Rethinking tipping culture

[Edward J]

Sounds interesting.

Problem is, after working 30 odd years in the biz, It never really works. Mind you, I only see things from the kitchen.

See, bullies pick on little kids because they can. Scam artists pick on seniors because they can. Yes, it's both illegal and immoral, but it happens all the time. It happens because they can do it.

Tell a server s/he has to take a table when they know it won't tip well and stuff happens. You can have all the meetings you want, and sign off on any document you want, but when a server realizes they won't make the perceived sum of tips, they leave. They leave because they can, and they know that they can make better tips at other places. You can't fight this, no signature on a document will change anything, they'll just quit. I've seen this happen so many times. It's a fact of life, young attractive servers will jump ship at a moment's notice when tips dry up, or when the grass is greener at a new place just opening up. Same for mature, well experienced servers. The hospitality industry has one of the shortest employment periods, typically under 6 mths.

True, some places have a common tip pot, where it is "illegal" for any server to pocket tips, it all has to go into the pot and later be distributed. You can make this clear at interviewing time, and will find that the majority of applicants will fail to take interest in the interview afterwards. This is one of the main reasons that so few restaurants are doing tip sharing.

[annabelle]

I didn't like pooling tips when I was a waitress. I was very good: efficient, attentive and took excellent care of my tables. There are always one or more servers who spend most of their time loafing, flirting with the other staff and eating on the clock. It pissed me off to have to share with them. As far as balky waitstaff goes; let them quit. There are hundreds more where they came from and refuse to give them a decent recommendation if they just walk on you.

While it's not the same thing exactly, I went through this a lot with salesmen, particularly the middling ones who had worked at other places and figured they could push me around because I am a woman. They got let go, too because there are always plenty of newbies who actually want to work.

You asked me what to do about balky waitstaff. I told you and then you told me it won't work. I really don't know what else to tell you. Restaurants draw a lot of young people, alcoholics, burn-outs, slackers, wanna-be actors and people looking for transient work. You have to play the hand you're dealt and sometimes you're trying to fill an inside straight.

[Pierogi]

*SNIPPITY....* We were taught to upsell. *.....MORE snippity*

This. THIS is why I loath, absolutely LOATH commissioned salespeople.

As a consumer, with a very limited budge, I KNOW, believe me I know in painful detail, to the penny, how much I can afford to spend on whatever purchase I'm considering; car, computer, cell phone, house, whatever. I've crunched the numbers, I know where I can skrimp and cut to make it work. I also know what features I absolutely must have in that commodity (heated seats, not so much, I live in SoCal, air conditioning, an absolute for the same reason). Don't pressure me into whizz-bangs I'll never use. Don't tell me that it'll only add up to pennies a day extra----I already have *PLANS* for those extra pennies.

I'm sorry that people have to work on commission. It must suck, but I will go out of my way not to patronize them. It's why my last 2 cars have been Saturns. No haggling. No upselling. It was wonderful. I don't know what I'll do when my little red wagon dies.....

And it's also why I avoid restaurants that agressively upsell me (would you like foie on that......maybe some truffle.....oh, THIS cabernet is much superior to the one you've chosen) like the plague. If I actually HAD the extra coin to spring for the foie, or the truffle, or the $250 bottle of cab, believe me I would. But get out of my face if I can't.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Pierogi (log)

[annabelle]

I was talking about waiting tables in that comment you snipped, Pierogi.

Hating salespeople? That's rather aggressive, don't you think? They're just working for a living like everyone else and it is hard work and not dishonest as is often portrayed in the media and anecdotes.

[radtek]

Servers and Bartenders are sales-people. If a tip ain't a commission then what is it.

[annabelle]

Exactly.

[Edward J]

Yeah-butt...

You don't tip the guy who just sold you $300.00 worth of computer stuff, do you?

[radtek]

I tipped my broker last month. He probably didn't realize that is what I did but he has been doing a lot of work for my estate without compensation. So I felt a little commission was in order.

