four hour rule, and the pictures, at least, don't show a bulls-eye effect.

It seems to me that cooking for say three hours at 110F, then jacking it up to 270 in order to cook it to 128 would be both safe, and very tender, due to the enzymatic tendering (rapid aging).

Next I'll check Blumenthal's various books.

[vengroff]

I agree with Douglas that it gets difficult to compute for a dry oven. A combi oven would be easier, but not many people have those.

On the other hand, it would be hard to do worse than the typical X minutes per pound guidelines one often sees for roasts, turkeys, and so on. Those guidelines don't even get the shape of the curve right. A formula like X minutes per weight to the two thirds power would be a lot closer to reality. Maybe that one small formula could be the basis for a simple app for those who currently use the less accurate method but would rather not do the math involving fractional exponents.

[e_monster]

e_monster: Do you use a blowtorch? Any changes in the LTLT cooking time (still 200 F for 30 min/lb)?

I use an Iwatani blowtorch before cooking. I use the lowest temperature that my oven can be set to which is 170F. I use a probe in the meat to gauge progress and periodically turn the oven off for a little bit if it looks like things are moving too fast. Min/lb is not a reliable way to go since the shape and actual dimensions of the piece of meat are what determines the time. My last roast cooked faster than expected. It came out great, and our guests loved it, but I felt like it would have been even better if the meat had stayed under 110F for a longer period of time. After resting the meat for 45 minutes, I did stick the roast under the broiler for about 2 minutes with a ball of foil under the ribs to make the fat cap the part of the roast closest to the flame. The result was an extra crispy fat cap without cooking the meat at all. The last time I did this, the roast took about 4.5 hours to get to 120. I'd like to see if I can extend the time under 120F by another coup,e of hours to see if it makes a difference.

I see. Do you find that covering the roast vs. not covering makes a difference? I would think that at such a low temperature, you would really be bleeding moisture out of the meat rather than boiling it internally.

Do not cover it while cooking. This would prevent the crust from forming properly. This will be the moistest, juiciest roast that you have ever had. You can find Keller's recipe online by doing a web search. I prefer cooking at an even lower temp.

Btw, Bob, as you have now seen, Keller's recipe is not a super long cook a la Blumenthal. So, his version doesn't run into any of the food safety issues that Blumenthal's 24-hour method would. Keller's method works great and has only a small ring of well-done meat on the outside -- which is quite tasty.

Douglas, another HUGE problem with trying to come up with tables for cooking in air is that the humidity, surface moisture, and currents in the oven have a huge influence. It took many failed attempts to cook a chicken to 140F in a 140F oven (following Blumenthal's recipe precisely) for me to realize that in the dry air that we have here that it was not even possible to get the chicken to 140F in a 140 or even 145F oven. But adding a humidity to the oven changed things a lot. So, I think it is a very hard problem to solve in a generalizable way.

[Robert Jueneman]

None of the four Blumenthal books I have had this recipe. I then searched the Internet, and found http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/A36869494, which was quite informative.

Basically, he is cooking the roast at 55C/130F for around 20 hours, after first torching it. But to my taste, 55C is just a little bit too medium rare, although it is at the pasteurization temperature, so presumably it is safe.

I'm inclined to split the difference, which is more or less what e_monster has done. Instead of cooking it at 270F a la Keller, I think I'll try 120F for three hours to rapid age and tenderize it, and then 200F for another three hours or so, monitoring the temperature all of the while. If it hasn't come up to say 53C/127F after six hours, I guess I could pop it in the microwave briefly to finish heating it, or just slice it and add piping hot gravy.

I had never heard of the "wing" rib of beef before. Apparently it is the front-most sirloin cut. The piece I have is rounded at one end and cut square at the other -- I don't know what it is called. I may cut it in half, and do this again for New Years.

I assume that I should trim the "aged" outer shell before torching it -- true?

[e_monster]

Hi Bob,

Whatever you do DON'T pop it in the microwave (this is coming from someone that loves microwaves). Even a short time will undo a lot of the yumminess. You are better off tracking the temperature over time and making a prediction based on the data you are getting and a few hours ahead of time, adjust the cooking temperature as needed -- keep in mind that the internal temperature will rise for something like 45 minutes after you remove it from the oven.

None of the four Blumenthal books I have had this recipe. I then searched the Internet, and found http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/A36869494, which was quite informative.

Basically, he is cooking the roast at 55C/130F for around 20 hours, after first torching it. But to my taste, 55C is just a little bit too medium rare, although it is at the pasteurization temperature, so presumably it is safe.