[annabelle]

All salespeople, regardless of the rhetoric put out by their employers (cf. Saturn) receive a commission on sales. Employees of companies who tout to the public that they don't negotiate, that their salesmen receive no commissions are telling a pack of lies. The salespeople are paid a flat commission on each sale. You could starve to death selling Saturns and it is part and parcel of the company's demise. No one with any talent or ambition was going to work there.

Computers, jewelry, and furniture all have huge mark-ups, many times as much as 300x costs. The same is true of medical equipment and restaurant equipment. In restaurants we are talking from stoves to refrigeration units to table linens, glassware and artwork. Yet people do not insist that their doctor, dentist, broker, jeweler or restaurantuer is screwing them over.

Waiting tables is a sales job, as is bartending. Restaurant employees receive their commissions/tips in cash at time of sale, whereas persons selling big ticket items such as homes, vehicles, medical equipment, et al will be paid when a lender funds the contract.

[Edward J]

Yeah-butt......

Say I went out shopping for a brand new luxury car. Honest Ed has it for 70 grand, and Honest Fred has it for 69 grand, same car, same option package, same colour. Obviously I'll go with Fred, or if I really like Ed, I could tell him that I can get it for a thousand cheaper and to match Fred's price. The thousand dollar difference is in the commission, and I'd be a fool not to take the cheaper price, right?

But in a restaurant, if the server get's screwed over his/her tip, it's a bad thing, socially unacceptable.

[annabelle]

It's not in the commission. Commission is paid on the gross profit of the unit sold, usually 20%.

Servers are tipped on the total check including tax, usually 20%.

We can do this all night.

[Edward J]

So then is a tip commission or not?

[ScoopKW]

I say it is a commission. Servers in the US are not very different from car salesmen -- they make a pittance of salary/hourly wage and must sell in order to make a decent living. The good ones upsell without being pushy.

"Chef fired the new harvest of scallops for us before we opened. And let me tell you, it was the sweetest scallop I've ever tasted." Or, "We just got the first legal kobe ribeyes that were imported into the US. They're not on the menu yet. But we have six available."

That sort of thing. When done right, the server is your "buddy," giving you insider info about the menu. When done wrong, business suffers.

[CharlieHorse]

Back when I waited tables, I used to tip out the kitchen if they did anything special, like hurrying an order that I forgot to send back or make something special. When I moved to the kitchen in a different restaurant, I would frequently put on a clean jacket and apron and check on the customer myself and the wait staff appriciated this. Sometimes they would tip me out, sometimes the customer would tip me, but that's not why I did it. I did it because it was importent to me that people eating the food that I worked hard to make were enjoying it. In fact, I would say that was my favorite part of the job.

[Rainee]

The tipping system is not good; it's broken. But it's the standard across the US, and I know I'm not going to be the first guy to move away from it if all my competitors are using it.

As an owner, it allows me to pay lower wages to tipped employees based on the assumption that they will make it up in tips. I think it would be better for everyone if I just paid a higher wage and eliminated tips, but of course I would have to raise all the prices to afford that, and like I said I'm not going to be the first guy to take that plunge. Even though tipping is assumed and most people calculate it into the cost of the meal, there is still a certain psychological shock from opening a menu and seeing all the prices 20% higher than equivalent restaurants in the area. Maybe one of the big chains could pull it off, but it would be suicide for an independent operator.

Is it fair that tipped service employees usually end up making a lot more than BOH staff? Maybe not, but it's not totally open and shut.

BOH is a harder job most of the time, no doubt about it. But it's an assembly line job. You don't interact with customers. The people who interact with the customers need to be the most motivated to smile, be attentive and pleasant, and provide a great experience. The people putting food on the plates need to turning out a consistent product for an entire shift. They are different kinds of people, motivated by different things.

And if we're going to have tips, having them as a percentage of the check is not necessarily crazy. The more high end the restaurant, the more FOH people actually contribute to your service (and from what I know almost every high end place has some form of tip pooling or tipping out.) The $80 you tip on a $400 dinner is getting split up between your waiter, the host, the sommelier, at least one busser/runner, maybe a bartender. Granted, the waitress at a diner probably works hard and I think for checks below a certain amount you should throw the percentage scale out the window and just leave a decent amount. But you are getting more service (hopefully better) from more people at a fine dining restaurant.

[Edward J]

...BOH is a harder job most of the time, no doubt about it. But it's an assembly line job. You don't interact with customers. The people who interact with the customers need to be the most motivated to smile, be attentive and pleasant, and provide a great experience. The people putting food on the plates need to turning out a consistent product for an entire shift. They are different kinds of people, motivated by different things.

And if we're going to have tips, having them as a percentage of the check is not necessarily crazy. The more high end the restaurant, the more FOH people actually contribute to your service (and from what I know almost every high end place has some form of tip pooling or tipping out.) The $80 you tip on a $400 dinner is getting split up between your waiter, the host, the sommelier, at least one busser/runner, maybe a bartender. ....

And with this, the great "apartheit" begins. Sales will always earn more than production, always has, always will. Thing is, the tip is a percentage of the entire dining experience, and although the server works very hard, they are not responsible for the entire dinining experience. True, the $80 tip may be split between the server, the host, the sommelier, busboy, and bar tender. But wait a minute, who else is providing for the dining experience?

Why is it that in the media, patrons are always depicted leaving the server a fat tip and instructing the server to "give my compliments to the Chef"?

Currently the tip is a percentage of the entire dining experience. That should change.

[PSmith]

As a Brit and a frequent visitor to the States, the US tipping culture is a bit turn off for us and many of our friends. Oddly enough we were discussing this the other week over dinner.

I am going to be spending a whole month in the US next year and I will probably (as per previous visits) be looking at buying food in the supermarket to eat in my hotel most evenings rather than faff about in a diner or restaurant. The most we will tip in the UK is 10% - sales tax is included. So often in the US (especially when we are on a budget) we have ended up spending so much more than the menu listings and what started off as good value, becomes an expensive meal out.

However, the above may be compounded by the poor exchange rate our £s are getting against the $ America has become expensive for us in the UK.

[Andrew]

I couldn't agree more with PSmith. As a Brit that regularly visits the US for pleasure and work the tipping culture is difficult to get to grips with. Having said that the UK 'standard' of just adding 10%+ to the bill whatever the service is like is annoying. The aspect of tipping in the US that really hursts is the attitude if you 'under-tip'. On a number of occasions I've been questioned as to why I only left 10% as though it was some sort of an insult.

When budgeting for a meal you end up having to add another 15-20% + any local sales tax and often whose costs are the difference between eating out or staying in.

Andrew

[vogelap]

My wife & I ate recently in Miami Florida at a good establishment. We were surprised when our bill included 18% gratuity. I've seen that done for larger parties, but never for a two-top.

Fine with me... As a culinary professional who normally tips 20% as a minimum, I appreciated the server indicating that they were worth only 18% gratuity. Saved us a couple bucks.

Then, of course, there was a restaurant in Cincinnati Ohio where we took a 12-top. The server said, "I am supposed to automatically add 18% for parties of 6 or more, but I took a chance with this table and didn't add it". He gambled and won -- our table's tip far exceeded 18%.

[ScoopKW]

As a Brit and a frequent visitor to the States, the US tipping culture is a bit turn off for us and many of our friends. Oddly enough we were discussing this the other week over dinner.

I am going to be spending a whole month in the US next year and I will probably (as per previous visits) be looking at buying food in the supermarket to eat in my hotel most evenings rather than faff about in a diner or restaurant. The most we will tip in the UK is 10% - sales tax is included. So often in the US (especially when we are on a budget) we have ended up spending so much more than the menu listings and what started off as good value, becomes an expensive meal out.

However, the above may be compounded by the poor exchange rate our £s are getting against the $ America has become expensive for us in the UK.