I'm inclined to split the difference, which is more or less what e_monster has done. Instead of cooking it at 270F a la Keller, I think I'll try 120F for three hours to rapid age and tenderize it, and then 200F for another three hours or so, monitoring the temperature all of the while. If it hasn't come up to say 53C/127F after six hours, I guess I could pop it in the microwave briefly to finish heating it, or just slice it and add piping hot gravy.

I had never heard of the "wing" rib of beef before. Apparently it is the front-most sirloin cut. The piece I have is rounded at one end and cut square at the other -- I don't know what it is called. I may cut it in half, and do this again for New Years.

I assume that I should trim the "aged" outer shell before torching it -- true?

[Robert Jueneman]

Whatever you do DON'T pop it in the microwave (this is coming from someone that loves microwaves). Even a short time will undo a lot of the yumminess. You are better off tracking the temperature over time and making a prediction based on the data you are getting and a few hours ahead of time, adjust the cooking temperature as needed -- keep in mind that the internal temperature will rise for something like 45 minutes after you remove it from the oven.

Good point. Thanks.

[vengroff]

I've got a rib roast in the fridge, dry aging it before Christmas Eve dinner (I hate turkey!).

Nearly all of the recipes I've seen oven-roast the meat at a relatively high temperature, then lower the temp.

But surely someone out there has done this sous vide, and then seared the outside under the broiler.

I did something close to this Christmas day with a couple of cotes de beouf. The thicker one was 58mm, the thinner one 55. SVD said

just under three hours to a temp of 54.4C, just over four hours to pasteurize. I went for six hours to tenderize it a bit more, but still leave some structure.

Here are a few photos:

Trimmed:

Bagged:

Cooked:

Seared:

Served:

Gone:

[Robert Jueneman]

On Christmas Eve, I fixed a rib roast, along with half of the country, I suppose.

I more or less followed the well-known recipe from Cooks Illustrated, including the oxtails and veggies for the sauce, but I modified the cooking times and temperatures. I used a rib roast that I had dry aged in the fridge for about 5 days, then trimmed off the dry spots.

I let the three-bone rib roast (2.1 kg) sit out for about an hour after removing it from the fridge, cut off the bones, seared it with a torch, and then reattached the bones with cheesecloth ties.

I then put it in the oven on "Drying" at 120F for two hours. In that time, the core temperature rose from 47F to 75F.

By then it was getting a little late in the day, so I jacked up the oven temperature to 200F, and set the alarm to go off at a core temperature of 120F.

I then let the roast rest for about 20 minutes before carving and serving it.

The results were delicious, the leftovers make great sandwiche. And I roasted a couple of potatoes and added then to the leftover gravy/veggies, and served that on top of fetuchine noodles, Delicious!

For New Years Eve, I'm going to try this again, but this time I'm going to cook a dry-aqed, torch-seared, two-bone rib roast sous vide for four hours at 120F/49C to tenderize the beef, followed by oven heating at 200F/93C. Depending on what the crust looks like, I may sear it again before oven-roasting, and maybe even afterwards.

c

[mmartine]

Hello everyone!

I am a new member at this forum and I want to say hello to everyone.

I am an artist from Croatia and a modern cuisine enthusiast. This forum has been a great source of info for me and I appreciate all the contribution. I have been experimenting with sous vide cooking with great results. I own a Addelice Swid circulator. I'll be sharing my experiments/recipes/results. Oh, and Happy New Year to everyone!

Ciao,

Mario

Edited December 30, 2011 by mmartine (log)

[Anna N]

Hello everyone!

I am a new member at this forum and I want to say hello to everyone.

I am an artist from Croatia and a modern cuisine enthusiast. This forum has been a great source of info for me and I appreciate all the contribution. I have been experimenting with sous vide cooking with great results. I own a Addelice Swid circulator. I'll be sharing my experiments/recipes/results. Oh, and Happy New Year to everyone!

Ciao,

Mario

A warm welcome! We look forward to seeing your contributions.

[mmartine]

This was my Xmas dinner!

I made a suckling pig. I split it into parts, placed for 14 hrs. in a water and salt brine. Cooked for 14hours @ 60c. and 10 more hours @ 68c. Then I used my blowtorch to melt some of the external fat and placed in the oven on highest heat for 10-15 min.

It was the best one I ever ate. Very moist and tender. It was like eating chicken that tastes like a pig.

[Moderator's note: discussion continues in Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment 2012]