The difference being that your server in the UK makes a decent salary before tips. Here in America, the server makes next to nothing (with only a handful of cities, like San Francisco, bucking the trend). Your server also does not have the equivalent of the NHS -- they usually have to pay out the nose for health insurance on their own. Or, more likely, they do without. And the government taxes them on what it thinks they should be making in tips. If you undertip, the server pays more in taxes than they receive in tips. They are basically PAYING to serve you.

If you don't like those facts, by all means go the grocery store route. There is no harm whatsoever. But hurting your server financially because you don't like the way things work here is simply unacceptable. I don't like the way things work here, either. But when I go out to eat, I tip my server well. That is part of the cost of the meal. When I travel to the continent, I know that if I sit down at a cafe for a cup of coffee, it will cost more than if I have the coffee at the counter. I'm not going to whinge on about that on the Internet because that's how it works across the pond -- I can either accept it or drink my coffee standing up, with all the locals (which is what I usually do.) I also think the VAT rates in the UK come close to usury. I don't get ANY value added and yet I still have to pay the tax. I don't see why I should have to pay it. Again, I can whinge on about it. Or I can simply chalk it up to visiting a great country and pay the tax.

Our tip rates are the same as your VAT -- an annoyance for visitors but quite necessary for locals. Quit whinging and unrivet that wallet.

[Dave Hatfield]

If you don't like the tipping culture in the Us as you say then why don't you try to do something about it?

As an American living in Europe I'm no longer used to HAVING to tip in restaurants in the states. I do it when there because I know if I don't then my server will suffer as a result. I must say, however, that I hate doing it. Why can't American restaurants just pay their servers a decent wage and adjust their prices accordingly?

I strongly suspect that US restaurants which placed a clear and obvious statement on their menus saying that service was included and that any tip would be for above average service would do very well. They would not lose business because their prices were higher as most people are intelligent enough to understand that the total cost of a meal is what counts not the menu price plus 15% or more for the tip and resent having to pay a large tip.

Also, tipping flies against fundamental economics. Why should one pay 15% for a meal costing $20.00 per person and pay the same percentage for a meal that costs $100.00 per person? Has the waitperson who served the cheaper meal expended less time & energy? Five times less? I don't think so.

Your comparison of VAT to tipping is very naive. VAT is analogous to sales tax and thus trying to compare it to tipping is false. I don't much like VAT either, nor do I like sales taxes, but neither has anything to do with paying a person a decent wage for doing a decent job.

I'd love to see an anti-tipping movement in the US. I suspect that most US restaurant customers would as well. Probably so would most servers other than, perhaps, those who work in very high end restaurant.

[annabelle]

This has been covered in this thread a few pages back. It is the servers themselves who are NOT advocating for higher wages because they make most of their wages in cash tips. Serving table in the US is a transient job for most. It is something people do between jobs, as a second job or while going to school. Certainly it isn't a path to riches unless one is a thief.

If we are going to stumble off into the weeds of VATs and the "merits" of the NHS, I believe we have gone far afield of the intent of this thread and straight on into social engineering.

[ScoopKW]

I disagree. Every country has their "screwage" for visitors. The cost of a cup of coffee sitting in a piazza in Italy compared to buying it at the counter for instance. It's silly that the same coffee costs fives times more if I want to sit down to drink it. The VAT in the UK. It's ubiquitous. And VAT adds FAR MORE to the cost of one of my trips to England than tipping at restaurants adds to a foreign visitor's US visit. The difference is, I pay the tax without complaint. I knew about the tax before arriving. My options are either "pay" or "not travel to the UK."

You know how things work in America. Your options are either "pay," "not travel to America," and we give you other options -- "Be a miserly yob and not tip." "Eat at fast food restaurants that don't have a tipping culture." "Buy food at markets and cook it yourself."

You can get around our cultural annoyances when you visit. I cannot get around yours. I don't think foreign visitors have ANY right to whinge considering the expenses I am expected to quietly accept when I visit their country.

Your comparison of VAT to tipping is very naive. VAT is analogous to sales tax and thus trying to compare it to tipping is false. I don't much like VAT either, nor do I like sales taxes, but neither has anything to do with paying a person a decent wage for doing a decent job.

I'd love to see an anti-tipping movement in the US. I suspect that most US restaurant customers would as well. Probably so would most servers other than, perhaps, those who work in very high end restaurant.

[Jaymes]

This has been covered in this thread a few pages back. It is the servers themselves who are NOT advocating for higher wages because they make most of their wages in cash tips. Serving table in the US is a transient job for most. It is something people do between jobs, as a second job or while going to school.

That's been my experience also. And I have three children, all of whom have worked at one time or another in restaurants, including one that has made it his career. They like the tipping culture, for various reasons. They believe earnestly that if they work extra hard, they'll make more than their colleagues that don't and they appreciate and take advantage of that opportunity. They like going home from day one at a new job with cash in their pockets - no waiting two or four weeks for that first paycheck. They like the notion that if they are in need of some quick cash, they can pick up a couple of extra shifts and they've got it right away.

I seriously believe that if there were a huge and determined groundswell from the server population to end tipping as we know it, it would end pretty quickly.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Jaymes (log)

[Jaymes]

Oh, and...

As a Brit and a frequent visitor to the States, the US tipping culture is a bit turn off for us and many of our friends. Oddly enough we were discussing this the other week over dinner.

I am going to be spending a whole month in the US next year and I will probably (as per previous visits) be looking at buying food in the supermarket to eat in my hotel most evenings rather than faff about in a diner or restaurant. The most we will tip in the UK is 10% - sales tax is included. So often in the US (especially when we are on a budget) we have ended up spending so much more than the menu listings and what started off as good value, becomes an expensive meal out.

For "turned off" Brits, sorry, but I just can't sympathize. I mean, you don't sound like a fool or a rube or a neophyte traveler and I wouldn't think your friends with whom you were "discussing this the other week over dinner" likely are, either. I suppose I can understand one surprising evening out in a US restaurant (although, frankly, I'd think even that would have been avoided by the sort of advance "when-in-Rome" research into foreign cultures that most experienced travelers do as a matter of routine before a first visit to a new destination) but, after one meal here, surely you realized that there is a sales tax and that most often the tip hasn't been added and you're expected to do it, and that there is a customary amount.

I mean, no matter where you eat out, don't you do a mental calculation of the listed prices of the items you're ordering? How hard is it to quickly calculate 10% of that total? I'm pretty bad at math and I can do it in a snap. So, add that 10% to your total and a bit of tax (with which I know for a fact Brits are familiar), and that's your absolute minimum, assuming you get bad service. It's equally easy math to double that 10% tip amount to 20% and add that to your total. Again, even I can do that with no difficulty whatsoever. That's your maximum for your meal, unless you've fallen in love with your server and want to pay her/his apartment rent for the month. Amounts in-between the minimum and maximum are at your discretion, depending upon how good or bad the service is.

I'm sorry, but I just don't get what your problem is. You know the system. You're capable of doing it. You should no longer be surprised with the cost of an evening in a US restaurant. You might not like it, but that's always going to be the case when you travel. It's always something. I'm a female; do you think I like having to walk around stiflingly-hot Arab countries in a headscarf? And being ignored by male shopkeepers? How would you like that? A "bit of a turn-off" maybe?

You're always going to find at least a few things (and often many more than a few) that you like much better back home. If you don't want to deal with that, stay home.

PS, By the way... Yes, I'm happy I can now actually breathe in British pubs and no longer have to go right back to the hotel and wrap my evening's clothing tightly into a plastic bag (and either find a place to wash them or not get to wear them again on this vacation) and take a shower no matter what time it is so that my hair doesn't stink so badly that I can't sleep and spend the entire next day with a nicotine hangover and coughing my guts up. But even when that was the case (and I can assure you that "a bit of a turn-off" didn't come anywhere close to describing how I felt about it), and I knew to expect it, I still did it anyway.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Jaymes (log)